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Date: 24 Jul 2006 07:36:05
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Wort chilling water direction
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With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the top
it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and quite
warm chilling water in the chiller.
What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 08:35:42
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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> Stirring a 10 gallon batch got to be a serious PITA! But I did it none
> the less as it really does help with surface area and heat transfer.
One 'word' - CFC - :-)
> I believe that my loverly wife is getting me a counterflow chiller for
> my birthday on Labor day. That will remove all the monkeys from the
> chilling process. But until then the pump has at least taken some of the
> manual labor out of it.
Ah.... Good girl.
cheers,
Mark
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:48:54
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:36:05 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
> With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
> doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
> I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
> while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
> then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
> cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the top
> it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and quite
> warm chilling water in the chiller.
> What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
If you're just going to let the chiller sit undisturbed in the wort then
it probably doesn't make too much difference. Gently stirring the wort
periodically is going to make a much bigger difference than what direction
the water runs in.
So, basically, yes the wort is hotter towards the top. But the best way of
addressing that is with stirring, not really with changing the direction
of flow through the chiller.
To address your question though, bottom to top actually does make some sense.
If you run bottom to top then the water warms up some by chilling the cooler
wort first, but it's still cold enough to chill the hotest wort last. If you
run it top to bottom, then it will be really cold while chilling the hotest
wort, but it will warm up to the point that it probably won't do much
cooling on the cooler bottom wort. Bottom to top means that you are
chilling everything to some degree. Top to bottom means that you are chilling
the top a lot, but not really chilling the bottom at all. If it means
anything, most of the commercial chillers I've seen flow bottom to top.
I have seen some chillers that have a higher concentration of coils towards
the top compared to the bottom. I think they still flow bottom to top though.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 08:24:13
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:36:05 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
>> With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
>> doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
>> I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
>> while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
>> then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
>> cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the top
>> it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and quite
>> warm chilling water in the chiller.
>> What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
>
> If you're just going to let the chiller sit undisturbed in the wort then
> it probably doesn't make too much difference. Gently stirring the wort
> periodically is going to make a much bigger difference than what direction
> the water runs in.
>
> So, basically, yes the wort is hotter towards the top. But the best way of
> addressing that is with stirring, not really with changing the direction
> of flow through the chiller.
>
> To address your question though, bottom to top actually does make some sense.
> If you run bottom to top then the water warms up some by chilling the cooler
> wort first, but it's still cold enough to chill the hotest wort last. If you
> run it top to bottom, then it will be really cold while chilling the hotest
> wort, but it will warm up to the point that it probably won't do much
> cooling on the cooler bottom wort. Bottom to top means that you are
> chilling everything to some degree. Top to bottom means that you are chilling
> the top a lot, but not really chilling the bottom at all. If it means
> anything, most of the commercial chillers I've seen flow bottom to top.
>
> I have seen some chillers that have a higher concentration of coils towards
> the top compared to the bottom. I think they still flow bottom to top though.
>
>
> John.
Stirring a 10 gallon batch got to be a serious PITA! But I did it none
the less as it really does help with surface area and heat transfer.
I am about four batches into having a pump now, and I have found that I
no longer have to stir. Instead, once the chiller has knocked off the
first 60 degrees or so (which it seems to do quickly) I recirculate the
wort back into the top of the keggle about three inches below liquid
level. I also run the return tube around the inside of the keggle a
little so that the returning wort creates a minor whirlpool. I will run
the pump for about 30 seconds, then not for a couple of minutes, then
again for 30 seconds....
I do recirc. for the last 30 seconds of the boil as well to make sure
that the boiling liquid has sanitized my pump before using it to move
chilled wort.
I believe that my loverly wife is getting me a counterflow chiller for
my birthday on Labor day. That will remove all the monkeys from the
chilling process. But until then the pump has at least taken some of the
manual labor out of it.
Ryan
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 15:36:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:24:13 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> I am about four batches into having a pump now, and I have found that I
> no longer have to stir. Instead, once the chiller has knocked off the
> first 60 degrees or so (which it seems to do quickly) I recirculate the
> wort back into the top of the keggle about three inches below liquid
> level. I also run the return tube around the inside of the keggle a
> little so that the returning wort creates a minor whirlpool. I will run
> the pump for about 30 seconds, then not for a couple of minutes, then
> again for 30 seconds....
That's a pretty cool idea!
John.
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 21:13:31
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
> If you're just going to let the chiller sit undisturbed in the wort then
> it probably doesn't make too much difference. Gently stirring the wort
> periodically is going to make a much bigger difference than what direction
> the water runs in.
>
> So, basically, yes the wort is hotter towards the top. But the best way of
> addressing that is with stirring, not really with changing the direction
> of flow through the chiller.
>
> To address your question though, bottom to top actually does make some sense.
> If you run bottom to top then the water warms up some by chilling the cooler
> wort first, but it's still cold enough to chill the hotest wort last. If you
> run it top to bottom, then it will be really cold while chilling the hotest
> wort, but it will warm up to the point that it probably won't do much
> cooling on the cooler bottom wort. Bottom to top means that you are
> chilling everything to some degree. Top to bottom means that you are chilling
> the top a lot, but not really chilling the bottom at all. If it means
> anything, most of the commercial chillers I've seen flow bottom to top.
>
> I have seen some chillers that have a higher concentration of coils towards
> the top compared to the bottom. I think they still flow bottom to top though.
Just the way I would have analyzed it. It's kind of like a counterflow cooler.
Cool the coolest wort with the coolest water.
Bob
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 07:11:30
From: Richard Kaszeta
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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"Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > writes:
> With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
> doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
Heat doesn't really rise, it makes fluids less dense, and then bouyancy
makes them rise.
> I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
> while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
> then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
> cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the top
> it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and quite
> warm chilling water in the chiller.
> What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
> Steve W (in Aus)
Top entry is better, since it enforces some natural convection.
The real answer, however, is that forced convection almost always is
better than natural convection, so just stir the wort gently
(i.e. don't kick up too much of the break). That is much more
effective.
--
Richard W Kaszeta
rich@kaszeta.org
http://www.kaszeta.org/rich
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 05:05:23
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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I found that the biggest difference was made by gently stirring the
wort from time to time as the wort immediately around the coil would be
cool, and the rest was still hot.
Regards,
Mark
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 18:14:03
From: Josh Button
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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"Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote in message
news:FL_wg.10339$tE5.8217@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
> doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
> I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
> while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
> then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
> cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the
> top it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and
> quite warm chilling water in the chiller.
> What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
> Steve W (in Aus)
The regulars used to tell people to do a google search on this as it had
been done to death.
Short answer, you are correct. Chill from the top to the bottom.
--
Josh Button
To see how the Penrith Gaels Cricket Club is going...
http://penrithgaelscc.4t.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 13:12:57
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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Josh Button wrote:
> "Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote in message
> news:FL_wg.10339$tE5.8217@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>>With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
>>doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
>>I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
>>while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
>>then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
>>cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the
>>top it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and
>>quite warm chilling water in the chiller.
>>What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
>>Steve W (in Aus)
>
>
> The regulars used to tell people to do a google search on this as it had
> been done to death.
>
> Short answer, you are correct. Chill from the top to the bottom.
Ah -- but Steve is in Australia where -- as I'm sure we all know --
cold fluids RISE and warm fluids SINK. Southern hemisphere, you know...
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 18:26:48
From: Bart Goddard
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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mikey666@666swampgas.666com wrote:
> Ah -- but Steve is in Australia where -- as I'm sure we all know --
> cold fluids RISE and warm fluids SINK. Southern hemisphere, you
> know...
I've heard that genders are reveresed down there, also. True?
B.
--
The man without a .sig
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:36:05
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape.net > wrote:
> mikey666@666swampgas.666com wrote:
>> Ah -- but Steve is in Australia where -- as I'm sure we all know --
>> cold fluids RISE and warm fluids SINK. Southern hemisphere, you
>> know...
> I've heard that genders are reveresed down there, also. True?
Only to the extent that women force themselves on men.
Dick
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 20:18:08
From: Bart Goddard
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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rdadams@smart.net wrote:
>> I've heard that genders are reveresed down there, also. True?
>
> Only to the extent that women force themselves on men.
I'm packin' my bags as I type.
B.
--
The man without a .sig
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 16:29:12
From: Josh Button
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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"Dick Adams" <rdadams@smart.net > wrote in message
news:12ca895ne53m529@corp.supernews.com...
> Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape.net> wrote:
>> mikey666@666swampgas.666com wrote:
>
>>> Ah -- but Steve is in Australia where -- as I'm sure we all know --
>>> cold fluids RISE and warm fluids SINK. Southern hemisphere, you
>>> know...
>
>> I've heard that genders are reveresed down there, also. True?
>
> Only to the extent that women force themselves on men.
>
Unfortunately not in the bars I frequent.
Or is that just me?? lol
--
Josh Button
To see how the Penrith Gaels Cricket Club is going...
http://penrithgaelscc.4t.com
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 06:37:00
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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Josh Button <melandjosh_nospam_@optusnet.com.au > wrote:
> "Dick Adams" <rdadams@smart.net> wrote:
>> Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape.net> wrote:
>>> mikey666@666swampgas.666com wrote:
>>>> Ah -- but Steve is in Australia where -- as I'm sure we all know --
>>>> cold fluids RISE and warm fluids SINK. Southern hemisphere, you
>>>> know...
>>> I've heard that genders are reveresed down there, also. True?
>> Only to the extent that women force themselves on men.
> Unfortunately not in the bars I frequent.
> Or is that just me?? lol
In bars, women have the pick of the liter and you still have to
pick them up. But when you get them back to their place, ....
Dick
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Date: 25 Jul 2006 12:09:25
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Wort chilling water direction
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Steve/Aus wrote:
>
> With my imersion chiller, I run the water from bottom to top. But this
> doesn't make a lot of sense being that heat rises.
> I notice that by feeling the water coming out of the chiller that after a
> while it runs cool. When I jiggle the chiller up and down in the wort it
> then comes out quite hot again. This proves to me that the wort is quite
> cool at the bottom and hot at the top. As the water winds through to the top
> it gradually warms up until when at the top you've got hot wort and quite
> warm chilling water in the chiller.
> What are thoughts on the best method? top entry cold or bottom entry cold.
> Steve W (in Aus)
Steve, I appreciate your attempt to apply logic to this, but I've tried
both ways and found that it made no measurable difference. Do whichever
makes you happy...
--------------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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