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Date: 10 Nov 2006 03:23:01
From: MarkMc
Subject: What does % mean in grist composition?
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This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
does that mean?
It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
gravity contribution.
What's usual?
cheers,
Mark
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 10:16:34
From:
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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Unfortunately, people usually seem to mean percentage by weight. This
has the distinct disadvantage that the sugar composition of the final
wort will be dependent on mash efficiency.
For what it's worth, I asked Stan Hieronymus the question specifically
about the recipes in Brew Like a Monk since there are lots of different
recipes with various kinds of sugars, and he said they were all by
weight.
-Nick
MarkMc wrote:
> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
> that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
> does that mean?
>
> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
> gravity contribution.
>
> What's usual?
>
> cheers,
> Mark
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 19:27:24
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
> Unfortunately, people usually seem to mean percentage by weight. This
> has the distinct disadvantage that the sugar composition of the final
> wort will be dependent on mash efficiency.
<snip >
It seems to me that using a "percentage of weight" will work iff all
the grains involved provide the same amount of GU per pound of
grain. We know this isn't the case, so I don't see how this could work
consistently, though I suppose it's all in how one lays out one's
recipes.
If someone suggests "using rye at 10% of the grain bill" I see that as
rye contributing to 10% of the OG. Am I just picking nits? I have a
coupla recipes to write up tonight, I'm going to try this on paper.
(valiantly resists the urge to Once Again (tm) spend Friday afternoon
in his office at "work" working on grain bill calculations....)
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 13:35:31
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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John Bleichert wrote:
> naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
>> Unfortunately, people usually seem to mean percentage by weight. This
>> has the distinct disadvantage that the sugar composition of the final
>> wort will be dependent on mash efficiency.
> <snip>
>
> It seems to me that using a "percentage of weight" will work iff all
> the grains involved provide the same amount of GU per pound of
> grain. We know this isn't the case, so I don't see how this could work
> consistently, though I suppose it's all in how one lays out one's
> recipes.
>
> If someone suggests "using rye at 10% of the grain bill" I see that as
> rye contributing to 10% of the OG. Am I just picking nits? I have a
> coupla recipes to write up tonight, I'm going to try this on paper.
>
I think (on the homebrew level) they almost always mean "as a percentage
of the grain bill". I do, anyway.
Obviously, the exact amount of fermentables can vary depending on both
mash efficiency (with respect added sugars, anyway), as well as the
actual grain specs, but I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the
difference between two recipes with different grain specs. Sugar by
weight (esp. large amounts) might be an issue, but if you have an OG,
you should be able to adjust it accordingly.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 10:16:03
From: Spitzbuben
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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I can think of Four books were I have seen them talk about %grist;
Designing Great Beers, Brew Like a Monk, Farmhouse Ales and NEW Brewing
Lager Book.
When I have copied recipes from those books (granted some of these
books don't have straight "reciepes") I look at the %grist.
For example:
If you were making a Tripel and the ingredients were:
Pilsner 86.2%
Aromatic 1.7%
Wheat Malt 1.7%
Table Sugar 6.9%
Honey 3.4%
One way to do this is if you were making 10 gals you could just move
the decimal one place to the left and there you have your pounds of
malt (8.6lbs of pils, .17lbs of Aromatic....yada yada yada)
Hope this is at all what you were asking!
Spitz
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 09:45:48
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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MarkMc wrote:
> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
> that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
> does that mean?
>
> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
> gravity contribution.
>
When given in a recipe it's usually percent of ingredients by weight
unless stated otherwise.
In your statement above, however, I'd take it to mean gravity contribution.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 04:31:50
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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That's my point you hear people talk about making a recipe from 10%
sugar for example. What does that actually mean?
Cheers,
Mark
> If you mean % of grist it is the weight of the grain, if you mean % of
> fermentables it would mean % of sugar (gravity) contribution.
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 14:15:47
From: Joel
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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MarkMc <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>> If you mean % of grist it is the weight of the grain, if you mean % of
>> fermentables it would mean % of sugar (gravity) contribution.
>That's my point you hear people talk about making a recipe from 10%
>sugar for example. What does that actually mean?
IME, pro brewers generally talk about % of fermentable
sugars, while homebrewers generally talk about percentage
by weight of grain/adjuncts. But those are generalizations,
so you'd have to ask the source.
--
Joel Plutchak
"Things just fall apart." - Now They'll Sleep (Belly)
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 13:42:24
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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MarkMc <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> That's my point you hear people talk about making a recipe from 10%
> sugar for example. What does that actually mean?
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
I have always assumed that means percentage of gravity contribution. I
have never treated a percentage as a fraction of total mass of grain,
ever.
>> If you mean % of grist it is the weight of the grain, if you mean % of
>> fermentables it would mean % of sugar (gravity) contribution.
>
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 06:15:27
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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On 10 Nov 2006 04:31:50 -0800, <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> That's my point you hear people talk about making a recipe from 10%
> sugar for example. What does that actually mean?
From what I've seen, it's usually weight they are talking about.
John.
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 04:16:12
From: Washu
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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MarkMc wrote:
> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
> that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
> does that mean?
>
> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
> gravity contribution.
>
> What's usual?
>
> cheers,
> Mark
If you mean % of grist it is the weight of the grain, if you mean % of
fermentables it would mean % of sugar (gravity) contribution.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 06:14:55
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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On 10 Nov 2006 03:23:01 -0800, <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
> that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
> does that mean?
>
> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
> gravity contribution.
>
> What's usual?
Generally it's by weight. The author could have meant just about anything
though, who knows.
John.
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 10:43:56
From: Mike A.
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
> Unfortunately, people usually seem to mean percentage by weight. This
> has the distinct disadvantage that the sugar composition of the final
> wort will be dependent on mash efficiency.
But, this will always be the case. A recipe that lists ingredients by
% weight should always give an OG so this shouldn't be a problem.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 10:32:59
From:
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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When there are sugars involved, the difference can be significant.
Example: Suppose you're brewing a beer with only base malt (extract =
38) and sucrose (extract = 46), and assume 75% mash efficiency. Let's
say we're shooting for OG=1.080 and want to use 20% sugar (beglian
golden ale, anyone?). Normallly this is interpreted as "by weight", in
which case you'd have 10 # malt and 2.5 # sugar. If instead we
interpret this as "by contribution to OG", you get
1.74 # sugar and 11.2 # malt. This is just 13.4% by weight.
The difference gets more pronounced the less efficient you mash and
lautering setup is. However, assuming 100% efficiency, 20% sugar by
gravity is still only about 17% by weight).
-Nick
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> John Bleichert wrote:
> > naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
> >> Unfortunately, people usually seem to mean percentage by weight. This
> >> has the distinct disadvantage that the sugar composition of the final
> >> wort will be dependent on mash efficiency.
> > <snip>
> >
> > It seems to me that using a "percentage of weight" will work iff all
> > the grains involved provide the same amount of GU per pound of
> > grain. We know this isn't the case, so I don't see how this could work
> > consistently, though I suppose it's all in how one lays out one's
> > recipes.
> >
> > If someone suggests "using rye at 10% of the grain bill" I see that as
> > rye contributing to 10% of the OG. Am I just picking nits? I have a
> > coupla recipes to write up tonight, I'm going to try this on paper.
> >
>
> I think (on the homebrew level) they almost always mean "as a percentage
> of the grain bill". I do, anyway.
>
> Obviously, the exact amount of fermentables can vary depending on both
> mash efficiency (with respect added sugars, anyway), as well as the
> actual grain specs, but I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the
> difference between two recipes with different grain specs. Sugar by
> weight (esp. large amounts) might be an issue, but if you have an OG,
> you should be able to adjust it accordingly.
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 08:58:11
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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naramsey@umich.edu wrote:
> When there are sugars involved, the difference can be significant.
>
> Example: Suppose you're brewing a beer with only base malt (extract =
> 38) and sucrose (extract = 46), and assume 75% mash efficiency. Let's
> say we're shooting for OG=1.080 and want to use 20% sugar (beglian
> golden ale, anyone?). Normallly this is interpreted as "by weight", in
> which case you'd have 10 # malt and 2.5 # sugar. If instead we
> interpret this as "by contribution to OG", you get
> 1.74 # sugar and 11.2 # malt. This is just 13.4% by weight.
>
> The difference gets more pronounced the less efficient you mash and
> lautering setup is. However, assuming 100% efficiency, 20% sugar by
> gravity is still only about 17% by weight).
>
Sure -- but provided the recipe included a target OG, you should be
fine, even for large amounts of sugar since you can pretty much infer
efficiency, and thus grain contribution to fermentables.
It's worth bearing in mind though, especially for, those recipes that
call for lots of sugar. If no OG or efficiency assumptions are stated
you're going to be in for some guesswork.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 04:16:02
From:
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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MarkMc wrote:
> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody says
> that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn sugar, what
> does that mean?
>
> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be 10% by
> gravity contribution.
>
> What's usual?
>
> cheers,
> Mark
Yep, I agree with the group on this one, it's the
percentage of weight of the total grain bill. Generally this is the
case in most of the text I've looked over. Gravity contributions file
in second.
Steve
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Date: 19 Nov 2006 20:05:07
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: What does % mean in grist composition?
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smhoneydo@aol.com <smhoneydo@aol.com >:
>MarkMc wrote:
>> This may seem like an obvious newb question, but when somebody
>> says that the fermentables of a beer is made up from 10% corn
>> sugar, what does that mean?
>>
>> It could mean 10% of all ingredients by weight, or it could be
>> 10% by gravity contribution.
>>
> Yep, I agree with the group on this one, it's the
>percentage of weight of the total grain bill. Generally this is
>the case in most of the text I've looked over. Gravity
>contributions file in second.
Just catching up around here. If I'm not mistaken, Ray Daniels
uses the precentage of fermentables, in terms of gravity points,
in his chapter on formulating grain bills in Designing Great
Beers -- a source that is often cited here.
This is where I learned, and is the way I make and record my own
recipes. Not that either way is better than the other -- each
would be consistent within it's own practise. As others have
noted, confusion between the two meanings could make a
significant difference in the actual grainbill.
It seems like in recipes offered in terms of percentages, it
should also be recorded whether that means bulk weight, or
gravity points.
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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