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Date: 17 Jul 2006 16:33:43
From: motobri
Subject: saison yeast stuck or done?
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I'm using white labs saison yeast, have been fermenting in my hot
garage for 2 weeks (anywhere from 75 to 85 ferm temps), I'm sitting at
1.020, and it's not doing anything anymore. Any suggestions as to what
I should do here?
Thanks
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 01:30:28
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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On 17 Jul 2006 16:33:43 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com > wrote:
> I'm using white labs saison yeast, have been fermenting in my hot
> garage for 2 weeks (anywhere from 75 to 85 ferm temps), I'm sitting at
> 1.020, and it's not doing anything anymore. Any suggestions as to what
> I should do here?
There's not nearly enough information for anyone to know what is going
on. What was the OG? What was the recipe, including brands of extract
or mash temps (where appropriate). 1.020 by itself doesn't tell us anything
about whether it's done or not.
John.
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Date: 17 Jul 2006 18:28:45
From: PaulK
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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motobri wrote:
> I'm using white labs saison yeast, have been fermenting in my hot
> garage for 2 weeks (anywhere from 75 to 85 ferm temps), I'm sitting at
> 1.020, and it's not doing anything anymore. Any suggestions as to what
> I should do here?
>
> Thanks
Two things. A garage is too erratic in temperature. Swings in
temperature can cause any yeast to shut down but this particular strain
is especially sensitive. Also, this yeast seems to have changed in
recent times and is not as attenuative as it used to be. I used this
yeast for years and can no longer get it to ferment out like it used
to. I know a number of other homebrewers as well as a brewpub that has
had the same issue with this strain. White Labs has not been very
forthcomin about any changes they've experienced with the strain.
Paul
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Date: 17 Jul 2006 20:20:55
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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motobri wrote:
> I'm using white labs saison yeast, have been fermenting in my hot
> garage for 2 weeks (anywhere from 75 to 85 ferm temps), I'm sitting at
> 1.020, and it's not doing anything anymore. Any suggestions as to what
> I should do here?
>
> Thanks
>
WLP565 is noted for finishing slow. I normally allow 4-6 weeks to
ferment a saison before I keg or bottle it. Usually 2-3 weeks in
primary and the rest in secondary. Quite often it will "go to sleep"
for a week or two and then start working again. Sudden temperature
changes will make this happen. I have two of them working at the
moment. I start them at around 65° for 36-48 hours and then let the
temperature slowly rise to 85-90° over a period of 2 or 3 days and let
it sit at the high temp for the rest of the fermentation period. This
is essentially the way farmhouse breweries in Belgium do their saisons.
Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 09:07:26
From: motobri
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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I used 6lbs of munton dry x-lite and 1lb of muntons dry wheat.
79% apparent attenuation is what beertools says (i did have the recipe
in there...)
> IMO, most of the time a stuck fermentation will stick earlier though. I
> think it's going to be pretty rare that a yeast is healthy enough to
> ferment the beer out to 71% and then for some reason get stuck. Usually
> if you're having issues that cause a stuck fermentation, it will get stuck
> at something like 50% or less.
This yeast (from what i've read and experienced) is wierd. It went
ballistic after 24 hours, for about 24 hours, then did almost nothing
for like 4 days, then started up again. I thought it had something to
do with the inconsistent temperature in my garage, but there were no
big weather swings during this time either...
I did taste it last night when measuring, and it's still a little
sweet, but the flavor was as expected of a saison, so I think I'm
getting close.
thanks John, for your time & concern.
Brian
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2006 08:01:28 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 1.070 to 1.010 would be 87% attenuation, which is really high. You'd
> >> probably need a lot of simple sugars in the recipe in order to hit a FG
> >> that low. 1.070 to 1.020 is 71% attenuation, which would be fairly
> >> reasonable for an all malt recipe.
> >>
> >
> > the recipe does have 1 lb of candi sugar, which I replaced with regular
> > sugar since my LHBS didn't have any.
>
> Should be the same thing. The candi sugar that you buy in a homebrew
> store is usually just regular sugar anyway.
>
> > without seeing my promash stats, maybe the 1.070 is a bit high...I did
> > use 7 lbs of DME in the recipe as well, along with some vienna malt
> > steeped as a specialty grain.
>
> The OG sounds right. 7 lbs of DME and 1 lbs of sugar works out to ~1.072
> on paper (plus a point or two for the vienna) for a 5 gallon batch.
>
> > I have heard of people throwing in some nottingham to finish the
> > primary fermentation, but I'm hesitant.
>
> It depends on what's wrong (if anything). I think the biggest factor is
> going to be the brand of the extract. There is a large range of attenuation
> you can expect from different brands (anywhere from 55% - 85%).
>
> 71% attenuation (which your fermentation is at now) isn't too bad. Whether
> the 1 lbs of sugar should have caused that to go higher will really depend
> on the brand of extract used. If the DME you used had an expected attenuation
> of 65%, then your total attenuation of 71% when you factor in the sugar makes
> sense (sugar has ~100% attenuation). If the DME should have had a higher
> attenuation than that, you're likely stuck.
>
> IMO, most of the time a stuck fermentation will stick earlier though. I
> think it's going to be pretty rare that a yeast is healthy enough to
> ferment the beer out to 71% and then for some reason get stuck. Usually
> if you're having issues that cause a stuck fermentation, it will get stuck
> at something like 50% or less.
>
> You can try rousing the yeast, if you haven't done that. Just swirl the
> fermenter some in order to get the yeast which has settled out to suspend
> back into the beer. You don't want to shake it too much, just enough to
> swirl up the yeast. That might get them working enough to drop the OG by
> a couple more points.
>
> IMO, the only way you're going to go from 1.070 down to 1.010 using 7 lbs of
> DME and 1 lbs of sugar is if the brand of DME you use has an expected
> attenuation of ~80%.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 19:08:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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On 18 Jul 2006 09:07:26 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com > wrote:
> I thought it had something to
> do with the inconsistent temperature in my garage, but there were no
> big weather swings during this time either...
Even day/night will cause temps swings in an unheated garage. Usually not
as extreme as the outside temps, but you'll likely see some temp
fluctuations. Maybe this contributed to the stop/start behaviour of
the yeast.
John.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 08:01:28
From: motobri
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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>
> 1.070 to 1.010 would be 87% attenuation, which is really high. You'd
> probably need a lot of simple sugars in the recipe in order to hit a FG
> that low. 1.070 to 1.020 is 71% attenuation, which would be fairly
> reasonable for an all malt recipe.
>
the recipe does have 1 lb of candi sugar, which I replaced with regular
sugar since my LHBS didn't have any.
without seeing my promash stats, maybe the 1.070 is a bit high...I did
use 7 lbs of DME in the recipe as well, along with some vienna malt
steeped as a specialty grain.
I have heard of people throwing in some nottingham to finish the
primary fermentation, but I'm hesitant.
Brian
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 15:42:38
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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On 18 Jul 2006 08:01:28 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com > wrote:
>>
>> 1.070 to 1.010 would be 87% attenuation, which is really high. You'd
>> probably need a lot of simple sugars in the recipe in order to hit a FG
>> that low. 1.070 to 1.020 is 71% attenuation, which would be fairly
>> reasonable for an all malt recipe.
>>
>
> the recipe does have 1 lb of candi sugar, which I replaced with regular
> sugar since my LHBS didn't have any.
Should be the same thing. The candi sugar that you buy in a homebrew
store is usually just regular sugar anyway.
> without seeing my promash stats, maybe the 1.070 is a bit high...I did
> use 7 lbs of DME in the recipe as well, along with some vienna malt
> steeped as a specialty grain.
The OG sounds right. 7 lbs of DME and 1 lbs of sugar works out to ~1.072
on paper (plus a point or two for the vienna) for a 5 gallon batch.
> I have heard of people throwing in some nottingham to finish the
> primary fermentation, but I'm hesitant.
It depends on what's wrong (if anything). I think the biggest factor is
going to be the brand of the extract. There is a large range of attenuation
you can expect from different brands (anywhere from 55% - 85%).
71% attenuation (which your fermentation is at now) isn't too bad. Whether
the 1 lbs of sugar should have caused that to go higher will really depend
on the brand of extract used. If the DME you used had an expected attenuation
of 65%, then your total attenuation of 71% when you factor in the sugar makes
sense (sugar has ~100% attenuation). If the DME should have had a higher
attenuation than that, you're likely stuck.
IMO, most of the time a stuck fermentation will stick earlier though. I
think it's going to be pretty rare that a yeast is healthy enough to
ferment the beer out to 71% and then for some reason get stuck. Usually
if you're having issues that cause a stuck fermentation, it will get stuck
at something like 50% or less.
You can try rousing the yeast, if you haven't done that. Just swirl the
fermenter some in order to get the yeast which has settled out to suspend
back into the beer. You don't want to shake it too much, just enough to
swirl up the yeast. That might get them working enough to drop the OG by
a couple more points.
IMO, the only way you're going to go from 1.070 down to 1.010 using 7 lbs of
DME and 1 lbs of sugar is if the brand of DME you use has an expected
attenuation of ~80%.
John.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 05:58:42
From: motobri
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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You're right, but I was more asking about some of the characteristics
of the strain. However, I have researched a bit (first saison), and
would now expect that a saison would finish at ~1.010, given my
ingredients, which gave an OG of ~1.070. I'm at work and don't have the
recipe with me, er I'd paste it in here.
Thanks, all, for your input. I'll try giving the primary a few more
weeks and try to heat it up to 85 or 90 again.
Thanks
Brian
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 17 Jul 2006 16:33:43 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com> wrote:
> > I'm using white labs saison yeast, have been fermenting in my hot
> > garage for 2 weeks (anywhere from 75 to 85 ferm temps), I'm sitting at
> > 1.020, and it's not doing anything anymore. Any suggestions as to what
> > I should do here?
>
> There's not nearly enough information for anyone to know what is going
> on. What was the OG? What was the recipe, including brands of extract
> or mash temps (where appropriate). 1.020 by itself doesn't tell us anything
> about whether it's done or not.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 14:08:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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On 18 Jul 2006 05:58:42 -0700, <xbrian@mac.com > wrote:
> You're right, but I was more asking about some of the characteristics
> of the strain. However, I have researched a bit (first saison), and
> would now expect that a saison would finish at ~1.010, given my
> ingredients, which gave an OG of ~1.070. I'm at work and don't have the
> recipe with me, er I'd paste it in here.
1.070 to 1.010 would be 87% attenuation, which is really high. You'd
probably need a lot of simple sugars in the recipe in order to hit a FG
that low. 1.070 to 1.020 is 71% attenuation, which would be fairly
reasonable for an all malt recipe.
John.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 13:03:56
From: Joel
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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motobri <xbrian@mac.com > wrote:
>You're right, but I was more asking about some of the characteristics
>of the strain. However, I have researched a bit (first saison), and
>would now expect that a saison would finish at ~1.010, given my
>ingredients, which gave an OG of ~1.070. I'm at work and don't have the
>recipe with me, er I'd paste it in here.
>
>Thanks, all, for your input. I'll try giving the primary a few more
>weeks and try to heat it up to 85 or 90 again.
In my limited experience with the strain, it is a slow finisher.
And assuming good aeration and nothing weird in your mash profile
I'd look for a lower FG myself. I think mine started near 1.070
and finished, slowly, just under 1.010.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 14:42:25
From: (East Bay) Phil
Subject: Re: saison yeast stuck or done?
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I've made 2 with this yeast. First was OG 1.052 and ended around 1.011.
It stalled around 1.018 and I added US-56 dregs in 2ndary. this
brought it down. Air pressure really never stopped. Fermented at near
90F, this beer had all sortsa character and no noticeable fusels. I
wanted to get lower than that, but that's life.
Attempt #2 was 1.070 and is still on yeast at 1.018. It dropped that
far in under 1 week on the dregs of the first batch's primary (as kept
in the fridge >1 month). This one I will rack in a bit and then let sit
for as long is it takes.
Upshot: this is temperamental yeast. It likes a starter. Heat doesn't
ensure quick and total fermentation. Heat makes for a nice flavor.
Visible fermentation on this yeast is deceptive as hell. The flavor is
DuPont all the way.
Phil
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