| |
Main
Date: 25 Aug 2006 08:22:30
From: dutchbrew/chicago
Subject: reusing yeast starters
|
got this great idea from an old post on reusing yeast...
"3) When you make a yeast starter, keep some of the layer of yeast in a
sanitized container for next time, and pitch the rest into your beer"
I would think this method would allow you to reuse yeast a significant
number of times since the yeast cells would not mutate much while they
multiply in a small starter. Correct me if im wrong... The problem
with mutation arises when the cells multiply in a huge amount during
primary fermentation. Does anybody have expieriance with this method?
How batches have you reused yeast with this method? The biggest
problem i would think would be bacteria infection over time.
|
|
| |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 09:06:55
From: dutchbrew/chicago
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
> This is the method I use (was the quote from me?). However, I don't
> generally push it through a lot of reuses that way.
Yes the quote was from you :-). i generally make belgians and IPA's
... belgians during the summer since my basement sits around 72
degrees. Would you think 6 reuses is pushing it doing it this way?
|
| | |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 16:13:43
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
On 25 Aug 2006 09:06:55 -0700, <vroomski1@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>
>> This is the method I use (was the quote from me?). However, I don't
>> generally push it through a lot of reuses that way.
>
> Yes the quote was from you :-). i generally make belgians and IPA's
> ... belgians during the summer since my basement sits around 72
> degrees. Would you think 6 reuses is pushing it doing it this way?
It's really up to you. There's no hard and fast rule that says you can only
get X reuses anyway. There is a rule of thumb that says 3 reuses, but it
does not mean that you're guaranteed to get mutations after 3, it only means
that if you want to be reasonably certain of no mutations, then don't use
past 3. It's certainly possible to use the yeast many more times than that
with no real problems.
I think using the method of saving yeast from the starter will probably make
it less likely that you'll have mutation problems compared with saving
yeast from the primary. However, there's always the possibility that it'll
happen anyway.
You're never going to know for certain that you have a problem until you
try to make a beer with the yeast and it doesn't turn out right. The rest
is just a guessing game. If you feel comfortable with 6, then go for it.
If 6 makes you nervous and you feel better with 3, then use that.
John.
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 11:21:33
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 25 Aug 2006 09:06:55 -0700, <vroomski1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>This is the method I use (was the quote from me?). However, I don't
>>>generally push it through a lot of reuses that way.
>>
>>Yes the quote was from you :-). i generally make belgians and IPA's
>>... belgians during the summer since my basement sits around 72
>>degrees. Would you think 6 reuses is pushing it doing it this way?
>
>
> It's really up to you. There's no hard and fast rule that says you can only
> get X reuses anyway. There is a rule of thumb that says 3 reuses, but it
> does not mean that you're guaranteed to get mutations after 3, it only means
> that if you want to be reasonably certain of no mutations, then don't use
> past 3. It's certainly possible to use the yeast many more times than that
> with no real problems.
>
> I think using the method of saving yeast from the starter will probably make
> it less likely that you'll have mutation problems compared with saving
> yeast from the primary. However, there's always the possibility that it'll
> happen anyway.
>
> You're never going to know for certain that you have a problem until you
> try to make a beer with the yeast and it doesn't turn out right. The rest
> is just a guessing game. If you feel comfortable with 6, then go for it.
> If 6 makes you nervous and you feel better with 3, then use that.
Yep -- three is generally safe, but not only is it an odds game, but the
potential for mutation will vary from strain to strain. You can always
stop propagating if the starter seems funny after X generations (the
real advantage to resuing the starter as opposed to the primary -- you
can check before you pitch).
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | | |
Date: 19 Oct 2006 18:53:35
From: Derric
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
> Yep -- three is generally safe, but not only is it an odds game, but the
> potential for mutation will vary from strain to strain. ...
I've reused yeasts many time ... while there's no doubt that the yeast
will mutate, I think infection will be your real limiting factor.
The sixth time I pitched a certain yeast, I ended up with a lacto
infected beer. The yeast did well and the beer tasted fine at bottling.
By the time it was carbonated, it was very tart and within 4 weeks it
was undrinkably sour (but worked well to cook brats in!).
No matter how sanitary your procedures are, you almost always have
some component of bacteria. Eventually, those bacteria build up to a
noticable level. (If you have the equipment, you could plate and select
the yeast back out...).
So, IMHO, only repitch it about 3 times to avoid the bacterial infection
creeping up on you, and don't worry about mutation.
Derric
|
| |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 09:03:45
From: dutchbrew/chicago
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
> saved culture) -- but how well it works depends on how long you intend
> to go between pitchings, and the conditions under which the yeast is
> preserved.
>
I wouldnt wait longer than a month with the yeast in the fridge, then I
would make a starter and let it sit for 2 days app. and pour the
solution from the starter back into the sanitized tube, then pitch the
rest into the new batch again. Since the fermenting solution from the
starter poured back into the tube would be new cells, you think the
storage problem would be less of factor if max storage is only a month?
|
| | |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 11:15:59
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
>>saved culture) -- but how well it works depends on how long you intend
>>to go between pitchings, and the conditions under which the yeast is
>>preserved.
>>
>
>
> I wouldnt wait longer than a month with the yeast in the fridge, then I
> would make a starter and let it sit for 2 days app. and pour the
> solution from the starter back into the sanitized tube, then pitch the
> rest into the new batch again. Since the fermenting solution from the
> starter poured back into the tube would be new cells, you think the
> storage problem would be less of factor if max storage is only a month?
>
I think that's probably fine. I basically do the exact same thing -- but
on a bigger scale. Saves me the trouble of cleaning the primary and
making a new starter.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 16:00:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
On 25 Aug 2006 08:22:30 -0700, <vroomski1@yahoo.com > wrote:
> got this great idea from an old post on reusing yeast...
>
> "3) When you make a yeast starter, keep some of the layer of yeast in a
>
> sanitized container for next time, and pitch the rest into your beer"
>
> I would think this method would allow you to reuse yeast a significant
> number of times since the yeast cells would not mutate much while they
> multiply in a small starter. Correct me if im wrong... The problem
> with mutation arises when the cells multiply in a huge amount during
> primary fermentation. Does anybody have expieriance with this method?
This is the method I use (was the quote from me?). However, I don't
generally push it through a lot of reuses that way. Usually what happens
is that I'll use the same yeast a couple times, and then move on to other
styles of beer. When I come back to something that would need that yeast
again it's usually been long enough that I feel more comfortable starting
with a fresh supply. Not because of mutation concerns, but because of
viability.
I would probably agree though, that this method seems less likely to
lead to mutations.
John.
|
| |
Date: 25 Aug 2006 10:52:56
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: reusing yeast starters
|
dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
> got this great idea from an old post on reusing yeast...
>
> "3) When you make a yeast starter, keep some of the layer of yeast in a
>
> sanitized container for next time, and pitch the rest into your beer"
>
> I would think this method would allow you to reuse yeast a significant
> number of times since the yeast cells would not mutate much while they
> multiply in a small starter. Correct me if im wrong... The problem
> with mutation arises when the cells multiply in a huge amount during
> primary fermentation. Does anybody have expieriance with this method?
> How batches have you reused yeast with this method? The biggest
> problem i would think would be bacteria infection over time.
>
No -- yeast can mutate under a variety of conditions -- even under
extended cold storage. Actually, mutation is major issue during storage
-- I think it's one of the big factors that the liquid yeast mfgrs have
do deal with in the packaged product. It's not that I don't think your
idea would work, however (although you need to add more wort to the
saved culture) -- but how well it works depends on how long you intend
to go between pitchings, and the conditions under which the yeast is
preserved.
Personally, I repitch 2 or more beers on the same cake from my initial
fermentation. I've gone as far as six, but that's pushing it. Of course,
I don't wait too long between pitches, and the primary is kept
refrigerated between pitches.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
|
