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Date: 13 Jul 2006 14:07:37
From: rb
Subject: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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The last couple of brews I've done have had a similar flaw. A strong
(non-hop like) bitterness, not pleasant. These have been kit + extract +
specialty grain. With the grains I've put them in a pot, added hot tap
water, put on the stove top with the heating element on its lowest
setting, stirred occassionaly, turned off heat after about five minutes,
stirred some more and left for half an hour or so. The temperature of
the liquid would not have gotten above 50 degrees C. I then drain the
liquid through a hop bag. I then 'sparge' the grains with some cold tap
water and filter that as well. Is this too vigorous a procedure? Am I
likely to be extracting the tannins?
cheers
rb
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 05:11:09
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:07:37 +1000, <snafu_1@lycos.com > wrote:
> The last couple of brews I've done have had a similar flaw. A strong
> (non-hop like) bitterness, not pleasant. These have been kit + extract +
> specialty grain. With the grains I've put them in a pot, added hot tap
> water, put on the stove top with the heating element on its lowest
> setting, stirred occassionaly, turned off heat after about five minutes,
> stirred some more and left for half an hour or so. The temperature of
> the liquid would not have gotten above 50 degrees C. I then drain the
> liquid through a hop bag. I then 'sparge' the grains with some cold tap
> water and filter that as well. Is this too vigorous a procedure? Am I
> likely to be extracting the tannins?
Astringency is often described as a bitterness, but it's not really
an actual flavor, more like a sensation. Think of the feeling you
would get by chewing grape skins or sucking on a tea bag. Sort of a dry
sensation.
Your temp sounds good. 50C (122F) is actually a little lower than normal
for steeping specialty grains. IMO, be very careful when sparging the
grains though. With the small amount of specialty grains, it is very
easy to oversparge them. What I would try doing is following the same
procedure, but don't sparge with cold tap water next time. Just use the
water from the steeping. See if that makes a difference.
John.
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:59:03
From: rb
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> [snip]
> Astringency is often described as a bitterness, but it's not really
> an actual flavor, more like a sensation. Think of the feeling you
> would get by chewing grape skins or sucking on a tea bag. Sort of a dry
> sensation.
>
Thanks John, I used bitterness as it was the best short description I
could come up with. Quinine like might be another way of describing it.
rb
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 14:27:11
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:59:03 +1000, <snafu_1@lycos.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Astringency is often described as a bitterness, but it's not really
>> an actual flavor, more like a sensation. Think of the feeling you
>> would get by chewing grape skins or sucking on a tea bag. Sort of a dry
>> sensation.
>>
> Thanks John, I used bitterness as it was the best short description I
> could come up with. Quinine like might be another way of describing it.
No problem, a lot of people describe it that way. I just wanted to make
sure we were both thinking of the same thing.
John.
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 12:59:46
From: Bill O'Meally
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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rb wrote:
With the grains I've put them in a pot,
> added hot tap water, put on the stove top with the heating element on
> its lowest setting,
<snip >
When you say "hot tap water" are you referring to hot water out of the
tap, or are you heating up cold tap water? Hot tap water has all sorts
of dissolved minerals and rust in it that could give your brew an off
flavor. I wouldn't use hot tap water for anything but bathing.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 05:11:43
From: trequites
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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Could it be yeast bite?
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 00:20:42
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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"trequites" <spam.me.trequites@spamgourmet.com > wrote in message
news:1152792702.949106.249190@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Could it be yeast bite?
Yeast bite, to me, tastes like rubber or burnt matches. It doesn't sound to
me like that's what he was describing.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:43:00
From: Phil
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:07:37 +1000, rb <snafu_1@lycos.com > wrote:
> I then 'sparge' the grains with some cold tap
>water and filter that as well. Is this too vigorous a procedure? Am I
>likely to be extracting the tannins?
If the water pressure is too high, you might be squeezing the grain,
releasing the tannins.
Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 05:56:33
From: trequites
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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The 2 brews previous to my last had a similar sort of effect. A strong
bitterness from two different beers that I'd made previously to the
same recipes, too. I felt sure that it came from the yeast, somehow. I
wondered if it was caused by too high a fermentation temperature - it's
been a bit warm in the UK recently, and I've got out of the habit of
checking my fermentation temperatures.
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 00:24:03
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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"rb" <snafu_1@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:44b5c687$0$29230$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com...
> The last couple of brews I've done have had a similar flaw. A strong
> (non-hop like) bitterness, not pleasant. These have been kit + extract +
> specialty grain. With the grains I've put them in a pot, added hot tap
> water, put on the stove top with the heating element on its lowest
> setting, stirred occassionaly, turned off heat after about five minutes,
> stirred some more and left for half an hour or so. The temperature of the
> liquid would not have gotten above 50 degrees C. I then drain the liquid
> through a hop bag. I then 'sparge' the grains with some cold tap water and
> filter that as well. Is this too vigorous a procedure? Am I likely to be
> extracting the tannins?
There's quite a few things going on here. First of all, I assume you are
steeping just a few ounces of specialty grains (or perhaps even a pound or
so) in several gallons of tap water? If so, the gravity is very low while
the pH is very high. Both low gravity and high pH cause extraction of
tannins, especially if you are doing an extended steep for more than 30
minutes. (Notice I did NOT say "mini-mash", as you did not specify whether
any base malt was used, only specialty grains. You can't really do a mash
without the enzymes provided by base malt.) Regardless, in a regular mash,
a pH value of 5.7 or 5.8 would be the upper limit to avoid extracting
tannins... Your extended steep, on the other hand, could be up to a pH of 7
or 8, depending on how thin the mash is and what your water quality is.
Subsequent "sparging" just makes matters worse. With a regular mash, you
don't want to sparge below a gravity of 1.010. You're probably down there
with a thin extended steep. So, with the extended steep, you've already
extracted plenty of tannins due to high pH and low gravity, and then with
the "sparge", you're doing it all over again, extracting even more tannins.
All this doesn't even get into the possibilities that perhaps the specialty
malt was crushed too fine, which also causes astringency, or certain grains
may be more prone to astringency such as American Munich & Vienna (at least
according to Ray Daniels, the "Alton Brown" of homebrewing). All of these
things are potential causes.
My advice to you? If you want to steep some specialty grains for additional
flavor or whathaveyou, but still want to use kits and extracts for the vast
majority of the fermentables, then steep for only as long as it takes to get
your water to a maximum of 168 F (another limit, above which you could
potentially extract tannins), then quit... and do NOT sparge. The steep
should take less than the 40+ minutes that it appears you have done in the
past, maybe more like 15-20 minutes, which shouldn't have as much adverse
effect, not to mention that you'd be skipping the sparge. The sparge may in
fact be the root cause here, but I can't be absolutely sure, there are far
too many variables.
In a nutshell, don't steep for more than a few minutes, and don't sparge.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
P.S. Should you ever try your hand at a real mini-mash that includes a high
percentage of base malt (such as 2-row), use 1 quart water per 1 pound grain
for the mash, and you should be relatively free and clear of the pH and
gravity issues, even including a small sparge. Add the rest of your water
after the mini-mash is over and done.
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 06:00:39
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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"David M. Taylor" <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com > wrote in message
news:SUFtg.336$OI5.326@fe07.lga...
> "rb" <snafu_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:44b5c687$0$29230$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com...
<snip > The sparge may in
> fact be the root cause here, but I can't be absolutely sure, there are far
> too many variables.
>
> In a nutshell, don't steep for more than a few minutes, and don't sparge.
>
> --
> Dave
> "Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
> Genesis, 1973-ish
>
> P.S. Should you ever try your hand at a real mini-mash that includes a
> high percentage of base malt (such as 2-row), use 1 quart water per 1
> pound grain for the mash, and you should be relatively free and clear of
> the pH and gravity issues, even including a small sparge. Add the rest of
> your water after the mini-mash is over and done.
I think there is something else going on here that the OP has omitted
telling us.
Did he add more hops? If so when and how. How long has the beer aged? New*
beer doesn't taste all that good and what turns out to be a nice hop
presence after proper aging can bite your tongue off at a very early stage.
I really can't imagine any tannin extraction from a few grains used as he
described, making any difference whatsoever. That being said, I do exclude
such practices as using 1 kilo of roast barley or something equally bizarre.
Then there is possible infection, maybe an errant vinegar fly or something.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 16:16:58
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:00:39 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
> I really can't imagine any tannin extraction from a few grains used as he
> described, making any difference whatsoever.
I've had it happen to me before. One comment I posted already was that
it's very easy to oversparge specialty grains, and that I recommend not
sparging them at all. Guess how I know. ;)
John.
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Date: 15 Jul 2006 22:39:37
From: rb
Subject: Re: astringency - extracted from speciality grain?
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> "David M. Taylor" <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com> wrote in message
> news:SUFtg.336$OI5.326@fe07.lga...
>> "rb" <snafu_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:44b5c687$0$29230$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com...
> <snip> The sparge may in
>> fact be the root cause here, but I can't be absolutely sure, there are far
>> too many variables.
>>
>> In a nutshell, don't steep for more than a few minutes, and don't sparge.
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>> "Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
>> Genesis, 1973-ish
>>
>> P.S. Should you ever try your hand at a real mini-mash that includes a
>> high percentage of base malt (such as 2-row), use 1 quart water per 1
>> pound grain for the mash, and you should be relatively free and clear of
>> the pH and gravity issues, even including a small sparge. Add the rest of
>> your water after the mini-mash is over and done.
> I think there is something else going on here that the OP has omitted
> telling us.
> Did he add more hops? If so when and how. How long has the beer aged? New*
> beer doesn't taste all that good and what turns out to be a nice hop
> presence after proper aging can bite your tongue off at a very early stage.
> I really can't imagine any tannin extraction from a few grains used as he
> described, making any difference whatsoever. That being said, I do exclude
> such practices as using 1 kilo of roast barley or something equally bizarre.
> Then there is possible infection, maybe an errant vinegar fly or something.
> Steve W (in Aus)
>
>
This was straight specialty grains, no mashing, no hops. Say almost 500g
in total in 4 litres of water (crystal, caramunich, carapils). I was
wondering about the pH thing.
It's winter here and the ferment temp has been under 20 degees C,
usually around 16 actually. Yeast is wlp023 burton ale.
cheers
rb
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