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Date: 24 Jul 2006 10:57:53
From: Ryan Case
Subject: club meeting/butter beer
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Our club meetings are the third Thursday of every month. Every other
month the members are invited to bring a beer that falls within a style
for that meeting. The list of styles being sent out at the start of the
calendar year. We then do a blind taste test of each beer and everyone
tasting fills out a score card for Appearance, Taste, Mouth feel,
Drink-ability, and Aroma I think is the last one. (I don't remember
though and I don't have a card in front of me. Hopefully Dave Smith will
chime in and correct any of those I got wrong.) The possible scores are
1 (lowest) through 5. There is also a spot at the bottom to make
comments on the beers. This is all done in the spirit of improvement.
There is an air of competition to it with some of the members that have
been in the group longer then others, but it truly does seem to be
designed to help some of the less experienced brewers in the group by
giving them feedback.
Anyway, one of the last beers last week smelled and tasted like butter
substitute. This is a diacetyle (sp) problem, no? I would really
appreciate it if someone on this board more knowledgeable then me, which
is just about all of you, would take a couple minutes and explain what
that is, and what causes it. I had read about butter flavor in beers
before, but always assumed that it would be a minor flavor, muted in the
background. This was like eating a teaspoon of "I can't believe it's not
butter."
I don't know if it helps or not, but the style for the meeting was
American Ale.
TIA,
Ryan
P.S. no it wasn't my beer, I'm not sure who the owner was.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 18:40:19
From: Sean
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
<snip >
> There are commercial beers that contain it. IIRC, Redhook ESB is especially
> known for a lot of diacetyl. I assume they do it intentionally. It also
> tends to be one of those things that not everyone can pickup in a beer.
> There are people out there who just can't taste it, even if they know it's
> there. It's possible that the brewer didn't notice it.
>
>
> John.
<snip >
>Larry Bristol cut and pasted:
>"Description: Tastes, smells like butter or butterscotch. It can also
>manifest itself as a "slickness" on the tongue. Diacetyl is produced by
>yeast early in the fermentation stages, however it is later absorbed by the
>yeast towards the end. In moderation, it is acceptable and desirable in
>certain styles (English Ales and many other ales)
Wow, I'd never made the connection with Redhook ESB and either
of these sensations. I wonder if I'm drinking them too cold to notice
(at least the aroma)? I do enjoy this ale............or is it, hmmm?
Truly ale, that is. Seems like alot of trouble for the brewery if it
weren't. Not that it would be so much for AB, who owns majority share
or outright IIRC. I also feel somewhat guilty for buying from "The Man"
and ultimately perpetuating the dangle-water regime. They are a good
source of recappable bottles tho' in my market at least.
Wondering,
Sean
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 14:35:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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On 24 Jul 2006 18:40:19 -0700, <s.mcnerney@insightbb.com > wrote:
> Wow, I'd never made the connection with Redhook ESB and either
> of these sensations. I wonder if I'm drinking them too cold to notice
> (at least the aroma)?
I might have gotten the beer wrong. I thought it was Redhook, but it's been
awhile since I've had one or since we've talked about it on here. My
memory may just be bad.
John.
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 10:39:48
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I might have gotten the beer wrong. I thought it was Redhook, but it's
> been awhile since I've had one or since we've talked about it on here.
> My memory may just be bad.
Actually, I think you are right, but it's been a whilw since I've had one,
as well. But to me, the most obvious case of diacetyl in an ESB has got to
be Fullers!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 13:56:57
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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Ryan Case wrote:
> Anyway, one of the last beers last week smelled and tasted like butter
> substitute. This is a diacetyle (sp) problem, no? I would really
> appreciate it if someone on this board more knowledgeable then me, which
> is just about all of you, would take a couple minutes and explain what
> that is, and what causes it. I had read about butter flavor in beers
> before, but always assumed that it would be a minor flavor, muted in the
> background. This was like eating a teaspoon of "I can't believe it's not
> butter."
The following is a cut and paste from:
http://www.homebrewzone.com/diacetyl.htm
"Description: Tastes, smells like butter or butterscotch. It can also
manifest itself as a "slickness" on the tongue. Diacetyl is produced by
yeast early in the fermentation stages, however it is later absorbed by the
yeast towards the end. In moderation, it is acceptable and desirable in
certain styles (English Ales and many other ales), however it is not
acceptable in others (Munich Helles). I've tasted this stuff at both
extremes, from the diacetyl that adds a subtle complexity and interesting
nuances to the over-the-top-buttered popcorn that is downright nasty.
"Cause: Removing your beer from the primary yeast before fermentation is
complete, bacterial infection, insufficient aeration of wort before yeast
is pitched.
"Remedy: Make sure primary fermentation has run its course fully before
racking to secondary or bottling, practice good sanitation, and be sure to
adequately aerate wort before you pitch your yeast. Lager brewers sometimes
employ a diacetyl rest, conditioning the beer at 50-55F for a few days."
[Yes, Virginia, you *can* rack your beer too early!]
> I don't know if it helps or not, but the style for the meeting was
> American Ale.
Diacetyl is not appropriate at all for (10A) American Pale Ale or (10B)
American Amber Ale. It is acceptable in "moderately low" amounts within
(10C) American Brown Ale.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:19:02
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:56:57 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> "Cause: Removing your beer from the primary yeast before fermentation is
> complete, bacterial infection, insufficient aeration of wort before yeast
> is pitched.
>
> "Remedy: Make sure primary fermentation has run its course fully before
> racking to secondary or bottling, practice good sanitation, and be sure to
> adequately aerate wort before you pitch your yeast. Lager brewers sometimes
> employ a diacetyl rest, conditioning the beer at 50-55F for a few days."
>
> [Yes, Virginia, you *can* rack your beer too early!]
Well, sort of. If the beer is still in active primary fermentation then
most of the yeast is going to be in suspension. So just racking the beer
at that point shouldn't really cause any diacetyl concerns since the
majority of the yeast will be racked along with the beer. IOW, you're not
really removing the beer from the yeast, you're taking the yeast along with
the beer.
Racking early with a yeast that is known for early flocculation, forcing
the yeast to flocculate early during fermentation (crash cooling) and then
racking, or racking through a filter will likely give you problems though.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 18:50:13
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:57:53 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> Anyway, one of the last beers last week smelled and tasted like butter
> substitute. This is a diacetyle (sp) problem, no? I would really
> appreciate it if someone on this board more knowledgeable then me, which
> is just about all of you, would take a couple minutes and explain what
> that is, and what causes it. I had read about butter flavor in beers
> before, but always assumed that it would be a minor flavor, muted in the
> background. This was like eating a teaspoon of "I can't believe it's not
> butter."
Yeah, it's diacetyl. I've heard it described as the butter on Movie theater
popcorn (it might even be the same thing, but I'm not 100% sure). It's
basically an off flavor thrown by the yeast. Some strains are more prone to
it than others. Usually it's more common on lagers than it is on ales. The
fix for it, at least in a lager, is to warm the beer up and let the yeast
"clean up" after themselves and get rid of the diacetyl on their own (aka the
"diacetyl rest" during lagering). This beer didn't happen to use Ringwood
yeast, did it? That one is known for extreme levels of diacetyl, even in
ales. Other than that I would imagine it's pretty hard to get diacetyl in an
ale. Maybe removing the beer from the majority of the yeast too soon will do
it? IOW, not giving them a chance to clean up after fermentation.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 12:00:06
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:57:53 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us> wrote:
>> Anyway, one of the last beers last week smelled and tasted like butter
>> substitute. This is a diacetyle (sp) problem, no? I would really
>> appreciate it if someone on this board more knowledgeable then me, which
>> is just about all of you, would take a couple minutes and explain what
>> that is, and what causes it. I had read about butter flavor in beers
>> before, but always assumed that it would be a minor flavor, muted in the
>> background. This was like eating a teaspoon of "I can't believe it's not
>> butter."
>
> Yeah, it's diacetyl. I've heard it described as the butter on Movie theater
> popcorn (it might even be the same thing, but I'm not 100% sure). It's
> basically an off flavor thrown by the yeast. Some strains are more prone to
> it than others. Usually it's more common on lagers than it is on ales. The
> fix for it, at least in a lager, is to warm the beer up and let the yeast
> "clean up" after themselves and get rid of the diacetyl on their own (aka the
> "diacetyl rest" during lagering). This beer didn't happen to use Ringwood
> yeast, did it? That one is known for extreme levels of diacetyl, even in
> ales. Other than that I would imagine it's pretty hard to get diacetyl in an
> ale. Maybe removing the beer from the majority of the yeast too soon will do
> it? IOW, not giving them a chance to clean up after fermentation.
>
>
> John.
Hmmm, thanks. Unfortunately I can't answer any of your questions about
the beer. I am not sure which club member brewed it even. I did hear one
of the most senior members say that they had actually had this
particular beer entered in a separate "competition" in the past. But I
am fairly new to the group and so wasn't there for that meeting. I
didn't think it would be appropriate to shout out in the middle of the
tastings, "Who made this one?"
You are right that it tastes quite like movie theater popcorn butter,
but without any salt flavor.
Thanks a lot.
Ryan
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:03:01
From: Dave Smith
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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In article <44C518B6.2050405@jamesrobert.us >,
Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> I did hear one
> of the most senior members say that they had actually had this
> particular beer entered in a separate "competition" in the past.
Heh, that was me who made the comment. I am going to guess it was our
"big brew" that we made as a club. It was our first effort and we did a
few things wrong. We started with an OG of 1.08 but we did not use a
large starter and we did not go to extra lengths to aerate the wort. The
result was nobody got below 1.03 and there were some terrible flavors in
there. I gave mine away. Disappointing for a club event but very
educational and now we know what we did wrong.
Dave
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:22:44
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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Dave Smith wrote:
> In article <44C518B6.2050405@jamesrobert.us>,
> Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us> wrote:
>
>> I did hear one
>> of the most senior members say that they had actually had this
>> particular beer entered in a separate "competition" in the past.
>
> Heh, that was me who made the comment. I am going to guess it was our
> "big brew" that we made as a club. It was our first effort and we did a
> few things wrong. We started with an OG of 1.08 but we did not use a
> large starter and we did not go to extra lengths to aerate the wort. The
> result was nobody got below 1.03 and there were some terrible flavors in
> there. I gave mine away. Disappointing for a club event but very
> educational and now we know what we did wrong.
Yeah, I remembered that it was you, but I was trying to be vague in an
effort to stay as tactful as possible. Especially since I didn't know
that it was a group brew when you said that. Was it the first mega brew?
I saw you with a huge starter at this year's. What was it supposed to be?
And obviously since I was referring to you when I said, "one of the
group's most senior members", I meant time in the group, not age.
I figure you and I are in the bottom 25% when it comes to age. ;~)
I kept wanting to say acetyl at the meeting when we were talking about
what caused the butter flavor,
I knew that was close but wrong though. It was one of the last beers,
dontcha know?
Ryan
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 23:10:40
From: Dave Smith
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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In article <12caeha654i8vc3@corp.supernews.com >,
Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> Yeah, I remembered that it was you, but I was trying to be vague in an
> effort to stay as tactful as possible. Especially since I didn't know
> that it was a group brew when you said that. Was it the first mega brew?
> I saw you with a huge starter at this year's. What was it supposed to be?
Tact is usually wasted on me, just say whatever you want. It wasn't our
first megabrew, it was just one where we learned quite a bit. The result
was that multiple members now have aeration kits and have dedicated
themselves to using starters (sometimes large). Live and learn.
Dave
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:25:04
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:00:06 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> Hmmm, thanks. Unfortunately I can't answer any of your questions about
> the beer. I am not sure which club member brewed it even. I did hear one
> of the most senior members say that they had actually had this
> particular beer entered in a separate "competition" in the past. But I
> am fairly new to the group and so wasn't there for that meeting. I
> didn't think it would be appropriate to shout out in the middle of the
> tastings, "Who made this one?"
I can picture it now. Right in the middle of the tasting... "Ugh! Who made
this!". I'd actually be pretty funny as long as it wasn't your beer. ;)
> You are right that it tastes quite like movie theater popcorn butter,
> but without any salt flavor.
>
> Thanks a lot.
There are commercial beers that contain it. IIRC, Redhook ESB is especially
known for a lot of diacetyl. I assume they do it intentionally. It also
tends to be one of those things that not everyone can pickup in a beer.
There are people out there who just can't taste it, even if they know it's
there. It's possible that the brewer didn't notice it.
John.
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 09:48:28
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrneca7o7.bg6.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:00:06 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us> wrote:
> There are commercial beers that contain it. IIRC, Redhook ESB is
especially
> known for a lot of diacetyl. I assume they do it intentionally. It also
> tends to be one of those things that not everyone can pickup in a beer.
> There are people out there who just can't taste it, even if they know it's
> there. It's possible that the brewer didn't notice it.
>
>
> John.
At my beer club everyone swears they don't taste the blood/coinlike taste in
my RIS except one person and he said it was very faint. Me, I can't even
drink the stuff, I feel like a vampire every sip I take. Guess I'm sensative
to some chemical in the brew.
Gerard
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 10:52:01
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: club meeting/butter beer
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> At my beer club everyone swears they don't taste the blood/coinlike taste
> in my RIS except one person and he said it was very faint. Me, I can't
> even drink the stuff, I feel like a vampire every sip I take. Guess I'm
> sensative to some chemical in the brew.
Most likely iron... perhaps in your water?
The taste threshold for diacetyl varies significantly from person to person.
I've never heard that stated about iron, but I suppose the taste threshold
of *anything* should vary a little from person to person.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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