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Date: 26 Jul 2006 07:51:01
From:
Subject: advice on first lager
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Brewers,
I finally have facilities in which to lager. I'm thinking of brewing a
Pilsner this weekend. I'm not the biggest fan of the style, but there
are a couple that I like quite a bit. Victory Prima Pils is probably
my favorite to date. I have a few questions about how to reproduce
something similar.
1) Yeast? I haven't the foggiest idea about the various lager strains
out there, never having used one. I have access to most White labs
strains, and few if any Wyeast.
2) I know Prima uses only 2-row German pilsner malt. How do they get
that nice malty flavor? Am I looking at my first decion here as
well?
3) I know Prima uses Czech and German whole flower hops for about 50-60
IBU's. Any more specific advice? I'm thinking German Hallertau and
Czech Saaz, but I don't know what schedule to use.
4) Prima is clear as a bell. I've had pretty clear beers before, but
nothing like this. Do they filter? Are there some fancy tricks that
(homebrewing) folks use to get there light lagers to clear up nicely in
relatively short order?
As always, thanks for the tips!
-Nick
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 16:29:25
From: Derric
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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> 1) Yeast? I haven't the foggiest idea about the various lager strains
> out there, never having used one. I have access to most White labs
> strains, and few if any Wyeast.
I like WLP800 (Pilsner Lager). One odd thing about it, tho' ...
it seems to build a permanent kraeusen on the fermenting beer! So go
by the gravity to determine when it is done because the kraeusen will
never fall! :) Other excellent ones that would work fine are WLP830
(German Lager) and WLP820 (Oktoberfest).
> 2) I know Prima uses only 2-row German pilsner malt. How do they get
> that nice malty flavor? Am I looking at my first decion here as
> well?
While a decion might be fun, :) I think you'd be satisfied without
it. Some here say there isn't a detectible difference anyway. This
recipe make a good pilsner (evolved from a Pilsner Urquell clone):
9 lbs Pilsner malt
2 oz Light Munich malt
8 oz 2.5L German crystal malt (used CaraFoam)
0.5 oz Saaz Hops (bittering)
0.6 oz Northern Brewer Hops (I only used these because
I had them leftover. I usually just use
Saaz for bittering.)
1 oz Saaz Hops (flavor)
1 oz Saaz Hops (aroma)
1 tsp Irish Moss
If you let a clear bottle skunk in sunlight for a little bit, it is
exactly like PU! :)
> 3) I know Prima uses Czech and German whole flower hops for about 50-60
> IBU's. Any more specific advice? I'm thinking German Hallertau and
> Czech Saaz, but I don't know what schedule to use.
I've never had Prima (not available anywhere near here), so I don't
know about that. I've used Hallertau in a Warsteiner clone and they
were excellent too (1.5oz bitter, 0.5oz flavor) but it sounds like you
want it more bitter than that!
> 4) Prima is clear as a bell. I've had pretty clear beers before, but
> nothing like this. Do they filter? Are there some fancy tricks that
> (homebrewing) folks use to get there light lagers to clear up nicely in
> relatively short order?
While my lagers are usually clear, they're never as clear as the
commercial example (a side-by-side comparision always shows this).
I use Irish Moss in the boil and then the lagering phase should help
with clearing the rest. I do this schedule:
1.5 weeks primary @ 50F.
0.5 week diaceytl rest @ 65F.
Rack.
2 weeks secondary @ 50F.
4 weeks lager @ 33F.
Bottle and carbonate @ room temp for 2 weeks.
Derric
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 23:37:42
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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"Derric" <derric1961@removethis.yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:slrnecf635.h0f.derric1961@bhm29.hiwaay.net...
>
> 9 lbs Pilsner malt
> 2 oz Light Munich malt
> 8 oz 2.5L German crystal malt (used CaraFoam)
> 0.5 oz Saaz Hops (bittering)
> 0.6 oz Northern Brewer Hops (I only used these because
> I had them leftover. I usually just use
> Saaz for bittering.)
> 1 oz Saaz Hops (flavor)
> 1 oz Saaz Hops (aroma)
> 1 tsp Irish Moss
> If you let a clear bottle skunk in sunlight for a little bit, it is
> exactly like PU! :)
>
To chime in here, I really can't imagine that 2oz of munich malt will make
any perceivable difference.
I agree that you should not use low alpha hops for bittering unless you only
want a lightly hopped beer (say 10-12 ibu)
And, if you buy PU by the unopened case and check the use-by date, it's
skunk free.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 17:38:07
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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Derric <derric1961@removethis.yahoo.com > wrote:
<major snip >
> While my lagers are usually clear, they're never as clear as the
> commercial example (a side-by-side comparision always shows this).
> I use Irish Moss in the boil and then the lagering phase should help
> with clearing the rest. I do this schedule:
> 1.5 weeks primary @ 50F.
> 0.5 week diaceytl rest @ 65F.
I'm getting ready to do my first lager style as well and I see that
some folks do a diacetyl rest for all of their lagers. Can this ever
have a negative effect, or is it always safe to do, in a "just in
case" fashion?
Palmer's words about bringing wort and starter down to (say) 50F prior
to pitching to avoid diacetyls are stuck in my head.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html
> Rack.
> 2 weeks secondary @ 50F.
Wasn't expecting that. Most recipes I've seen go from primary to
lagering. Again, I'm just studying, here, haven't done it yet.
> 4 weeks lager @ 33F.
> Bottle and carbonate @ room temp for 2 weeks.
>
> Derric
>
The only thing I would add to all the excellent comments so far is for
the OP to get a water profile/assay to determine hardness and mineral
content and see how that will effect recipes. I'm waiting for my
results to return now!
Thanks - JB
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 20:32:37
From: Derric
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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>> Rack.
>> 2 weeks secondary @ 50F.
>
> Wasn't expecting that. Most recipes I've seen go from primary to
> lagering. Again, I'm just studying, here, haven't done it yet.
Agreed. Once you start looking, there are very few written examples
in any books about what your exact schedule should be. I made mine
up based on what little I could find and it has worked well. If the
ferment starts fast and goes fast, the secondary may not be necessary.
Often the secondary is short. I vary it depending upon circumstances.
For example, I have gone 3 weeks primary and then just one week in
secondary and I've done almost 4 weeks "primary" and gone straight
to lagering. I don't think it really matters too much.
Derric
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 12:23:50
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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Just some random thoughts......
Have you tried e-mailing them? You might not get a response, but
sometimes you'll find a friendly brewer who won't mind answering a few
questions.
I'd use something with a bit more punch than Hallertauer for
bittering, or you'll end up using a ton of it. Bitburger (just as an
example) uses Magnum and Taurus for bittering.
I'd probably opt for the Czech pils yeast, but it's been a long time
since I've had a Prima Pils, so I don't remember it very well.
If you want really clear beer quickly, you'll probably have to filter,
or at least try gelatin and/or polyclar (I believe they work on
different things).
Instead of a decion, you could try throwing in some melanoidin malt
(maybe up to 5-7%). I'll darken it a little, but it adds a nice
maltiness.
On 26 Jul 2006 07:51:01 -0700, naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
>Brewers,
>
>I finally have facilities in which to lager. I'm thinking of brewing a
>Pilsner this weekend. I'm not the biggest fan of the style, but there
>are a couple that I like quite a bit. Victory Prima Pils is probably
>my favorite to date. I have a few questions about how to reproduce
>something similar.
>
>1) Yeast? I haven't the foggiest idea about the various lager strains
>out there, never having used one. I have access to most White labs
>strains, and few if any Wyeast.
>
>2) I know Prima uses only 2-row German pilsner malt. How do they get
>that nice malty flavor? Am I looking at my first decion here as
>well?
>
>3) I know Prima uses Czech and German whole flower hops for about 50-60
>IBU's. Any more specific advice? I'm thinking German Hallertau and
>Czech Saaz, but I don't know what schedule to use.
>
>4) Prima is clear as a bell. I've had pretty clear beers before, but
>nothing like this. Do they filter? Are there some fancy tricks that
>(homebrewing) folks use to get there light lagers to clear up nicely in
>relatively short order?
>
>As always, thanks for the tips!
>
>-Nick
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 12:51:40
From:
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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> You mentioned 50-60 IBU's. This is, IMHO, way too much. I would shoot
> for 40 or less.
Thanks for the comments. I hadn't thought too much about the water yet.
I've got a water report, so I'll have another look at it.
As for the IBU's - I know this is above the normal guidelines. I'm
still working my way into the ligher flavored beers, so I decided to go
for something with a little more umph. Since, I'm fond of Prima Pils
(which is a good 50 IBU's) I thought I go that route.
-Nick
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 12:19:28
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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Just throwing in some thoughts:
My favourite yeast is WLP802 Budejovice lager yeast -- I find this
produces zero diacetyl and I don't bother with a rest.
While others will disagree with me, I get excellent results from
pitching warm then lowering the temperature down to 10C. Lagering
clears up any esters that are produced in this time. I don't bother
with a secondary, and often I do all or part of the lagering in the
primary.
You will be looking for soft water, probably low in sulphates. You
might benefit from using spring water or something. You will need some
calcium in there to help acidify your mash, though, if you're not using
any crystal malts. You can produce a great pilsner from just pilsner
malt, and for some maltiness you could add some light Munich, or use a
single decion to do a beta-alpha rest.
Think about your hops, too. If you're producing a fuller bodied
Bohemian pils, use only Saaz. If you're going for a lighter German
pils, you can choose from all the noble hops. Best are saaz, perle,
tettnanger, spalt, hallertau & NB.
You mentioned 50-60 IBU's. This is, IMHO, way too much. I would shoot
for 40 or less.
Good luck,
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 17:31:47
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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My answers are selective because I can't say much about some of these.
naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
> 1) Yeast? I haven't the foggiest idea about the various lager strains
> out there, never having used one. I have access to most White labs
> strains, and few if any Wyeast.
Start with the BYO chart:
http://www.byo.com/referenceguide/yeaststrains/lager1.html
Make a large starter because there's more lag time with lager yeast.
> 4) Prima is clear as a bell. I've had pretty clear beers before, but
> nothing like this. Do they filter? Are there some fancy tricks that
> (homebrewing) folks use to get there light lagers to clear up nicely in
> relatively short order?
The lagering should help dramatically in clarifying the beer. Using a
yeast that settles well will help on top of that. Let it lager (the
colder secondary fermentation) for at least a month.
> As always, thanks for the tips!
Keep a small amount of trub so you retain some yeast for bottling.
Otherwise it won't carbonate.
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Date: 27 Jul 2006 08:48:56
From: Mark Sparge
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> > If you let a clear bottle skunk in sunlight for a little bit, it is
> > exactly like PU! :)
> >
>
> To chime in here, I really can't imagine that 2oz of munich malt will make
> any perceivable difference.
> I agree that you should not use low alpha hops for bittering unless you only
> want a lightly hopped beer (say 10-12 ibu)
> And, if you buy PU by the unopened case and check the use-by date, it's
> skunk free.
> Steve W (in Aus)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a tad OT --- my sweet wife brought back a CASE of PU in cans from
a trip to Canada awhile back. No skunk!!! I now know what it's really
supposed to taste like.
Mark
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 09:27:36
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: advice on first lager
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naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
>
> > You mentioned 50-60 IBU's. This is, IMHO, way too much. I would shoot
> > for 40 or less.
>
> Thanks for the comments. I hadn't thought too much about the water yet.
> I've got a water report, so I'll have another look at it.
Keep in mind what you're going for is a N. German pils, not a Bopils.
That's the style I tend to brew, too. You need fairly carbonate water,
not soft water. And shooting for 50 IBUs isn't out of line at all for
this style. I target Prima for my pils and typically end up about 55
IBU.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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