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Main
Date: 05 Sep 2006 14:26:53
From: dutchbrew/chicago
Subject: bittering hops
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for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
Thanks.
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 19:42:43
From:
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
> for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
> to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
> a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
>
> Thanks.
Some say there is no flavor from bittering hops, just whether the
bitterness is harsh or smooth. I don't believe that. I have brewed
the same English Bitter recipe with different hops at the same HBU, not
IBU since I don't have a home lab to check that, and they taste very
different not just smoother or harsher. The biggest difference was
between Kent Goldings and Cascade with Fuggles being much more like the
Goldings and Hersbrucker took it in a different direction all together.
Regards,
Bryan
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:45:46
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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On 5 Sep 2006 19:42:43 -0700, <yournotauser@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
>> for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
>> to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
>> a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> Some say there is no flavor from bittering hops, just whether the
> bitterness is harsh or smooth. I don't believe that. I have brewed
> the same English Bitter recipe with different hops at the same HBU, not
> IBU since I don't have a home lab to check that, and they taste very
> different not just smoother or harsher. The biggest difference was
> between Kent Goldings and Cascade with Fuggles being much more like the
> Goldings and Hersbrucker took it in a different direction all together.
There's certainly something to that as well. Just look at FWHing. Depending
on your procedure, it's definitely possible to get some of the hop flavor
to come through the boil. I guess my reply was mostly assuming that the
flavor did not come through, and was saying that there would still be
differences to the character.
John.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 00:36:33
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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On 5 Sep 2006 14:26:53 -0700, <vroomski1@yahoo.com > wrote:
> for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
> to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
> a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
Not so much flavor, but there are different characteristics to the
bitterness. More of a "harsh" vs "smooth" bitterness quality. The
biggest factor, although not talked about much, is the cohumulone level.
Lower levels give a smoother quality, higher levels give a harsher quality.
So, depending on what character you are after, you will get different
results from different hops. It's not as simple as just factoring the
AA% and substituting any hops you want for bitterness.
John.
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 20:50:36
From: Ricky Nickolson
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnefs660.bnk.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On 5 Sep 2006 14:26:53 -0700, <vroomski1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
>> to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
>> a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
>
> Not so much flavor, but there are different characteristics to the
> bitterness. More of a "harsh" vs "smooth" bitterness quality. The
> biggest factor, although not talked about much, is the cohumulone level.
> Lower levels give a smoother quality, higher levels give a harsher
> quality.
> So, depending on what character you are after, you will get different
> results from different hops. It's not as simple as just factoring the
> AA% and substituting any hops you want for bitterness.
>
>
> John.
Can you give us some commercial examples of a high AA% beer with a "harsh"
bitter and others with a "smooth" bitter? I seem to gravitate towards more
hoppy/bitter beers and less towards a grainy beer...but I've never really
thought about a harsh vs smooth bitter and this just might help me narrow
down my taste preferences a bit.
tia...
Ricky
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 10:05:25
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Ranger Steve wrote:
> I agree- I recently bought some Chinook hops for an American Ale that
> were a whopping 14.8% AA. I ended up using only 3/8 of an ounce for a
> 60 minute boil. I felt like a dope dealer trying to measure the stuff
> out. It would have been a lot easier to measure if the alpha had been
> 7% or therabouts so I could have used a full ounce.
Man, if that's the biggest problem you have...;)
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 09:52:36
From: Ranger Steve
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Personally, I usually stick with the low AA varieties mainly because
> measurement errors have less impact on the beer than with the high AA
> varieties.
>
I agree- I recently bought some Chinook hops for an American Ale that
were a whopping 14.8% AA. I ended up using only 3/8 of an ounce for a
60 minute boil. I felt like a dope dealer trying to measure the stuff
out. It would have been a lot easier to measure if the alpha had been
7% or therabouts so I could have used a full ounce.
Steve
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 08:39:12
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
> for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
> to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
> a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
The key factor for hop flavor and aroma is the length of time they are
boiled. The flavor and aroma components are somewhat volatile, and the
longer they are boiled, the less will remain. In general, aroma components
boil away much more quickly than flavoring components.
So how long do you boil your bittering hops? For me, such hops are
typically boiled for 60 minutes or more. With such a long boil,
practically all of the flavoring and aroma components are lost, meaning
there is little difference between one variety of hop and another. The
quality and freshness of the hops are more significant than the variety.
But if you boil for a shorter time, you will still get *some* bitterness,
and then, of course, the hop variety is quite significant to the flavor and
aroma profiles.
"Harsh" bitterness versus "smooth" bitterness? And *I* get accused of wild
speculation?!?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 08:53:16
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Larry Bristol wrote:
> "Harsh" bitterness versus "smooth" bitterness? And *I* get accused of wild
> speculation?!?
It's not wild speculation, Larry. Many of us have proven it to
ourselves, even if you haven't. Try this..take 2 hops with similar AA,
but very different cohumulone levels...say, Magnum and Chinook. Use
each to bitter a batch to the same IBU level and see if you can tell the
difference in the "taste" of the bittering.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 11:00:23
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Denny Conn wrote:
> It's not wild speculation, Larry. Many of us have proven it to
> ourselves, even if you haven't.
Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though you
haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
Come on, people. Enough is enough!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 09:48:44
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Larry Bristol wrote:
> Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though you
> haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
No, it's a difference of opinion. So you have tried the exact same
recipe with hops of widely different cohumulone levels and found no
difference? Please elaborate....
> Come on, people. Enough is enough!
I would agree with that....I can see that you're not interested in
carrying on a discussion about differences. I won't bother to respond
(if I can help myself!)any longer.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 12:42:42
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Denny Conn wrote:
>> Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though
>> you haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
>
> No, it's a difference of opinion. So you have tried the exact same
> recipe with hops of widely different cohumulone levels and found no
> difference? Please elaborate....
What are you talking about? I have not done so, and I never claimed I have.
Do *you* have results from any such experiments?
This is not the only thread in this newsgroup, you know? I have reported
results from *OTHER* experiments I have done, and been told that everything
I say is "wild speculation". When that same someone makes a highly
speculative statement, I do not have the right to point that out?
I just might have learned just a *little* about this subject in the 24 years
I've been brewing. Certainly enough to deserve a little more respect than
some are willing to give. But I've encountered people who know everything
there is to know before, and I am not impressed.
> I would agree with that....I can see that you're not interested in
> carrying on a discussion about differences. I won't bother to respond
> (if I can help myself!)any longer.
I don't know what makes you come to that conclusion, but if you cannot speak
to me with a civil tongue, then I would definitely prefer that you *don't*
respond.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 12:11:53
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Larry Bristol wrote:
> What are you talking about? I have not done so, and I never claimed I have.
> Do *you* have results from any such experiments?
I have done the experiement for myself and satisfied my own curiosity.
I was attempting to realte my experience to you.
> This is not the only thread in this newsgroup, you know? I have reported
> results from *OTHER* experiments I have done, and been told that everything
> I say is "wild speculation". When that same someone makes a highly
> speculative statement, I do not have the right to point that out?
Of course you do...I just wish everyone could do that in a bit less
argumentative manner.
> I just might have learned just a *little* about this subject in the 24 years
> I've been brewing. Certainly enough to deserve a little more respect than
> some are willing to give. But I've encountered people who know everything
> there is to know before, and I am not impressed.
I, for one, do not claim to "know everything". I merely know what I've
experienced.
> > I would agree with that....I can see that you're not interested in
> > carrying on a discussion about differences. I won't bother to respond
> > (if I can help myself!)any longer.
>
> I don't know what makes you come to that conclusion, but if you cannot speak
> to me with a civil tongue, then I would definitely prefer that you *don't*
> respond.
I apologize if I came across as uncivil...that certainly was not my
intent.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:31:50
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
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Denny Conn wrote:
> I have done the experiement for myself and satisfied my own curiosity.
> I was attempting to realte my experience to you.
I would be interested in hearing about it, but I should warn you that
posting to this newsgroup results of an experiment that disagree with the
personal beliefs of those (who think they are) in charge will cause
anything you say to be labeled as "wild speculation". And I have PROOF of
that claim.
> Of course you do...I just wish everyone could do that in a bit less
> argumentative manner.
That is my wish also. As far as I am concerned, you will need to take up
that matter elsewhere.
> I, for one, do not claim to "know everything". I merely know what I've
> experienced.
As I have previously noted, personal experiences are not good enough if they
disagree with the newsgroup gods.
> I apologize if I came across as uncivil...that certainly was not my
> intent.
I admit that I am a little touchy at the moment. I also have to admit that
I was quite surprised by the tone that I read into your post. It was most
unlike anything I had seen from you before. I generally know better than
to read such things into a written form such as this. OK, the reset button
has been pushed. Let's put it behind us and move forward from here.
So how did you conduct your experiment and what did you find in your
experience?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 09:34:46
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> So how did you conduct your experiment and what did you find in your
> experience?
>
It was pretty simple and straightforward. I simply made back to back
batches of a simple pale ale recipe that I'd made often enough to know
it was repeatable, so that the only real variable would be the hop
variety. I used the 2 varieties that I previously mentioned, Magnum and
Chinook. without having my notes at hand, I can tell you that the AA of
the 2 was very similar, so there was only a minor adjustment to be made
in the amount of bittering hops to get them both the the same IBU level.
The bitterness was markedly different between the 2. while both
seemed to taste like they were equally bitter, the Magnum bitterness was
definitely smoother. I realize that's a damn subjective assessment, but
I don't know how else to describe it. That's why I'd encourage you to
do something similar and see what you think.
------------- >Denny
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:49:30
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Denny Conn wrote:
> It was pretty simple and straightforward. I simply made back to back
> batches of a simple pale ale recipe that I'd made often enough to know
> it was repeatable, so that the only real variable would be the hop
> variety. I used the 2 varieties that I previously mentioned, Magnum and
> Chinook. without having my notes at hand, I can tell you that the AA of
> the 2 was very similar, so there was only a minor adjustment to be made
> in the amount of bittering hops to get them both the the same IBU level.
> The bitterness was markedly different between the 2. while both
> seemed to taste like they were equally bitter, the Magnum bitterness was
> definitely smoother. I realize that's a damn subjective assessment, but
> I don't know how else to describe it. That's why I'd encourage you to
> do something similar and see what you think.
That sounds like a legitimate data point to me, although I don't know if it
actually proves anything. I have never done anything even as "formal" as
this, but I have observed (as of yet unexplained) differences in two
different batches of the same beer that I suppose could be described as
"harsh" versus "smooth". But these batches were not supposed to be
different, and the same hops were used each time. The best explanation I
have so far rests in the difference in quality between the ingredients used
from batch to batch. And given a little more time in the conditioning
tank, that "harshness" tended to become more "smooth".
Several years ago, I make a whole series of batches where I varied one and
only one ingredient. That included a series where I changed from one
variety of hop to another. But the purpose was flavor comparisons, not
bitterness, and certainly not for anything resembling "quality" of
bitterness. I might consider doing a head-to-head experiment of this
nature, but I see a lot of problems trying to keep other variables under
control, especially the relative freshness and quality of two different hop
varieties. And since I consider it a *given* that fresher and better
quality ingredients will make better beer, this factor has to be equal
(it's difficult to even define that!) between the two varieties, or the
whole experiment is pointless.
In fact, my big hangup is the terminology. Phrases like "harsh bitterness"
versus "smooth bitterness" are essentially undefinable and horribly
subjective. It would make just as much sense to call it "red" versus
"blue" bitterness. Subjective flavor comparisons such as this (another
that jumps to mind for some reason is the undefined term "cidery") are iffy
at best, and next to impossible unless everyone involved has a clear
definition of that flavor.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 08:25:39
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Denny Conn wrote:
>
> In fact, my big hangup is the terminology. Phrases like "harsh bitterness"
> versus "smooth bitterness" are essentially undefinable and horribly
> subjective. It would make just as much sense to call it "red" versus
> "blue" bitterness. Subjective flavor comparisons such as this (another
> that jumps to mind for some reason is the undefined term "cidery") are iffy
> at best, and next to impossible unless everyone involved has a clear
> definition of that flavor.
I think I hear the term "pleasant bitterness" versus "unpleasant
bitterness" used often. Subjective still, -- but then so is taste.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 20:35:24
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com >:
[...]
>In fact, my big hangup is the terminology. Phrases like "harsh
>bitterness" versus "smooth bitterness" are essentially
>undefinable and horribly subjective. It would make just as much
>sense to call it "red" versus "blue" bitterness. Subjective
>flavor comparisons such as this (another that jumps to mind for
>some reason is the undefined term "cidery") are iffy at best,
>and next to impossible unless everyone involved has a clear
>definition of that flavor.
Language and realite seldom match up on a perfect, one-to-one
basis. That doesn't make it all subjective.
The terms "harsh" and "smooth" may be imprecise, but I think they
are legitimate flavor descriptors, even moreso when attached
directly to bitterness. They are not subjective, in that given a
sample in which there is a noticeable difference, I think tasters
would arrive at a consensus over which was which.
"Red" and "blue" OTOH have no flavor connotations whatsoever, and
asking a taster to distinguish along these lines would be
nonsensical.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 17:54:38
From: Joel
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>This is not the only thread in this newsgroup, you know? I have reported
>results from *OTHER* experiments I have done, and been told that everything
>I say is "wild speculation". When that same someone makes a highly
>speculative statement, I do not have the right to point that out?
Problem is, that "wild speculation" about the quality of
perceived bitterness is something that is referenced in
technical articles, i.e., not at all wild speculation.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 13:36:53
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Joel wrote:
> Problem is, that "wild speculation" about the quality of
> perceived bitterness is something that is referenced in
> technical articles, i.e., not at all wild speculation.
No, Joel, the problem is that none of these technical articles have even
been cited. I have no problem reading something *authoritative* and
gleaning whatever useful information it might contain. There is also the
matter of who and what I might consider to be authoritative. The Internet
provides access to a lot of useful information, but not all of it is
factual. This newsgroup is no exception.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 20:54:26
From: Joel
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>Joel wrote:
>> Problem is, that "wild speculation" about the quality of
>> perceived bitterness is something that is referenced in
>> technical articles, i.e., not at all wild speculation.
>
>No, Joel, the problem is that none of these technical articles have even
>been cited.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-40422000000100019&script=sci_arttext
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 19:23:38
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 13:36:53 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>
>> Problem is, that "wild speculation" about the quality of
>> perceived bitterness is something that is referenced in
>> technical articles, i.e., not at all wild speculation.
>
> No, Joel, the problem is that none of these technical articles have even
> been cited. I have no problem reading something *authoritative* and
> gleaning whatever useful information it might contain. There is also the
> matter of who and what I might consider to be authoritative. The Internet
> provides access to a lot of useful information, but not all of it is
> factual. This newsgroup is no exception.
I don't recall you even asking for sources before you stuck your foot in
your mouth. Do you consider any of the following to be authoritative?
George Fix
Brewing Techniques Magazine
Brew Your Own Magazine
Hops FAQ from realbeer.com
(and many others, those were just the first few I came across)
I don't mean this in a bad way (as I said originally, it's not a topic that
gets talked about much), but do you even know what cohumulones are? I'm
sure some time spent on google would be enlightening. I would suggest
googling for "cohumulone harsh bitterness", which reports 561 results. I
doubt all of them are related, but it should still give you plenty of
information to pick from. That is, if you are really interested.
I suspect what you did was pounce on a topic in order to push your agenda,
without even understanding what it was you were objecting to. I guess it
was just bad luck that you happened to pick a poor example to use.
John.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:39:34
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I don't recall you even asking for sources before you stuck your foot in
> your mouth.
Blow it out your ass, jerk!
> Do you consider any of the following to be authoritative?
> George Fix
Generally.
> Brewing Techniques Magazine
It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
> Brew Your Own Magazine
It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
> Hops FAQ from realbeer.com
It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
> (and many others, those were just the first few I came across)
It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
> I don't mean this in a bad way (as I said originally, it's not a topic
> that gets talked about much), but do you even know what cohumulones are?
Blow it out your ass, jerk!
> I'm sure some time spent on google would be enlightening.
You might try searching google for articles on "manners" and "how not to
insult people".
> I suspect what you did was pounce on a topic in order to push your agenda,
> without even understanding what it was you were objecting to.
What agenda is that? If you think I have some sort of agenda, then no
wonder you are such an ass.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 20:14:00
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:39:34 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> I don't recall you even asking for sources before you stuck your foot in
>> your mouth.
>
> Blow it out your ass, jerk!
If you did ask, I must have missed it.
>> Do you consider any of the following to be authoritative?
>> George Fix
> Generally.
>> Brewing Techniques Magazine
> It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
>> Brew Your Own Magazine
> It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
>> Hops FAQ from realbeer.com
> It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
>> (and many others, those were just the first few I came across)
> It depends on who wrote the article and what evidence they supply.
Certainly understandable, have you read any of what they say on the topic?
If you have, why do you consider my statement to be wild speculation? There
is obviously a lot of information about it out there, it's not like I made
anything up.
>> I don't mean this in a bad way (as I said originally, it's not a topic
>> that gets talked about much), but do you even know what cohumulones are?
>
> Blow it out your ass, jerk!
It was an honest question. I was not being sarcastic, I really did not mean
that in a bad way. I'm sure there are lots of brewers who have not run
across the idea before, it's not exactly something most homebrewing books
talk about.
>> I'm sure some time spent on google would be enlightening.
>
> You might try searching google for articles on "manners" and "how not to
> insult people".
Do you read your own posts? You're questioning my manners in the same post
that you're using phrases towards me like "blow it out your ass". Are you
serious? You actually believe I'm the one being insulting?
>> I suspect what you did was pounce on a topic in order to push your agenda,
>> without even understanding what it was you were objecting to.
>
> What agenda is that?
Given your hostility towards me and the obvious knee-jerk reaction of your
original reply to my statement, it seems pretty clear what your agenda is.
John.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 18:32:37
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> Do you read your own posts?
Yes, I do. I've tried to be patient with you while you constantly make
belittling and insulting comments.
> Are you serious? You actually believe I'm the one being insulting?
Absolutely.
> Given your hostility towards me and the obvious knee-jerk reaction of your
> original reply to my statement, it seems pretty clear what your agenda is.
I don't have any agenda. I am only hostile to those who are hostile to me.
If you have nothing constructive to say to me, I would rather you said
nothing to me at all. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than
that.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 00:37:40
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 18:32:37 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> If you have nothing constructive to say to me, I would rather you said
> nothing to me at all. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than
> that.
I would be happy to have a constructive discussion regarding this topic,
specifically cohumulone levels, quality of bitterness, and why you would
consider my remarks to be speculation. I've tried repeatedly to ask you
questions along those lines. Everytime I do, you ignore them and instead
respond with personal attacks.
John.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:14:23
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I would be happy to have a constructive discussion regarding this topic,
> specifically cohumulone levels, quality of bitterness, and why you would
> consider my remarks to be speculation. I've tried repeatedly to ask you
> questions along those lines. Everytime I do, you ignore them and instead
> respond with personal attacks.
When you quit making your personal attacks along with your so-called
"legitimate questions", then I might consider responding to them.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 12:24:47
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Denny Conn wrote:
>
>
>>It's not wild speculation, Larry. Many of us have proven it to
>>ourselves, even if you haven't.
>
>
> Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though you
> haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
Yes.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 12:54:04
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Larry Bristol wrote:
>> Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though
>> you haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
> Yes.
Thank you for showing everyone what an ass you are.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 21:40:20
From: rjwhite6
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:54:04 -0500, Larry Bristol
<larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
Larry, Please chill.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 07:42:08
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
rjwhite6 wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:54:04 -0500, Larry Bristol
> <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com> wrote:
>
>
> Larry, Please chill.
No doubt.
On one thread about kegs he calls someone a idiot, twice. On another he
tried to argue about sugar and purity of sugar. Now it's another thread,
this time on hops, and more arguing with talk of a civil tongue and
dropping the "A"bomb in the same thread less than 2 hours later.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/msg/63b37a3fed253742
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/msg/3640fe5e2e4dc712
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/browse_frm/thread/dd1938ba579db238/e0118d15b36d1575
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/msg/40cb30fb68dc9ca0
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/msg/553412fa55635b7c
This kind of stuff makes me glad I mostly lurk anymore.
No Cheers,
Mike
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 12:56:21
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>
>>Larry Bristol wrote:
>>
>>>Oh, I see. But if it's something I have proven to myself, even though
>>>you haven't, it *IS* considered to be "wild speculation", is that it?
>
>
>>Yes.
>
>
> Thank you for showing everyone what an ass you are.
You're welcome.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | |
Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:48:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:39:12 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> "Harsh" bitterness versus "smooth" bitterness? And *I* get accused of wild
> speculation?!?
If you want, I can help you to setup a killfile so that you don't need
to read my posts. However, if you would like to continue belittling things
that you don't understand, that's fine with me. You only make yourself
look foolish.
John.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 10:33:47
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> If you want, I can help you to setup a killfile so that you don't need
> to read my posts. However, if you would like to continue belittling
> things that you don't understand, that's fine with me. You only make
> yourself look foolish.
I don't feel foolish about anything at all, especially since it is *YOU*
doing the belittling. I understand a lot more than you think. There is
also the consideration that one should not put a jerk in your killfile; it
is better to keep an eye on them.
CMMFE
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 09:08:28
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> dutchbrew/chicago wrote:
>
>
>>for bittering purposes... why would you use one type of hop as opposed
>>to the other if they both have the same alpha acid %. Does it also add
>>a different flavor profile even though your using them for bittering?
>
>
> The key factor for hop flavor and aroma is the length of time they are
> boiled. The flavor and aroma components are somewhat volatile, and the
> longer they are boiled, the less will remain. In general, aroma components
> boil away much more quickly than flavoring components.
>
> So how long do you boil your bittering hops? For me, such hops are
> typically boiled for 60 minutes or more. With such a long boil,
> practically all of the flavoring and aroma components are lost, meaning
> there is little difference between one variety of hop and another. The
> quality and freshness of the hops are more significant than the variety.
> But if you boil for a shorter time, you will still get *some* bitterness,
> and then, of course, the hop variety is quite significant to the flavor and
> aroma profiles.
>
> "Harsh" bitterness versus "smooth" bitterness? And *I* get accused of wild
> speculation?!?
Traditionally, high cohumulone levels are supposed to be associated with
a less pleasant bittering quality (harsh). This isn't exactly off the
wall stuff, although whether it's really correct or not is somewhat
controversial.
Personally, I usually stick with the low AA varieties mainly because
measurement errors have less impact on the beer than with the high AA
varieties.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Sep 2006 09:49:38
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Traditionally, high cohumulone levels are supposed to be associated with
> a less pleasant bittering quality (harsh). This isn't exactly off the
> wall stuff, although whether it's really correct or not is somewhat
> controversial.
Oh. I see... <snicker >
> Personally, I usually stick with the low AA varieties mainly because
> measurement errors have less impact on the beer than with the high AA
> varieties.
That's my thinking, also. Not to mention the fact that I frequently do
"first wort hopping", which means that some flavoring components will not
get boiled away (even after 60 minutes). I don't use just any old source
of AA for bittering!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 19:48:30
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com >:
>The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
[...]
>> Personally, I usually stick with the low AA varieties mainly because
>> measurement errors have less impact on the beer than with the high AA
>> varieties.
>That's my thinking, also. Not to mention the fact that I
>frequently do "first wort hopping", which means that some
>flavoring components will not get boiled away (even after 60
>minutes). I don't use just any old source of AA for bittering!
I've first wort hopped a few times now, but so far haven't been
counting this towards bittering, just flavor. Reading this
discussion, it dawns on me I should probably be counting FWH hops
as bittering hops as well.
Nothing to add or anything. Just kind of a eureka moment.
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 19:59:28
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:48:30 GMT, <scottsellers@mindspring.com > wrote:
> I've first wort hopped a few times now, but so far haven't been
> counting this towards bittering, just flavor. Reading this
> discussion, it dawns on me I should probably be counting FWH hops
> as bittering hops as well.
That's what I do. Oddly enough, most sources suggest that FWH hops will
contribute less bitterness to the beer than traditional bittering hops,
even through they're in the boil for the full amount. I've seen lots of
different numbers, but usually something around being equivalent to a 20
minute boil with regards to the utilization. Generally the reasoning is that
since the FWH hops are added before the hot break occurs (bittering hops
are usually added after), the hot break material forming on the surface of
the hops will interfere with the isomerization. I can't claim to completely
understand it, but it does make some sense and seems to correlate with my own
experience.
IMO, I wouldn't count the FWH hops towards a full boil utilization, otherwise
you may end up undershooting your IBUs. So, yes they should be counted towards
bitterness, but probably not as much as you might first think.
John.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:54:29
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Scott Sellers wrote:
> I've first wort hopped a few times now, but so far haven't been
> counting this towards bittering, just flavor. Reading this
> discussion, it dawns on me I should probably be counting FWH hops
> as bittering hops as well.
Yes, you should count them towards bittering also. [Unless you are taking
them out before the boil, I suppose. <g >] My experience with FWH has been
very positive.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | |
Date: 06 Sep 2006 14:05:37
From: Joel
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>"Harsh" bitterness versus "smooth" bitterness? And *I* get accused of wild
>speculation?!?
It's been fairly well established that certain components
in hops give different characteristics to the overall effect.
That's why a hop analysis has things like alpha acid percentage,
beta acid percentage, cohumulone, colupulone, etc. Alpha acids
are the primary parameter in that it dictates overall bittering
potential. However, cohumulone is understood to give a more
"harsh" (for lack of a better word; I think something like
"edgy" or "sharp" has less negative connotations) quality
to the bitterness.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
|
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 13:03:21
From: dutchbrew/chicago
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
> Not so much flavor, but there are different characteristics to the
> bitterness. More of a "harsh" vs "smooth" bitterness quality.
hmm ive brewed 2 different ipas and the only difference was i used to
chinook in one and northern brewer in the other for bittering. i
thought something went wrong in the mash or fermentation for the
chinook batch which also had too much carbonation. It turned out alot
different than the northern brewer batch and i guess i wasnt used to
the harsh bitterness of it. the caronation only made matters worse im
sure.
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| |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 06:33:36
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: bittering hops
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Larry Bristol wrote:
> > Denny Conn wrote:
> >
> > In fact, my big hangup is the terminology. Phrases like "harsh bitterness"
> > versus "smooth bitterness" are essentially undefinable and horribly
> > subjective. It would make just as much sense to call it "red" versus
> > "blue" bitterness. Subjective flavor comparisons such as this (another
> > that jumps to mind for some reason is the undefined term "cidery") are iffy
> > at best, and next to impossible unless everyone involved has a clear
> > definition of that flavor.
>
> I think I hear the term "pleasant bitterness" versus "unpleasant
> bitterness" used often. Subjective still, -- but then so is taste.
>
>
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
Last I checked, EVERYTHING about taste is subjective.
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