| |
Main
Date: 11 Sep 2006 17:20:26
From: Joseph Love
Subject: noob: improving attenuation
|
hello all,
i'm still quite new to this whole homebrewing experience. as i sit here
drinking my first pale ale homebrew and going through my brew log, i was
looking for ways to improve my brewing process.
first off, like most newbies i am a partial-boil extract brewer. i
missed my FG by more than i was comfortable with. OG was 1.050, and i
was shooting from 1.010 to 1.014 and ended up with 1.020 after 10 days
in the primary. i decided to bottle as airlock activity was about 1 gasp
every 90-100 seconds.
i didn't use a started (pitched a white labs vial into 70F wort). i did
the good 'ol manual aeration before pitching. i had airlock activity in
around 10-12 hours.
ok, on to the question. any suggestions on improving attenuation what is
the most bang for the buck?
starter?
aeration stone?
full boil?
i only want to make one change for my next brewing session so i can get
a better understanding of the impact on attenuation.
thanks in advance
joe
--
Joseph Love
Portland, OR
|
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:20:26 -0700, <joe@gmail.com > wrote:
> hello all,
>
> i'm still quite new to this whole homebrewing experience. as i sit here
> drinking my first pale ale homebrew and going through my brew log, i was
> looking for ways to improve my brewing process.
>
> first off, like most newbies i am a partial-boil extract brewer. i
> missed my FG by more than i was comfortable with. OG was 1.050, and i
> was shooting from 1.010 to 1.014 and ended up with 1.020 after 10 days
> in the primary. i decided to bottle as airlock activity was about 1 gasp
> every 90-100 seconds.
Keep in mind that the FG posted with a recipe is only a guess. Also, the
bubbling in the airlock doesn't really mean anything. IMO, a much better
way to decide when it's time to bottle is by monitoring the SG and waiting
until it's consistent over several days. IE, when you think it's done
take a SG reading. Then wait a couple days and take another reading. If
they're the same, and you've achieved a reasonable attenuation, then it's
time to bottle.
> i didn't use a started (pitched a white labs vial into 70F wort). i did
> the good 'ol manual aeration before pitching. i had airlock activity in
> around 10-12 hours.
>
> ok, on to the question. any suggestions on improving attenuation what is
> the most bang for the buck?
>
> starter?
> aeration stone?
> full boil?
The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort, specifically
the ratio of complex/simple sugars. In extract brewing, this is controlled
by the brand of extract that you use. Some are known for very low
attenuations (IE a lot of unfermentable complex sugars relative to fermentable
simple ones). Switching to a different brand, or substituting some of the
extract with plain sugar would be ways to address the attenuation.
Making a starter and good aeration will help the yeast attenuate more, but
this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
using. I don't think full boil vs partial boil would make much difference.
What brand of extract are you currently using?
John.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 09:56:53
From: Joseph Love
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52 GMT, spam@shagg.net said...
>
> Keep in mind that the FG posted with a recipe is only a guess. Also, the
> bubbling in the airlock doesn't really mean anything. IMO, a much better
> way to decide when it's time to bottle is by monitoring the SG and waiting
> until it's consistent over several days. IE, when you think it's done
> take a SG reading. Then wait a couple days and take another reading. If
> they're the same, and you've achieved a reasonable attenuation, then it's
> time to bottle.
i haven't purchased a thief yet (on my list for the next trip to the
LHBS) and i'm a bit scared about contamination with taking multiple
gavity readings from the primary (still debating when to start racking
to a secondary).
> > ok, on to the question. any suggestions on improving attenuation what is
> > the most bang for the buck?
> >
> > starter?
> > aeration stone?
> > full boil?
>
> The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort, specifically
> the ratio of complex/simple sugars. In extract brewing, this is controlled
> by the brand of extract that you use. Some are known for very low
> attenuations (IE a lot of unfermentable complex sugars relative to fermentable
> simple ones). Switching to a different brand, or substituting some of the
> extract with plain sugar would be ways to address the attenuation.
>
> Making a starter and good aeration will help the yeast attenuate more, but
> this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
> using. I don't think full boil vs partial boil would make much difference.
>
> What brand of extract are you currently using?
currently i'm using briess amber lme for my brewing.
thanks for the guidance,
joe
--
Joseph Love
Portland, OR
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 17:14:45
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:56:53 -0700, <joe@gmail.com > wrote:
> i haven't purchased a thief yet (on my list for the next trip to the
> LHBS) and i'm a bit scared about contamination with taking multiple
> gavity readings from the primary (still debating when to start racking
> to a secondary).
IMO, taking a gravity reading should not create a significant contamination
risk. Many beginners are concerned by this, but I don't think it's something
you really need to be worried about.
Regarding when to rack to secondary... it's really up to you. There's no
exact "right" time to rack. Mostly it's about convenience. Personally I
like to leave my beers in the primary for around a week, or rack when
the krausen falls, whichever is more convenient at the time.
>> What brand of extract are you currently using?
>
> currently i'm using briess amber lme for my brewing.
Briess extract isn't one that is known poor fermentability. IMO, you should
probably be getting more attenuation out of it than you are. In that case,
I'd start looking at your yeast health. Think about making a starter and
getting better aeration.
John.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 15:04:18
From: Norm J
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:
>
>The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort, specifically
>the ratio of complex/simple sugars....Making a starter and good aeration will help the yeast attenuate more, but
>this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
>using.
You can quite easily wind up with poor attenuation if yeast health is
poor even with a very fermentable wort. Pitching a vial of liquid
yeast is putting faith in the viability of the yeast in the vial. If
that yeast was close to expiration date, and/or was stored poorly you
could have much less viable yeast than a fresh vial would give and
then if not adequately aerated the aerobic growth cycle is stunted. In
this case the yeast will ferment poorly and this could easily be what
happened to Joseph.
Before shopping around for different extract I would pay attention to
yeast health and eliminate that as a source of problem. From what I
have read of some tests that were done good manual aeration is just as
effective as an aeration stone used for 5 minutes. So I use mine for
20 minutes and then repeat in 4-6 hours to be sure the yeast has
plenty of opportunity for growth in the aerobic stage. IMO starters
are a must with liquid yeast even with pitchable vials and smack
packs. Making a 1-1.5 liter starter is so easy and will enable good
yeast count at pitching if aerated well.
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 10:06:43
From: Joseph Love
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:04:18 GMT, fishface876@yahoo.com said...
>
> You can quite easily wind up with poor attenuation if yeast health is
> poor even with a very fermentable wort. Pitching a vial of liquid
> yeast is putting faith in the viability of the yeast in the vial. If
> that yeast was close to expiration date, and/or was stored poorly you
> could have much less viable yeast than a fresh vial would give and
> then if not adequately aerated the aerobic growth cycle is stunted. In
> this case the yeast will ferment poorly and this could easily be what
> happened to Joseph.
hi norm, thanks for pitching in (couldn't resist).
i used white labs wlp002 (english ale yeast) for this batch. the date on
the vial said it was best before date was 2 months out. i don't know
about storage before it was in my hands. i stored it in the fridge. i
did bring it to room temperature at the start of my brew day but then
had to put of the brew day for 24 hours so i returned it to the fridge.
i brought the yeast to room temp (72f) and pitched into the wort (70f).
> Before shopping around for different extract I would pay attention to
> yeast health and eliminate that as a source of problem. From what I
> have read of some tests that were done good manual aeration is just as
> effective as an aeration stone used for 5 minutes. So I use mine for
> 20 minutes and then repeat in 4-6 hours to be sure the yeast has
> plenty of opportunity for growth in the aerobic stage. IMO starters
> are a must with liquid yeast even with pitchable vials and smack
> packs. Making a 1-1.5 liter starter is so easy and will enable good
> yeast count at pitching if aerated well.
so you areate with a stone before pitching than 4-6 hours after the
pitch? interesting.
thanks,
joe
--
Joseph Love
Portland, OR
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 10:51:54
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
"Norm J" <fishface876@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:48idg2t7kdmmihjns47g5iitk05vo85n8m@4ax.com...
> On 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort,
specifically
> >the ratio of complex/simple sugars....Making a starter and good aeration
will help the yeast attenuate more, but
> >this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
> >using.
>
> Before shopping around for different extract I would pay attention to
> yeast health and eliminate that as a source of problem. From what I
> have read of some tests that were done good manual aeration is just as
> effective as an aeration stone used for 5 minutes. So I use mine for
> 20 minutes and then repeat in 4-6 hours to be sure the yeast has
> plenty of opportunity for growth in the aerobic stage. IMO starters
> are a must with liquid yeast even with pitchable vials and smack
> packs.
I've been doing partial extract batches for six years and I have to agree
with John. If Joseph knows the brand of extract and passes it along we could
have a much better idea of where to look for any attenuation problems. There
are some extracts that just don't wont give you good attenuation. Until the
brand is identified I would look at the extract first. It was a low cell
count but he had activity in under 12 hours which is darn good for straight
from the vial and with a 1.050 OG manual aeration should have been just
fine. Depending on the style he could try a dry yeast known for good
attenuation like Danstar's Nottingham for his next batch.
Mark R
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 15:55:17
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 10:51:54 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net > wrote:
>
> "Norm J" <fishface876@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:48idg2t7kdmmihjns47g5iitk05vo85n8m@4ax.com...
>> On 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort,
> specifically
>> >the ratio of complex/simple sugars....Making a starter and good aeration
> will help the yeast attenuate more, but
>> >this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
>> >using.
>>
>> Before shopping around for different extract I would pay attention to
>> yeast health and eliminate that as a source of problem. From what I
>> have read of some tests that were done good manual aeration is just as
>> effective as an aeration stone used for 5 minutes. So I use mine for
>> 20 minutes and then repeat in 4-6 hours to be sure the yeast has
>> plenty of opportunity for growth in the aerobic stage. IMO starters
>> are a must with liquid yeast even with pitchable vials and smack
>> packs.
>
> I've been doing partial extract batches for six years and I have to agree
> with John. If Joseph knows the brand of extract and passes it along we could
> have a much better idea of where to look for any attenuation problems. There
> are some extracts that just don't wont give you good attenuation. Until the
> brand is identified I would look at the extract first. It was a low cell
> count but he had activity in under 12 hours which is darn good for straight
> from the vial and with a 1.050 OG manual aeration should have been just
> fine. Depending on the style he could try a dry yeast known for good
> attenuation like Danstar's Nottingham for his next batch.
Yeah, I was assuming in my original reply that the viability of the yeast
was good. Like you said, a 12 hour start would seem to indicate a viable
yeast. However, Norm is correct in that it could be a possible cause.
John.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 10:04:56
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
>
> Yeah, I was assuming in my original reply that the viability of the yeast
> was good. Like you said, a 12 hour start would seem to indicate a viable
> yeast. However, Norm is correct in that it could be a possible cause.
Yep, sorry Norm, didn't mean to sound like I thought you were wrong. You are
correct that low cell count, yeast health, and aeration can be attenuation
factors as well. Just thought that with the known low attenuation of some
brands of extract like Laaglander that won't give you much more than 60%
even if you pray to Saint Arnold, it would be easier to check the extract
first. But then sometimes the extract in kits comes in unmarked packages.
Mark R
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 15:43:44
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:04:18 GMT, <fishface876@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On 12 Sep 2006 01:20:52 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>The biggest factor in attenuation is the profile of the wort, specifically
>>the ratio of complex/simple sugars....Making a starter and good aeration will help the yeast attenuate more, but
>>this is probably a minor factor compared to the brand of extract you are
>>using.
>
> You can quite easily wind up with poor attenuation if yeast health is
> poor even with a very fermentable wort. Pitching a vial of liquid
> yeast is putting faith in the viability of the yeast in the vial. If
> that yeast was close to expiration date, and/or was stored poorly you
> could have much less viable yeast than a fresh vial would give and
> then if not adequately aerated the aerobic growth cycle is stunted. In
> this case the yeast will ferment poorly and this could easily be what
> happened to Joseph.
This is true, they're both important. It is possible to see extract
attenuations range everywhere from 55% to 85%, regardless of what yeast you
are using. On the other hand, poor yeast health can cause stuck fermentations
which can cause your attenuation to be just about anywhere.
They got around 60% attenuation, whether that was due to the wort or the yeast
handling depends on what brand of extract they used.
John.
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 19:36:52
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
Joseph Love wrote:
> hello all,
>
> i'm still quite new to this whole homebrewing experience. as i sit here
> drinking my first pale ale homebrew and going through my brew log, i was
> looking for ways to improve my brewing process.
>
> first off, like most newbies i am a partial-boil extract brewer. i
> missed my FG by more than i was comfortable with. OG was 1.050, and i
> was shooting from 1.010 to 1.014 and ended up with 1.020 after 10 days
> in the primary. i decided to bottle as airlock activity was about 1 gasp
> every 90-100 seconds.
>
> i didn't use a started (pitched a white labs vial into 70F wort). i did
> the good 'ol manual aeration before pitching. i had airlock activity in
> around 10-12 hours.
>
> ok, on to the question. any suggestions on improving attenuation what is
> the most bang for the buck?
>
> starter?
> aeration stone?
> full boil?
>
> i only want to make one change for my next brewing session so i can get
> a better understanding of the impact on attenuation.
>
> thanks in advance
> joe
Use a starter -- a liter is a good size for ales. If you use a good dry
yeast, there's no need to use a starter at all.
Check your extracts -- some don't produce a very fermentable wort.
Better aeration is always a good thing, but probably not the determining
factor here.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 09:47:42
From: Joseph Love
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:36:52 -0500, mikey666@666swampgas.666com said...
>
> Use a starter -- a liter is a good size for ales. If you use a good dry
> yeast, there's no need to use a starter at all.
>
> Check your extracts -- some don't produce a very fermentable wort.
>
> Better aeration is always a good thing, but probably not the determining
> factor here.
thanks for the response.
i was thinking of going with a starter for my next batch, but i was
unclear if that could have been one of the causes of lower than expected
attenuation. with my lag time being 10-12 hours i though it was pretty
good. will the decrease in lag time help with attenuation?
the date on the vial was still 2 months away from the "best before"
dating and i had lots and lots of "activity" from the yeast during the
first 4 days. i guess what i am hearing is the best way to ensure good
healthy yeast pitch is to wake 'em up.
thanks for all the help, it is greatly appreciated.
joe
--
Joseph Love
Portland, OR
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 16:52:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:47:42 -0700, <joe@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:36:52 -0500, mikey666@666swampgas.666com said...
>>
>> Use a starter -- a liter is a good size for ales. If you use a good dry
>> yeast, there's no need to use a starter at all.
>>
>> Check your extracts -- some don't produce a very fermentable wort.
>>
>> Better aeration is always a good thing, but probably not the determining
>> factor here.
>
> thanks for the response.
>
> i was thinking of going with a starter for my next batch, but i was
> unclear if that could have been one of the causes of lower than expected
> attenuation. with my lag time being 10-12 hours i though it was pretty
> good. will the decrease in lag time help with attenuation?
Yeah, it's possible for underpitching to cause poor attenuation.
> the date on the vial was still 2 months away from the "best before"
> dating and i had lots and lots of "activity" from the yeast during the
> first 4 days. i guess what i am hearing is the best way to ensure good
> healthy yeast pitch is to wake 'em up.
Making a starter isn't so much about "waking them up", but rather to increase
the amount of yeast. A liquid tube only contains around 1/4 the amount
of yeast that a dry packet does... it's not really enough for optimum
performance.
IMO, I would still check into the brand of extract part of it as well. It's
*very* common with extract beers to have issues with the attenuation due
to the brand you are using.
John.
|
| |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 10:05:14
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: noob: improving attenuation
|
Joseph Love wrote:
> ok, on to the question. any suggestions on improving attenuation what is
> the most bang for the buck?
>
> starter?
> aeration stone?
> full boil?
>
> i only want to make one change for my next brewing session so i can get
> a better understanding of the impact on attenuation.
Use a more attenuative extract, or replace a bit if extract with sugar.
Attenuaion is even more dependent on wort composition and fermentability
than it is on yeast attenuation.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
|
