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Date: 15 Oct 2006 11:05:29
From: eupsychia
Subject: high temperature mash question
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I have read in numerous places that mashing at a higher temperature
(e.g., 155F) will produce a less fermentable wort than a lower
temperature mash (e.g., 150F). This is due to a difference in the
temperature preferences of the alpha amylase and beta amylase enzymes.
My question is exactly how much difference will a high temperature mash
make in the final gravity? Is there a formula to estimate how many
additional points of final gravity will be obtained by raising the mash
temperature to 155F? I suppose that this is difficult to calculate
because there are many variables involved. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.
Gary
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Date: 15 Oct 2006 18:30:53
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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eupsychia wrote:
> I have read in numerous places that mashing at a higher temperature
> (e.g., 155F) will produce a less fermentable wort than a lower
> temperature mash (e.g., 150F). This is due to a difference in the
> temperature preferences of the alpha amylase and beta amylase enzymes.
> My question is exactly how much difference will a high temperature mash
> make in the final gravity? Is there a formula to estimate how many
> additional points of final gravity will be obtained by raising the mash
> temperature to 155F? I suppose that this is difficult to calculate
> because there are many variables involved. Any suggestions would be
> appreciated.
>
No, because the difference will vary a lot between grists, exact mash
schedules and I suppose to some extent, yeast. Your only real option is
to experiment a bit.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
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Date: 16 Oct 2006 17:05:44
From: eupsychia
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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> No, because the difference will vary a lot between grists, exact mash
> schedules and I suppose to some extent, yeast. Your only real option is
> to experiment a bit.
I tried mashing at a higher temperature but it didn't seem to make any
difference in the fermentability of the wort. I only did a small
partial mash though (about 3lb) so maybe this wasn't enough to see a
measurable effect from a higher mash temperature. Anyway, it got me
wondering about the amount of difference that it would make. It seems
unlikely to me that increasing the temperature by just a few degrees
would have much influence on the resulting wort. Please feel free to
correct me about this if I'm wrong.
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Date: 16 Oct 2006 19:14:07
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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eupsychia wrote:
>> No, because the difference will vary a lot between grists, exact mash
>> schedules and I suppose to some extent, yeast. Your only real option is
>> to experiment a bit.
>
> I tried mashing at a higher temperature but it didn't seem to make any
> difference in the fermentability of the wort. I only did a small
> partial mash though (about 3lb) so maybe this wasn't enough to see a
> measurable effect from a higher mash temperature. Anyway, it got me
> wondering about the amount of difference that it would make. It seems
> unlikely to me that increasing the temperature by just a few degrees
> would have much influence on the resulting wort. Please feel free to
> correct me about this if I'm wrong.
>
You won't see much of a difference in a mini-mash, but time and
temperature can and do make a big difference in all-grain, particularly
when the grist is mostly pale or pilsener malts that are enzyme-rich to
start with. 30 minutes at 158 might give you complete conversion but
65% attenuation, whereas 3 hours at 145-148 could get you into the
low/mid-80s with a little luck.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 17 Oct 2006 14:52:42
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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On 16 2006 17:05:44 -0700, <eupsychia@yahoo.com > wrote:
>> No, because the difference will vary a lot between grists, exact mash
>> schedules and I suppose to some extent, yeast. Your only real option is
>> to experiment a bit.
>
> I tried mashing at a higher temperature but it didn't seem to make any
> difference in the fermentability of the wort. I only did a small
> partial mash though (about 3lb) so maybe this wasn't enough to see a
> measurable effect from a higher mash temperature. Anyway, it got me
> wondering about the amount of difference that it would make. It seems
> unlikely to me that increasing the temperature by just a few degrees
> would have much influence on the resulting wort. Please feel free to
> correct me about this if I'm wrong.
Time is involved as well. If you let a high temp mash sit for too long,
the enzymes will eventually reduce the complex sugars down to simple ones.
You're probably not going to see too much difference from a small partial
mash though.
John.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 22:29:53
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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"eupsychia" <eupsychia@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161043544.524192.317710@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> No, because the difference will vary a lot between grists, exact mash
>> schedules and I suppose to some extent, yeast. Your only real option is
>> to experiment a bit.
>
> I tried mashing at a higher temperature but it didn't seem to make any
> difference in the fermentability of the wort. I only did a small
> partial mash though (about 3lb) so maybe this wasn't enough to see a
> measurable effect from a higher mash temperature. Anyway, it got me
> wondering about the amount of difference that it would make. It seems
> unlikely to me that increasing the temperature by just a few degrees
> would have much influence on the resulting wort. Please feel free to
> correct me about this if I'm wrong.
I've experienced the same thing. I once did a single infusion mash for 1
hour at around 160 F, and I still got 78% attenuation. Mash time aside, I'm
starting to think that above about 152 F, higher temperatures might not have
any effect on fermentability. Heck, I wonder if it really matters at all,
as long as you're above about 148 F. Perhaps the yeast just does whatever
it wants to do, regardless of temperature, as long as you hit a temperature
somewhere in the alpha amalyse range. I mean, is the effect really very
significant in anyone's experience?? Assuming a 45 to 60 minute mash, that
is.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 23 Oct 2006 09:01:07
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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"David M. Taylor" wrote:
>I mean, is the effect really very
> significant in anyone's experience?? Assuming a 45 to 60 minute mash, that
> is.
I notice a marked difference between a 148 and a 156 mash, myself.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 23 Oct 2006 17:27:46
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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On Mon, 23 2006 09:01:07 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> "David M. Taylor" wrote:
>>I mean, is the effect really very
>> significant in anyone's experience?? Assuming a 45 to 60 minute mash, that
>> is.
>
> I notice a marked difference between a 148 and a 156 mash, myself.
Same here. I don't have the data from my brews to quantify it in terms
of attenuation. However, I definitely notice a difference in the beer.
John.
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 15:48:19
From: Derric
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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>> "David M. Taylor" wrote:
>> I mean, is the effect really very significant in anyone's experience??
>> Assuming a 45 to 60 minute mash, that is.
>
> I notice a marked difference between a 148 and a 156 mash, myself.
> ----------->Denny
I once did two batches from the exact same grain batch, on the same day,
with everything exactly the same (including splitting a large yeast
starter) except the sparging technique and the type of hops. However,
I did end up with a difference in the temperature of the mash thru a
calculation error. Even tho' there was only a 4F difference in the
temp, there was a measurable difference in the results:
Mash @ 151F: OG=1.054 FG=1.011 (79.6% atten)
Mash @ 147F: OG=1.050 FG=1.008 (84% atten)
So, yes, there's a difference, and there'd be even more difference at
the extremes of the temperature range.
Derric
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Date: 17 Oct 2006 16:40:14
From: eupsychia
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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> Time is involved as well. If you let a high temp mash sit for too long,
> the enzymes will eventually reduce the complex sugars down to simple ones.
> You're probably not going to see too much difference from a small partial
> mash though.
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't realize that time was a factor, but
that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I'll keep working
on it.
Gary
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 13:04:15
From: Joel
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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eupsychia <eupsychia@yahoo.com > wrote:
>> Time is involved as well. If you let a high temp mash sit for too long,
>> the enzymes will eventually reduce the complex sugars down to simple ones.
>> You're probably not going to see too much difference from a small partial
>> mash though.
>
>Thanks for the feedback. I didn't realize that time was a factor, but
>that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I'll keep working
>on it.
Time is certainly a factor, but the enzymes will
denature in a matter of a couple hours, so I don't
think it's as big as some might think. (It's
frequently brought up in discussions of overnight
mashing as a big negative, when in reality it's
not as bad as all that.)
--
Joel Plutchak
"Things just fall apart." - Now They'll Sleep (Belly)
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 18:50:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: high temperature mash question
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On Wed, 18 2006 13:04:15 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> eupsychia <eupsychia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Time is involved as well. If you let a high temp mash sit for too long,
>>> the enzymes will eventually reduce the complex sugars down to simple ones.
>>> You're probably not going to see too much difference from a small partial
>>> mash though.
>>
>>Thanks for the feedback. I didn't realize that time was a factor, but
>>that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I'll keep working
>>on it.
>
> Time is certainly a factor, but the enzymes will
> denature in a matter of a couple hours, so I don't
> think it's as big as some might think. (It's
> frequently brought up in discussions of overnight
> mashing as a big negative, when in reality it's
> not as bad as all that.)
Yeah, but a couple hours is a fairly long mash, and probably enough to
effect the sugar profile.
John.
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