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Main
Date: 04 Dec 2006 13:22:41
From:
Subject: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
i am looking for an honest answer. i have brewed a dozen or so batches
of extract beers, and have dumped at least half of what i've brewed.
the rest i drank... reluctantly. the problem is an "overwhelming"
flavor that seems to permeate every brew i have made, no matter the
recipe.
the flavor is hard to describe. i would call it a sweetness, much like
the flavor of pure extract. i have tried a number of styles of beer,
but all have had this "taste" that i can't ignore. it is like trying to
cook five different italian dishes, but having to use a tablespoon of
curry powder in each one. no matter what you cook, it would all tastes
like curried italian.
i have read other entries on this subject, but the common reply is,
"homebrew is REAL beer, so it will taste much sweeter and maltier than
most american swill." however, i am a beer snob (and proud of it), so i
can tell you, with all honesty, my taste buds are not being overly
sensitive to the maltiness of good beer.
i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without knowing my
recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching possibilities,
contamination problems etc. however, i have found all of my brews to be
consistent in that they all taste like POTENTIALLY good beer, with an
unwanted sweetness. what i am looking for is for someone to tell me the
one of the following (or a combination of the following):
-- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
-- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
-- extracts, due to XXXX, will always have a residual sweetness. some
people are more sensitive to this than others.
-- switching to all grain will/will not resolve this issue for you.
-- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
brewers achieve.
i want to switch to all grain because i am find the process more
interesting. however, if it is impossible to create a beer outside of a
larger, more "professional" process that doesn't "taste like homebrew,"
i am not so sure i want to invest much more time/money. any and all
advice is greatly appreciated.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 20:21:04
From: Mike
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
What kind of yeast are you using. For a while me and my friend were
using dry yeast that came with kits we were brewing from a local guy.
All our beers had this "homebrew" taste. All our beers had this weird
hint to them, maybe exactly what your talking about. There are 3 things
I started doing, and I did this all at once, so I don't know what
actually helped..
First off, i switched to pitchable yeasts, non of that dry crap.
Secondly i've become really anal about hops and krug from the boil
kettle getting into the fermentor, i don't have a false bottom yet, so
I've been using extra Irish Moss, and allow the wort to settle for 15
minuets before transerfing the wort into the cooler.
Thirs, I cover the carboy with a blanket as to not allow light in. If
light gets in, and hits the hops, it gives the beer a skunky taste. I
don't know what the taste is, this is what i've read online. So make
sure your beer is out of any kind of light.
These are the three things I've done, and my beers have been coming out
GREAT, shockingly good.
Good Luck
-Mike
On 2006-12-04 16:22:41 -0500, pomoone@excite.com said:
> i am looking for an honest answer. i have brewed a dozen or so batches
> of extract beers, and have dumped at least half of what i've brewed.
> the rest i drank... reluctantly. the problem is an "overwhelming"
> flavor that seems to permeate every brew i have made, no matter the
> recipe.
>
> the flavor is hard to describe. i would call it a sweetness, much like
> the flavor of pure extract. i have tried a number of styles of beer,
> but all have had this "taste" that i can't ignore. it is like trying to
> cook five different italian dishes, but having to use a tablespoon of
> curry powder in each one. no matter what you cook, it would all tastes
> like curried italian.
>
> i have read other entries on this subject, but the common reply is,
> "homebrew is REAL beer, so it will taste much sweeter and maltier than
> most american swill." however, i am a beer snob (and proud of it), so i
> can tell you, with all honesty, my taste buds are not being overly
> sensitive to the maltiness of good beer.
>
> i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without knowing my
> recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching possibilities,
> contamination problems etc. however, i have found all of my brews to be
> consistent in that they all taste like POTENTIALLY good beer, with an
> unwanted sweetness. what i am looking for is for someone to tell me the
> one of the following (or a combination of the following):
>
> -- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
> -- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
> want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
> can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
> -- extracts, due to XXXX, will always have a residual sweetness. some
> people are more sensitive to this than others.
> -- switching to all grain will/will not resolve this issue for you.
> -- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
> expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
> brewers achieve.
>
> i want to switch to all grain because i am find the process more
> interesting. however, if it is impossible to create a beer outside of a
> larger, more "professional" process that doesn't "taste like homebrew,"
> i am not so sure i want to invest much more time/money. any and all
> advice is greatly appreciated.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 01:09:50
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
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pomoone@excite.com <pomoone@excite.com >:
[...]
>i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without
>knowing my recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching
>possibilities, contamination problems etc. however, i have found
>all of my brews to be consistent in that they all taste like
>POTENTIALLY good beer, with an unwanted sweetness. what i am
>looking for is for someone to tell me the one of the following
>(or a combination of the following):
>-- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
>-- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
>want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
>can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
One thing you ought to note is your attenuation. Sweetness could
mean that your beers just aren't finishing. Pay particular
attention to final gravity to see if your beers are ending up
around where they should be, according to style. Establish this,
then maybe someone here can begin to help you find out why.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:52:04
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Scott Sellers <scottsellers@mindspring.com > wrote:
> pomoone@excite.com <pomoone@excite.com>:
>
>
> [...]
>>i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without
>>knowing my recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching
>>possibilities, contamination problems etc. however, i have found
>>all of my brews to be consistent in that they all taste like
>>POTENTIALLY good beer, with an unwanted sweetness. what i am
>>looking for is for someone to tell me the one of the following
>>(or a combination of the following):
>
>>-- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
>>-- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
>>want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
>>can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
>
> One thing you ought to note is your attenuation. Sweetness could
> mean that your beers just aren't finishing. Pay particular
> attention to final gravity to see if your beers are ending up
> around where they should be, according to style. Establish this,
> then maybe someone here can begin to help you find out why.
>
> Scott S
>
This is a good point. If you're pitching an inadequate amount of yeast
(and/or if the OG of your brews is high) your beers may not be
finishing, and fermentation may be stalling. Check your original and
final gravities. Nothing worse than an ale that's supposed to be "dry"
finishing at 1.025....Blech.
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 15:15:36
From:
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> 1) The infamous "extract twang". This is often described as a unique
> aftertaste to extract beers, some call it "cidery". The main cause is
> using liquid extract that is too old and has gone "stale". Make sure to
> use as fresh ingredients as possible, especially the LME.
Many people will also talk about "ball-point pen ink" flavours being
caused by old extract.
> 2) Different brands of extract have different levels of attenuation. IE, the
> amount of fermentability. There are many brands of extracts that have
> notoriously low attenuations, which will result in a lot of residual sugar and
> sweet/malty flavors in the beer. If the recipe didn't take this into
> account, it is easy for the beer to become unbalanced and you end up with
> the exact problem you're talking about.
When I used to brew partial-mash, this was the single largest quality
factor. Certain brands of extract are notorious for their
unfermentability. What are the FG's of your beers?
I used to use United Canadian DME (which everyone says is highly
fermentable) but I couldn't get my beers to drop below 1.020. I
switched to Munton's extra light DME and never looked back... started
hitting my target beers - both stats and flavour-wise.
I totally agree that these 2 things are the best place to start. Try
experimenting with different brands of extract and be willing to pay a
premium to get your hands on fresh stuff if you can't find it locally.
It makes a huge difference to use quality extract.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 14:50:09
From:
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
> I think you should start with what is common to all your brews first.
> Water? Yeast? environment?
>
> Tom
i have tried a few things. i live within spitting distance of northern
brewer in st. paul, mn. as i have purchase all of my
supplies/ingredients from them and brewed immediately after, i can
promise that my ingredients are fresh.
i have tried, in various combinations, northern brewer lme (from their
kits), muntons dme (amber and light), and john bull dark lme (i know, i
know... jb attenuates for crap). the irony is i have a porter in the
secondary made with john bull dark lme and muntons dry lme that tastes
far less "syrupy" than my other ales. at least, as far as i could tell
from the sample when racking.
i use tap water and top off with spring water, if needed. i have
switched to a full-volume boil for fear that i may have been scortching
my sugars, as was suggested. as for yeasts, i have used a couple of
different wyeast smack packs. i don't remember offhand which ones
specifically, but i am not dumb enough to try using a lager yeast
without proper refrigeration. i am sure they were the standard ale
yeast/british ale yeast. the last two batches i have made i implemented
a yeast starter. i have fermented in the summer with temps in the 80's,
and, most recently, in my basement where the temp was about 60. i have
also tasted beer made by my dad and brother. all have this "taste," to
varying degrees.
i have always used specialty grains. i am going to try partial mashing
with my next batch.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:07:42
From: George
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
pomoone@excite.com wrote:
>
> i use tap water and top off with spring water,
Is your tap water chlorinated? Do you do anything to neutralize the
chlorination?
> i have fermented in the summer with temps in the 80's,
> and, most recently, in my basement where the temp was about 60.
Is the off flavor as noticeable in the beers fermented at the cooler temp?
George
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 15:29:03
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
<pomoone@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1165272609.143548.261020@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> i use tap water and top off with spring water, if needed. i have
> switched to a full-volume boil for fear that i may have been scortching
> my sugars, as was suggested. as for yeasts, i have used a couple of
> different wyeast smack packs. i don't remember offhand which ones
> specifically, but i am not dumb enough to try using a lager yeast
> without proper refrigeration. i am sure they were the standard ale
> yeast/british ale yeast. the last two batches i have made i implemented
> a yeast starter. i have fermented in the summer with temps in the 80's,
> and, most recently, in my basement where the temp was about 60. i have
> also tasted beer made by my dad and brother. all have this "taste," to
> varying degrees.
>
> i have always used specialty grains. i am going to try partial mashing
> with my next batch.
With a 20 degree spread in fermentation temps and 15 of those degrees above
recommend temps for ales, some off flavors can come from that but probably
not the sweetness. As many others have said it could be the extract but I
noticed two comments that lead to a question.
You use tap water... Dad and brother have similar taste in their brews....
Are you using straight tap water or filtered? How about you brother and dad?
Chlorinated water could be causing some off taste in your brew.
Try two things with your next batch, fresh extract and bottled water. If you
reach a reasonable FG and the taste goes away then you know its the water,
extract, or both.
Mark R
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 08:55:08
From: Dan Listermann
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Most likely you have been working with old liquid extract. DME (dry malt
extract) can go stale, but it takes a lot more time so it is usually still
fresh in the store. Laaglander or "Hollander" DME is infamous for not
attenuating well and should usually be avoided. DME can be expensive. If
you want to use LME, find a store that turns over bulk extract at a frequent
pace. I would avoid canned LME - it is very unreliable.
Dan
<pomoone@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1165272609.143548.261020@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> I think you should start with what is common to all your brews first.
>> Water? Yeast? environment?
>>
>> Tom
>
> i have tried a few things. i live within spitting distance of northern
> brewer in st. paul, mn. as i have purchase all of my
> supplies/ingredients from them and brewed immediately after, i can
> promise that my ingredients are fresh.
>
> i have tried, in various combinations, northern brewer lme (from their
> kits), muntons dme (amber and light), and john bull dark lme (i know, i
> know... jb attenuates for crap). the irony is i have a porter in the
> secondary made with john bull dark lme and muntons dry lme that tastes
> far less "syrupy" than my other ales. at least, as far as i could tell
> from the sample when racking.
>
> i use tap water and top off with spring water, if needed. i have
> switched to a full-volume boil for fear that i may have been scortching
> my sugars, as was suggested. as for yeasts, i have used a couple of
> different wyeast smack packs. i don't remember offhand which ones
> specifically, but i am not dumb enough to try using a lager yeast
> without proper refrigeration. i am sure they were the standard ale
> yeast/british ale yeast. the last two batches i have made i implemented
> a yeast starter. i have fermented in the summer with temps in the 80's,
> and, most recently, in my basement where the temp was about 60. i have
> also tasted beer made by my dad and brother. all have this "taste," to
> varying degrees.
>
> i have always used specialty grains. i am going to try partial mashing
> with my next batch.
>
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 17:16:43
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
<pomoone@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1165267361.588120.275250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>i am looking for an honest answer. i have brewed a dozen or so batches
> of extract beers, and have dumped at least half of what i've brewed.
> the rest i drank... reluctantly. the problem is an "overwhelming"
> flavor that seems to permeate every brew i have made, no matter the
> recipe.
>
> the flavor is hard to describe. i would call it a sweetness, much like
> the flavor of pure extract. i have tried a number of styles of beer,
> but all have had this "taste" that i can't ignore. it is like trying to
> cook five different italian dishes, but having to use a tablespoon of
> curry powder in each one. no matter what you cook, it would all tastes
> like curried italian.
>
> i have read other entries on this subject, but the common reply is,
> "homebrew is REAL beer, so it will taste much sweeter and maltier than
> most american swill." however, i am a beer snob (and proud of it), so i
> can tell you, with all honesty, my taste buds are not being overly
> sensitive to the maltiness of good beer.
>
> i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without knowing my
> recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching possibilities,
> contamination problems etc. however, i have found all of my brews to be
> consistent in that they all taste like POTENTIALLY good beer, with an
> unwanted sweetness. what i am looking for is for someone to tell me the
> one of the following (or a combination of the following):
>
> -- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
> -- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
> want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
> can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
> -- extracts, due to XXXX, will always have a residual sweetness. some
> people are more sensitive to this than others.
> -- switching to all grain will/will not resolve this issue for you.
> -- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
> expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
> brewers achieve.
>
> i want to switch to all grain because i am find the process more
> interesting. however, if it is impossible to create a beer outside of a
> larger, more "professional" process that doesn't "taste like homebrew,"
> i am not so sure i want to invest much more time/money. any and all
> advice is greatly appreciated.
>
I think you should start with what is common to all your brews first.
Water? Yeast? environment?
Tom
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| | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 22:46:41
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
"Tom Biasi" <tombiasi@********optonline.net > wrote in message
news:f71dh.1602$Um7.14@newsfe12.lga...
>
> <pomoone@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1165267361.588120.275250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>>i am looking for an honest answer. i have brewed a dozen or so batches
>> of extract beers, and have dumped at least half of what i've brewed.
>> the rest i drank... reluctantly. the problem is an "overwhelming"
>> flavor that seems to permeate every brew i have made, no matter the
>> recipe.
> I think you should start with what is common to all your brews first.
> Water? Yeast? environment?
>
> Tom
I think Tom has a good point. Use logic. Write down the recipes for all the
beers you've made, name of extract etc. Cross out anything that's not common
between them. Examine what's left, maybe post the results here, and then
someone may be able to narrow the problem to a common cause.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 22:14:55
From: Duke
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
<pomoone@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1165267361.588120.275250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>i am looking for an honest answer. i have brewed a dozen or so batches
> of extract beers, and have dumped at least half of what i've brewed.
> the rest i drank... reluctantly. the problem is an "overwhelming"
> flavor that seems to permeate every brew i have made, no matter the
> recipe.
>
> the flavor is hard to describe. i would call it a sweetness, much like
> the flavor of pure extract. i have tried a number of styles of beer,
> but all have had this "taste" that i can't ignore. it is like trying to
> cook five different italian dishes, but having to use a tablespoon of
> curry powder in each one. no matter what you cook, it would all tastes
> like curried italian.
>
> i have read other entries on this subject, but the common reply is,
> "homebrew is REAL beer, so it will taste much sweeter and maltier than
> most american swill." however, i am a beer snob (and proud of it), so i
> can tell you, with all honesty, my taste buds are not being overly
> sensitive to the maltiness of good beer.
>
> i understand it will be hard to discuss specifics without knowing my
> recipes, ogs and fgs, fermenting temps, scortching possibilities,
> contamination problems etc. however, i have found all of my brews to be
> consistent in that they all taste like POTENTIALLY good beer, with an
> unwanted sweetness. what i am looking for is for someone to tell me the
> one of the following (or a combination of the following):
>
> -- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
> -- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
> want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
> can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
> -- extracts, due to XXXX, will always have a residual sweetness. some
> people are more sensitive to this than others.
> -- switching to all grain will/will not resolve this issue for you.
> -- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
> expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
> brewers achieve.
>
> i want to switch to all grain because i am find the process more
> interesting. however, if it is impossible to create a beer outside of a
> larger, more "professional" process that doesn't "taste like homebrew,"
> i am not so sure i want to invest much more time/money. any and all
> advice is greatly appreciated.
>
You may have already done this, but you might try switching to a different
brand of extract for your next batch to see if that makes a difference.
When I first started (extract) I too had this "taste" in every brew I made.
Irregardless of the style there was this common "taste" that was present in
every beer I made. I then started moving to using small amounts of grain
and steeping. I began to notice that the more grain I used the less and
less this "taste" reared it's ugly head in my beer. I quickly moved up to
doing half extract half all grain brews and the "taste" was pretty much gone
or at least enough that is was just barely perceptible. It wasn't long
after that that I switched to all grain and I have never had that "taste"
again.... When I was doing extract I always used Muntons. I was still new
to brewing at that point and it never really occurred to me to try a
different extract. My point being that it may have been the Muntons or it
may not, but since I never tried a different extract I never knew. The only
thing I know for sure is that once I moved from extract to all grain that
"taste" never again appeared.
This has just been my experience and should in no way be construed as me
speaking badly about extract brewing....
Duke
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 22:03:47
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 4 Dec 2006 13:22:41 -0800, <pomoone@excite.com > wrote:
> -- i am doing something wrong, and need to keep trying.
> -- there is the potential for residual sweetness due to XXXX. you may
> want to try XXXX to avoid this (i.e. brewing only stouts, since they
> can hide the sweetness more effectively than an irish red ale).
> -- extracts, due to XXXX, will always have a residual sweetness. some
> people are more sensitive to this than others.
IMO, it's probably one of two things.
1) The infamous "extract twang". This is often described as a unique
aftertaste to extract beers, some call it "cidery". The main cause is
using liquid extract that is too old and has gone "stale". Make sure to
use as fresh ingredients as possible, especially the LME.
2) Different brands of extract have different levels of attenuation. IE, the
amount of fermentability. There are many brands of extracts that have
notoriously low attenuations, which will result in a lot of residual sugar and
sweet/malty flavors in the beer. If the recipe didn't take this into
account, it is easy for the beer to become unbalanced and you end up with
the exact problem you're talking about.
Do your recipes call for a certain brand of extract, or do you use whatever
you can find at the store? Do you know what brand of extract you have been
using?
> -- switching to all grain will/will not resolve this issue for you.
Switching to all grain should solve both of the above situations. However,
there are ways of solving them and still doing extract beers.
> -- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
> expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
> brewers achieve.
IMO, this is false. It is possible to make your homebrew every bit as clean
tasting as the best commercial beers.
John.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:55:12
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
> On 4 Dec 2006 13:22:41 -0800, <pomoone@excite.com> wrote:
<snip >
>> -- all hombrewing processes are somewhat flawed, and you can never
>> expect the clean tastes (for lack of a better term) that commercial
>> brewers achieve.
>
> IMO, this is false. It is possible to make your homebrew every bit as clean
> tasting as the best commercial beers.
>
>
> John.
I agree with John. I made some decent extract beers for a while, then
I went AG and wow are my beers "clean" now. I don't know how to
describe it, but the mouthfeel is somehow different for my brews
now. Very clean.
"Thanks, John, now I can no longer drink Labatt's. Can you bring
another case of homebrew up to my house? Please?" - from a friend.
Of course, maybe I should try to make another extract brew now that
I'm a bit better at the process before running off at the mouth...
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 16:55:26
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:55:12 GMT, <syborg@earthlink.net > wrote:
> Of course, maybe I should try to make another extract brew now that
> I'm a bit better at the process before running off at the mouth...
Just another data point... extract beers have been known to beat all-grain
beers in competitions.
IMO, the main benefit of all grain is that you have a lot more control
over the recipe. However, if you use quality ingredients and follow
good procedures, it's certainly possible to make very good extract beer.
John.
|
| |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:11:12
From: Just Another Bob
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
This topic brings up a really simple question that doesn't seem to have
a simple answer. Is it possible to make a beer using only extract and
specialty grains that is every bit as good as an all grain beer?
Opinions on this seem to vary wildly. When I used to belong to a brew
club, we'd frequently argue this, but never arrive at a conclusion.
On one side of the debate, people will say that there is nothing
intrinsic about all grain brewing that makes a *better* beer. These
people argue that all grain brewing does give you more flexibility and
control, but does not necessarily mean higher quality. These people
would also suggest that brewers who tend to brew all grain also tend to
have more time and money invested in the brewing process and tend to
have better overall techniques and equipment; therefore, their beers
tend to be more consistently higher quality. They would suggest that
it's not a matter of extract vs. grain that contributes to the
difference; it's more likely these other factors. Some might go so
far as to suggest that using quality extract that has been
professionally mashed limits the number of variables facing the
homebrewer, and everything else being equal, could even lead to a
superior final product.
On the other side of the debate, you find people who argue that
extract-based brews are fundamentally inferior. Just as you cannot
make a great cup of coffee using instant crystals, you cannot make a
great beer using extracts no matter how good the rest of your
technique, recipe formulation and equipment is. These people argue
that there is a certain taste or quality that is inextricably bound to
extract, and will always be present. They suggest that an experienced
judge could do the Pepsi challenge with extract and all-grain beers and
pick the extract beer out 10 times out of 10. Heh, I'd love to see
BYO or some other publication actually conduct this challenge with
experienced brewers and judges.
My personal opinion (not that it really matters since there are an
infinite number of opinions on the subject) is more in the first camp.
While I believe that pre-hopped extract will always lead to an inferior
product (and should be avoided like the plague) I do think that it is
possible to make extract based beers that are every bit as good as
all-grain beers (or "professional" craft brews for that matter.) I
always use M.F. extra light DME in my recipes. I don't use LME or
extract with any added color (I get that from my specialty grains.) I
don't use LME primarily because I find DME easier to weigh out and
work with and I think it has a better shelf life. I also tend to think
that DME is more consistent since the water content of LME can vary
from manufacturer to manufacturer or even batch to batch.
But anyway, yes, homebrew can be every bit as good as (and
indistinguishable from) professional brews. Whether extract brews can
be every bit as good as all-grain brews is still a matter of debate.
-Bob
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 17:53:49
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 5 Dec 2006 09:11:12 -0800, <bob.devivo@gmail.com > wrote:
> This topic brings up a really simple question that doesn't seem to have
> a simple answer. Is it possible to make a beer using only extract and
> specialty grains that is every bit as good as an all grain beer?
Of course you can. Extract beers have beaten all-grain beers in judged
competitions. That makes it pretty obvious to me.
> On one side of the debate, people will say that there is nothing
> intrinsic about all grain brewing that makes a *better* beer. These
> people argue that all grain brewing does give you more flexibility and
> control, but does not necessarily mean higher quality. These people
> would also suggest that brewers who tend to brew all grain also tend to
> have more time and money invested in the brewing process and tend to
> have better overall techniques and equipment; therefore, their beers
> tend to be more consistently higher quality. They would suggest that
> it's not a matter of extract vs. grain that contributes to the
> difference; it's more likely these other factors.
I would say that all of the above is true.
> Some might go so
> far as to suggest that using quality extract that has been
> professionally mashed limits the number of variables facing the
> homebrewer, and everything else being equal, could even lead to a
> superior final product.
I wouldn't go that far.
> On the other side of the debate, you find people who argue that
> extract-based brews are fundamentally inferior. Just as you cannot
> make a great cup of coffee using instant crystals, you cannot make a
> great beer using extracts no matter how good the rest of your
> technique, recipe formulation and equipment is. These people argue
> that there is a certain taste or quality that is inextricably bound to
> extract, and will always be present.
I don't know about the coffee part, but I would say that everything else
above is false.
> They suggest that an experienced
> judge could do the Pepsi challenge with extract and all-grain beers and
> pick the extract beer out 10 times out of 10. Heh, I'd love to see
> BYO or some other publication actually conduct this challenge with
> experienced brewers and judges.
Judges have given ribbons to extract beers in competitions over all-grain
ones.
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:20:42
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Just Another Bob wrote:
> This topic brings up a really simple question that doesn't seem to have
> a simple answer. Is it possible to make a beer using only extract and
> specialty grains that is every bit as good as an all grain beer?
Yes, as long as you have good, fresh, quality extract. Unfortunately,
you don't have a lot of control over the qualities of the extract you
purchase; all-grain gives you a lot more control, but not necessarily a
better product.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 20:49:07
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Just Another Bob <bob.devivo@gmail.com >:
>This topic brings up a really simple question that doesn't seem
>to have a simple answer. Is it possible to make a beer using
>only extract and specialty grains that is every bit as good as
>an all grain beer?
It's possible to brew mediocre all grain.
DAMHIKT
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:50:48
From:
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
thanks, everyone, for all of your suggestions. since i trust your
palates are fair judges, i can only assume i am doing something(s)
wrong. from what i have heard, i am going to start with the theory that
i am getting poor attenuation. while i have been taking hydrometer
readings, i think my readings may have been erroneous. i was having a
hard time getting my hydrometer to "settle" at a particular reading. i
think the tube i was using to measure was too thin. as a result, it
kind of rubbed against the side and never settled at the same spot
twice. instead, i was relying on length of fermentation and the look of
the kreusen/airlock activity.
i have been assuming my attenuation was fine because i had followed all
of the rules, and there doesn't seem to be much discussion with people
suffering from low attenuation. it seems that this "fermenting thing"
is a bit more tricky than i thought. all of the instruction i have read
online and in kits basically imply that a 7-10 day fermentation with a
pack of yeast will work. nothing is typically said of yeast starters,
fermenting temps and aerating.
i will try a new brand of extract, use bottled water and work that fg
until i get the s.o.b. to a proper level. if is still taste unwanted
sweetness... well... i guess i will look somewhere else.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:03:28
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 5 Dec 2006 14:50:48 -0800, <pomoone@excite.com > wrote:
> i have been assuming my attenuation was fine because i had followed all
> of the rules, and there doesn't seem to be much discussion with people
> suffering from low attenuation. it seems that this "fermenting thing"
> is a bit more tricky than i thought. all of the instruction i have read
> online and in kits basically imply that a 7-10 day fermentation with a
> pack of yeast will work. nothing is typically said of yeast starters,
> fermenting temps and aerating.
IMO, the instructions included with most kits are basically worthless.
They're trying to tell you how to brew on one sheet of paper where there
have been whole books written about it. IE, they skip a LOT of details.
I would definitely recommend reading http://www.howtobrew.com if you
haven't yet.
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 13:31:22
From: Just Another Bob
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
> Judges have given ribbons to extract beers in competitions over all-grain
> ones.
>
> John.
And
Scott Sellers wrote:
>
> It's possible to brew mediocre all grain.
>
> DAMHIKT
>
> cheers,
> Scott S
>
I certainly agree with this, and I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.
My point is that some people will argue that everything else being
equal, all-grain will create a superior brew--that extract is
inherently flawed.
That's certainly not to say that one particular specimen of extract
brew can't be better than one particular specimen of all-grain.
I don't personally subscribe to this view, but it is definitely a
common bias out there in the HB world-I think it's a bias that is
evident in the OP's original question.
Take care,
Bob
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 01:06:51
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Just Another Bob <bob.devivo@gmail.com >:
>John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>>
>> Judges have given ribbons to extract beers in competitions over all-grain
>> ones.
>>
>> John.
>And
>Scott Sellers wrote:
>>
>> It's possible to brew mediocre all grain.
>>
>> DAMHIKT
>>
>> cheers,
>> Scott S
>>
>I certainly agree with this, and I wasn't trying to suggest
>otherwise. My point is that some people will argue that
>everything else being equal, all-grain will create a superior
>brew--that extract is inherently flawed.
>That's certainly not to say that one particular specimen of
>extract brew can't be better than one particular specimen of
>all-grain.
>I don't personally subscribe to this view, but it is definitely
>a common bias out there in the HB world-I think it's a bias that
>is evident in the OP's original question.
Maybe part of the bias is that most home brewers start out with
extract, then move on to all grain. At the same time, they are
probably becoming better brewers in all respects. It is only
natural that their later, better brews correlate with the move to
allgrain.
You could then extrapolate from this that the bulk of beginning
brewers entering contests are probably using extract, where the
majority of advanced brewers are probably using all grain. This
could add to the bias against extract, even among beer judges.
But again, the difference in quality could be down to experience,
more than to where the gravity points are coming from.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 21:44:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 5 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0800, <bob.devivo@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>>
>> Judges have given ribbons to extract beers in competitions over all-grain
>> ones.
>>
>> John.
>
> And
>
> Scott Sellers wrote:
>>
>> It's possible to brew mediocre all grain.
>>
>> DAMHIKT
>>
>> cheers,
>> Scott S
OK, then let me change my statement to say "Judges have given ribbons to
extract beers in competitions over some very good all-grain ones".
> My point is that some people will argue that everything else being
> equal, all-grain will create a superior brew--that extract is
> inherently flawed.
Those people would be wrong.
> That's certainly not to say that one particular specimen of extract
> brew can't be better than one particular specimen of all-grain.
I understand what you're getting at, but it's not the case. It is
possible to brew very good extract beer, that can stand up against the best
all-grain beer. Quality-wise, one is not necessarily "superior" to
another. The big advantages to all grain are that typicaly it is made
by more experienced brewers, and it gives you the ability of having
more control over the recipe. Neither one of those implies that it is
inherently superior in regards to quality.
> I don't personally subscribe to this view, but it is definitely a
> common bias out there in the HB world-I think it's a bias that is
> evident in the OP's original question.
True, it is a common bias. However, it is an incorrect one.
John.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 14:04:48
From: Joel
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>The big advantages to all grain are that typicaly it is made
>by more experienced brewers, and it gives you the ability of having
>more control over the recipe.
I would add that in general, it's easier to get grain
that hasn't gone bad or stale as compared to your standard
small-homebrew-shop cans of extract that may have been
sitting around forever getting oxidized.
--
Joel Plutchak
"Things just fall apart." - Now They'll Sleep (Belly)
|
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:06:12
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:04:48 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote:
>>The big advantages to all grain are that typicaly it is made
>>by more experienced brewers, and it gives you the ability of having
>>more control over the recipe.
>
> I would add that in general, it's easier to get grain
> that hasn't gone bad or stale as compared to your standard
> small-homebrew-shop cans of extract that may have been
> sitting around forever getting oxidized.
Yep, definitely true. I almost replied to myself and added that. It is
easier to get quality ingredients when doing all-grain. If you want to
count that as it being "superior", I guess that is one way of looking at it.
However, if you brew extract with quality/fresh ingredients and understand
how to use the various brands/attenuations of extract to your advantage,
then it's possible to make very good beer.
John.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 14:34:38
From: Theodore M. Kloba
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Scott Sellers wrote:
> Maybe part of the bias is that most home brewers start out with
> extract, then move on to all grain. At the same time, they are
> probably becoming better brewers in all respects. It is only
> natural that their later, better brews correlate with the move to
> allgrain.
I can vouch for this. Back in 2003 (when I started participating in
r.c.b), I had done on and off extract only brewing with no real clue of
how to do it well.
Techniques and understanding improved... I tried out partial mashes
and had increasing success... I tried all-grain and had increasing
success... I felt lazy and did a some extract/specialty batches that
turned out far better than any of the extract batches I'd made before.
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 05:31:18
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Maybe you just need to hop more to counter the sweetness? I used to use
promash and I found that their bittering calculation left my beers to
sweet, after switching to Beersmith this problem went away.
Try making lower OG beers and using a dry yeast that will reliably
attenuate. A simple answer is a beer with a lot of malt is going to
taste sweet anyway. The Belgians use sugar in their beers once they OG
gets to a certain level so their beers aren't cloying, while American
light lagers use flaked maize or rice in the mash. Many homebrewers
will balk at this but you could try some sugar or rice extract in place
of your malt extract.
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 17:04:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 7 Dec 2006 05:31:18 -0800, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Maybe you just need to hop more to counter the sweetness? I used to use
> promash and I found that their bittering calculation left my beers to
> sweet, after switching to Beersmith this problem went away.
FYI, what's going on here is that there are several different formulas
for calculating IBUs, and each gives a different answer. I believe that
Promash and Beersmith use different formulas as the default. If you
wanted to, you could continue to use Promash and just switch the IBU
formula to a different one in order to get the same numbers that Beersmith
is giving you.
John.
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 01:16:09
From: supadupa
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Yo,
I actually have only brewed twice, starting my 3rd batch this Sunday,
but I understand about the sweetness you are talking about. I used
Black Rock Extract from NZ to brew my first which was a Bitter. It had
a very strange taste after only 2 weeks of conditioning, but after 4
weeks of being in the bottle turned out to be incredible. It lacked the
sweetness you are talking about.
The second time I brewed a nut brown ale- also from the same company
using extract. It came out much better after just two weeks of
conditioning but it does have a sweetness to it. I always thought that
was just the norm for nut browns though...
I'm gonna do a partial extract one this next time with an American
Pale. If it turns out sweet, then I'll know that the extract is
probably a little funky. In my drinking experience, pale ales have a
very crisp and clear taste lacking sweetness. I'll let you know how it
goes. In any case, good luck!
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:43:40
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:16:09 -0800, supadupa wrote:
> I actually have only brewed twice, starting my 3rd batch this Sunday, but
> I understand about the sweetness you are talking about. I used Black Rock
> Extract from NZ to brew my first which was a Bitter. It had a very strange
> taste after only 2 weeks of conditioning, but after 4 weeks of being in
> the bottle turned out to be incredible. It lacked the sweetness you are
> talking about.
>
> The second time I brewed a nut brown ale- also from the same company using
> extract. It came out much better after just two weeks of conditioning but
> it does have a sweetness to it. I always thought that was just the norm
> for nut browns though...
I've just started brewing too and have used the same brand as you. My
first was the NZ Bitter and the second their Miner's Stout. The Stout
turned out better than the Bitter because there was a cock-up on the
temperature front with the Bitter. With the Stout I ditched the
supplied yeast and used Safale S-04 Ale Yeast. That thing really took
off and fermented out quite quickly. It's in my keg now and is nicely
carbonated. I'm *trying* to leave it alone till Xmas but it's too
tempting to draw off a half pint now and then to see how it's going!
:-)
What did you use as the sugar addition? I used Muntons Medium Spraymalt
on both but I want to try the Bitter again with a 1.8Kg can of
Alexander Amber LME and some extra hops. After I do a couple with LME
(The Nut Brown and the IPA) I'll prolly move on to extract and grains.
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 11:56:40
From: Theodore M. Kloba
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Just Another Bob wrote:
> Is it possible to make a beer using only extract and
> specialty grains that is every bit as good as an all grain beer?
I think you've gotten a "yes" on this already...
I might add that choice of style is also important. Certain styles
will require a grainbill or mash schedule that you won't be able to
duplicate with readily available extracts. Certain styles can be
pulled off quite well with extract.
|
| |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 11:48:45
From: Theodore M. Kloba
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
> pomoone@excite.com wrote:
> > while i have been taking hydrometer
> > readings, i think my readings may have been erroneous. i was having a
> > hard time getting my hydrometer to "settle" at a particular reading.
>
> How hot was the sample you were measuring, and how long between
> readings? Maybe the sample just cooled a bit before each try.
My message above pertains to your OG reading only... If you're having
problems later on, temperature shouldn't be an issue. I should also
add (since nobody else has yet) that OG hydrometer readings on extract
batches aren't really necessary: If you know the final volume and the
recipe, your calculated OG will be accurate enough.
|
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 11:44:45
From: Theodore M. Kloba
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
pomoone@excite.com wrote:
> while i have been taking hydrometer
> readings, i think my readings may have been erroneous. i was having a
> hard time getting my hydrometer to "settle" at a particular reading.
How hot was the sample you were measuring, and how long between
readings? Maybe the sample just cooled a bit before each try.
|
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 19:48:57
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: frustrated with extract taste. please help!
|
On 7 Dec 2006 11:44:45 -0800, <heytud@yahoo.com > wrote:
> pomoone@excite.com wrote:
>> while i have been taking hydrometer
>> readings, i think my readings may have been erroneous. i was having a
>> hard time getting my hydrometer to "settle" at a particular reading.
>
> How hot was the sample you were measuring, and how long between
> readings? Maybe the sample just cooled a bit before each try.
Also, if you're taking a reading after fermentation has started, it's
possible to get bubbles of CO2 clinging to the hydrometer which will
throw the reading off. Generally, spinning the hydrometer (like a top)
in the test sample will help to break the bubbles free.
John.
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