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Main
Date: 11 Sep 2006 21:00:07
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Wetting grain before milling
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First off, I'M NOT REFERRING TO WET MILLING RIGHT BEFORE THE CRUSH, OR
"PUMPING" GRAIN INTO THE MILL.
I remember reading somewhere about lightly misting your grain prior to
milling. I believe the amount of water was about 1 or 2% of the grains, by
weight.
Does anyone remember reading about this?
The reason I'm asking is that, due to an air conditioning failure over the
Labor Day Weekend (I live in HOUSTON, Humidity City, USA), I ended up
storing some uncrushed grains in a freezer (I normally just keep them at
room temp), so that I didn't have to worry about any humidity, mold, or
pests infesting the grain.
I took the grains out and milled them immediately, and noticed that the
crush seemed to go a lot smoother than normal. I had not adjusted my mill,
and wash crushing barley, not wheat, so my kernel size was probably the same
as the last time I milled. The crush itself looked normal, and there were
no signs of moisture on the mill, nor was any grain dust sticking to any
surfaces.
I have two theories. One, is that the grain crushed easier, due to being
more brittle at freezer temps.
Two, the husks may have absorbed some humidity while in the freezer, and
thus were an easier crush.
If I remember the article correctly, the husks tended to stay whole or
remain in larger pieces if they had been exposed to this minimal amount of
water.
Does anyone remember seeing that article?
TIA,
Brian Bartz
Got a tax question? Go ahead and ask! Brian K. Bartz (nasacpa@verizon.net)
CPA Brian K. Bartz, CPA, PC 18065 Upper Bay Rd. Ste. 230 Nassau Bay, TX
77058 nasacpa@verizon.net tel: fax: mobile: (281) 335-1823 (281) 333-4947
(281) 435-8757 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this?
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:05:33
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
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So...nobody remembers seeing the article I'm referring to?
"Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:r7kNg.2235$Rw2.1993@trnddc02...
> First off, I'M NOT REFERRING TO WET MILLING RIGHT BEFORE THE CRUSH, OR
> "PUMPING" GRAIN INTO THE MILL.
>
> I remember reading somewhere about lightly misting your grain prior to
> milling. I believe the amount of water was about 1 or 2% of the grains,
> by weight.
>
> Does anyone remember reading about this?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that, due to an air conditioning failure over the
> Labor Day Weekend (I live in HOUSTON, Humidity City, USA), I ended up
> storing some uncrushed grains in a freezer (I normally just keep them at
> room temp), so that I didn't have to worry about any humidity, mold, or
> pests infesting the grain.
>
> I took the grains out and milled them immediately, and noticed that the
> crush seemed to go a lot smoother than normal. I had not adjusted my
> mill, and wash crushing barley, not wheat, so my kernel size was probably
> the same as the last time I milled. The crush itself looked normal, and
> there were no signs of moisture on the mill, nor was any grain dust
> sticking to any surfaces.
>
> I have two theories. One, is that the grain crushed easier, due to being
> more brittle at freezer temps.
>
> Two, the husks may have absorbed some humidity while in the freezer, and
> thus were an easier crush.
>
> If I remember the article correctly, the husks tended to stay whole or
> remain in larger pieces if they had been exposed to this minimal amount of
> water.
>
> Does anyone remember seeing that article?
>
> TIA,
>
> Brian Bartz
>
>
> Got a tax question? Go ahead and ask! Brian K. Bartz (nasacpa@verizon.net)
> CPA Brian K. Bartz, CPA, PC 18065 Upper Bay Rd. Ste. 230 Nassau Bay, TX
> 77058 nasacpa@verizon.net tel: fax: mobile: (281) 335-1823 (281) 333-4947
> (281) 435-8757 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this?
>
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Date: 13 Sep 2006 01:49:21
From: Chris Mikkelson
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
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In article <N8zNg.2739$Rw2.251@trnddc02 >,
Brian Bartz <nasacpa@verizon.net > wrote:
>So...nobody remembers seeing the article I'm referring to?
Search HBD for "Tempering grain" -- Similar concept, at least...
--
Chris Mikkelson
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 06:35:29
From: Shane Boyd
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
> Your first theory has some merit. Being colder could easily allow them
> to crush easier.
>
> I have some trouble with your second theory. The freezer air has near
> zero humidity, so the grain would actually dry out in the freezer, not
> absorb water.
>
> A third theory is that, upon exposing the cold grain to the humid gulf
> air, some water condensed on it, perhaps as if you had misted the grain
> with a spray bottle?
>
> ab
I am going to have to agree with you, ab. the third theory sits with
me the best; pulling grains out of the freezer have the same result as
having a cold bathroom mirror steam up... It is likely that this
condensed moisture resulted in the grain dust being kept to a minimum.
The cold-grains-being-brittle theory could also have contributed, but
would have less of an effect unless the grains were taken directly from
freezer to mill. Plus, has anyone noticed that brittle things usually
break into more pieces than ductile things do? (compare a dropped
coffee mug to a dropped piece of play-doh)
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 06:27:00
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
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Brian Bartz wrote:
<snip > ... due to an air conditioning failure over the
> Labor Day Weekend (I live in HOUSTON, Humidity City, USA), I ended up
> storing some uncrushed grains in a freezer (I normally just keep them at
> room temp), so that I didn't have to worry about any humidity, mold, or
> pests infesting the grain.
>
> I took the grains out and milled them immediately, and noticed that the
> crush seemed to go a lot smoother than normal. I had not adjusted my mill,
> and wash crushing barley, not wheat, so my kernel size was probably the same
> as the last time I milled. The crush itself looked normal, and there were
> no signs of moisture on the mill, nor was any grain dust sticking to any
> surfaces.
>
> I have two theories. One, is that the grain crushed easier, due to being
> more brittle at freezer temps.
>
> Two, the husks may have absorbed some humidity while in the freezer, and
> thus were an easier crush.
>
> If I remember the article correctly, the husks tended to stay whole or
> remain in larger pieces if they had been exposed to this minimal amount of
> water.
>
> Does anyone remember seeing that article?
>
> TIA,
>
> Brian Bartz
Your first theory has some merit. Being colder could easily allow them
to crush easier.
I have some trouble with your second theory. The freezer air has near
zero humidity, so the grain would actually dry out in the freezer, not
absorb water.
A third theory is that, upon exposing the cold grain to the humid gulf
air, some water condensed on it, perhaps as if you had misted the grain
with a spray bottle?
ab
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:03:20
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge are
actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
during a shower.
I'd already thought of condensation, but the grains were not exposed to the
air enough before crushing so that condensation could sink into the husks.
"alebrewer" <alebrewer@wt.net > wrote in message
news:1158067620.501474.224070@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Brian Bartz wrote:
> <snip> ... due to an air conditioning failure over the
>> Labor Day Weekend (I live in HOUSTON, Humidity City, USA), I ended up
>> storing some uncrushed grains in a freezer (I normally just keep them at
>> room temp), so that I didn't have to worry about any humidity, mold, or
>> pests infesting the grain.
>>
>> I took the grains out and milled them immediately, and noticed that the
>> crush seemed to go a lot smoother than normal. I had not adjusted my
>> mill,
>> and wash crushing barley, not wheat, so my kernel size was probably the
>> same
>> as the last time I milled. The crush itself looked normal, and there
>> were
>> no signs of moisture on the mill, nor was any grain dust sticking to any
>> surfaces.
>>
>> I have two theories. One, is that the grain crushed easier, due to being
>> more brittle at freezer temps.
>>
>> Two, the husks may have absorbed some humidity while in the freezer, and
>> thus were an easier crush.
>>
>> If I remember the article correctly, the husks tended to stay whole or
>> remain in larger pieces if they had been exposed to this minimal amount
>> of
>> water.
>>
>> Does anyone remember seeing that article?
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> Brian Bartz
>
> Your first theory has some merit. Being colder could easily allow them
> to crush easier.
>
> I have some trouble with your second theory. The freezer air has near
> zero humidity, so the grain would actually dry out in the freezer, not
> absorb water.
>
> A third theory is that, upon exposing the cold grain to the humid gulf
> air, some water condensed on it, perhaps as if you had misted the grain
> with a spray bottle?
>
> ab
>
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 11:13:51
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
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"Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:I6zNg.2738$Rw2.1144@trnddc02...
> According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge are
> actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
> during a shower.
Having been the A/C guy onboard ship responsible for large walk-in freezers
and coolers I'd have to take issue with Alton on that one. If your
constantly in and out and adding new items you can keep the humidity levels
up but cold will dry things out over time. That's part of what a freezer
burn is if you leave something in there too long.
> I'd already thought of condensation, but the grains were not exposed to
the
> air enough before crushing so that condensation could sink into the husks.
It wouldn't need to sink in, just be damp enough to hold down the dust. Do
you normally crush the grains inside in the A/C? Could the mill have been a
little warmer this time and you got a slightly finer crush (measured in
10,000's of an inch)?
You could always run a test. In one session run X pounds of grain straight
from the freezer through the mill followed by the same number of pounds of
normally stored grain through at the same setting and make you observations.
Mark R
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 16:42:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:13:51 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net > wrote:
>
> "Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:I6zNg.2738$Rw2.1144@trnddc02...
>> According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge are
>> actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
>> during a shower.
>
> Having been the A/C guy onboard ship responsible for large walk-in freezers
> and coolers I'd have to take issue with Alton on that one. If your
> constantly in and out and adding new items you can keep the humidity levels
> up but cold will dry things out over time. That's part of what a freezer
> burn is if you leave something in there too long.
It probably depends on how often you're opening the fridge/freezer relative
to it's size. I think the principle is that the humid outside air will
create condensation on the inside of the fridge/freezer. It's probably
more of an issue with home kitchen sized equipment that gets opened often
rather than a commercial walk in freezer. You probably were not getting
enough air flow into the walk in freezer each time you opened the door
to make a difference.
John.
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Date: 13 Sep 2006 10:22:29
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
> > "Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:I6zNg.2738$Rw2.1144@trnddc02...
> >> According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge
are
> >> actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
> >> during a shower.
<SNIP >
> You probably were not getting
> enough air flow into the walk in freezer each time you opened the door
> to make a difference.
>
> John.
The cooks were only in there a couple times a day at most. They'd grab what
they needed for the days meals and move it to the galley fridge and freezer.
All relative humidity aside, if you store your grain in the bathroom it's
going to get damp. If you store your grain in the freezer, it stays dry.
<shrug >
Mark R
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 13:58:56
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
alebrewer <alebrewer@wt.net > wrote:
>Brian Bartz wrote:
>> I took the grains out and milled them immediately, and noticed that the
>> crush seemed to go a lot smoother than normal. I had not adjusted my mill,
>> and wash crushing barley, not wheat, so my kernel size was probably the same
>> as the last time I milled. The crush itself looked normal, and there were
>> no signs of moisture on the mill, nor was any grain dust sticking to any
>> surfaces.
>>
>> I have two theories. One, is that the grain crushed easier, due to being
>> more brittle at freezer temps.
>>
>> Two, the husks may have absorbed some humidity while in the freezer, and
>> thus were an easier crush.
>Your first theory has some merit. Being colder could easily allow them
>to crush easier.
To a point, yes. However, I once tried to mill some
barley that just came out of a -20C freezer. We had to
mill it twice to get it to crush well. The same barley
from the same freezer crushes/crushed fine when allowed
to warm up.
>A third theory is that, upon exposing the cold grain to the humid gulf
>air, some water condensed on it, perhaps as if you had misted the grain
>with a spray bottle?
That would be my guess. It doesn't take much time at
all for condensation to form on very cold surfaces given
some humidity.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 19:00:19
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
John Krehbiel wrote:
> Relative humidity is the amount of moisture the air holds compared to
> what it could hold at that temperature. Colder air does not hold much
> moisture, so it doesn't take much to saturate it (relative humidity at
> saturation is 100%).
>
> When air is cooled, it can no longer hold as much moisture as it could
> when it was warm. When the moisture begins to condense, you have
> reached the dewpoint temperature, and dew or frost forms, depending on
> the temperature.
>
> If there is frost in the freezer, then the temperature is lower than
> the dewpoint temperature and the air is saturated. The defrost cycle
> temporarily raises the temperature in the freezer so frost can melt.
> (That is why frozen yeast will not survive well in a freezer with a
> defrost cycle.) It does not somehow remove moisture from the air in the
> freezer.
>
> I am a science teacher, and I teach Earth science. If you don't want to
> take my word for it, check out these sites:
>
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html
>
> http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/rh.rxml
It's not that I don't want to take your word for it, but it would seem
that you don't undersatnd how the Frost Free Freezer works. Unlike a
traditional freezer (where the cooling coils are in the shelves) or a
chest freezer (where the cooling coils are in the walls), in a frost
free freezer, the cooling coils are in a air box that has a fan blowing
the freezer air over the coils. The coils are much colder than the
freezer temp (and below the dew point), so the moisture level in the
freezer air is dropped to the dew point that matches the temperature of
the cooling coils. If the dew point of the air in the freezer is above
the temperature of the coils, it will form fost on the coils, removing
the mositure from the air. During the defrost cycle, heated air is
blown across the coils to melt the water and let it drain out into a
pan outside the freezer (usually underneath) to evaporate. So, yes,
during the defrost cycle, moisture is removed from the freezer.
That is, the dew point in the freezer matches the temperature of the
cooling coils (which has to be below the ambient temperature of the
freezer for the freezer to work). So, the humidity inside the freezer
is not 100% RH. Since the air is not saturated with water vapor, but
the temperature is below 0C, Ice inside the freezer will sublime, which
some may consider magicly removing moisture, but if you understand the
science, it isn't magic at all.
ab
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Date: 13 Sep 2006 19:07:45
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
I'm still thinking that the freezer, in this particular situation, was on
the humid side. Basically, because the paper bag that the grains were kept
in was no longer..."crisp"...the paper didn't crackle, indicating to me that
it had absorbed some moisture.
The grains were in the freezer overnight, since our A/C went out, and we had
to leave the house open to get air...didn't want any mice coming in and
munching on grain. All told, they were there probably around 20 hours max.
I do not run the mill in the house...too much dust! As there was no A/C for
the mill to be stored in (in this instance), the mill was at ambient temp.
The grains were probably around 20 degrees or so.
I'm still thinking that the dry husks would have absorbed moisture in the
freezer. I just don't think that there was enough time for any condensation
to be absorbed by the husks. Also, as I said earlier, there was no
indication of surface condensation on the mill rollers, or any darkening of
the flour (from moisture). Nor was there any stickiness in the grain
feeder, which would have been the case with surface condensation. As I'd
set up the mill prior to getting the grains out, they went from freezer to
roller in under 5 minutes total.
"alebrewer" <alebrewer@wt.net > wrote in message
news:1158112819.738730.99010@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> John Krehbiel wrote:
>> Relative humidity is the amount of moisture the air holds compared to
>> what it could hold at that temperature. Colder air does not hold much
>> moisture, so it doesn't take much to saturate it (relative humidity at
>> saturation is 100%).
>>
>> When air is cooled, it can no longer hold as much moisture as it could
>> when it was warm. When the moisture begins to condense, you have
>> reached the dewpoint temperature, and dew or frost forms, depending on
>> the temperature.
>>
>> If there is frost in the freezer, then the temperature is lower than
>> the dewpoint temperature and the air is saturated. The defrost cycle
>> temporarily raises the temperature in the freezer so frost can melt.
>> (That is why frozen yeast will not survive well in a freezer with a
>> defrost cycle.) It does not somehow remove moisture from the air in the
>> freezer.
>>
>> I am a science teacher, and I teach Earth science. If you don't want to
>> take my word for it, check out these sites:
>>
>> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html
>>
>> http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/rh.rxml
>
> It's not that I don't want to take your word for it, but it would seem
> that you don't undersatnd how the Frost Free Freezer works. Unlike a
> traditional freezer (where the cooling coils are in the shelves) or a
> chest freezer (where the cooling coils are in the walls), in a frost
> free freezer, the cooling coils are in a air box that has a fan blowing
> the freezer air over the coils. The coils are much colder than the
> freezer temp (and below the dew point), so the moisture level in the
> freezer air is dropped to the dew point that matches the temperature of
> the cooling coils. If the dew point of the air in the freezer is above
> the temperature of the coils, it will form fost on the coils, removing
> the mositure from the air. During the defrost cycle, heated air is
> blown across the coils to melt the water and let it drain out into a
> pan outside the freezer (usually underneath) to evaporate. So, yes,
> during the defrost cycle, moisture is removed from the freezer.
>
> That is, the dew point in the freezer matches the temperature of the
> cooling coils (which has to be below the ambient temperature of the
> freezer for the freezer to work). So, the humidity inside the freezer
> is not 100% RH. Since the air is not saturated with water vapor, but
> the temperature is below 0C, Ice inside the freezer will sublime, which
> some may consider magicly removing moisture, but if you understand the
> science, it isn't magic at all.
>
> ab
>
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 17:58:24
From: John Krehbiel
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
Relative humidity is the amount of moisture the air holds compared to
what it could hold at that temperature. Colder air does not hold much
moisture, so it doesn't take much to saturate it (relative humidity at
saturation is 100%).
When air is cooled, it can no longer hold as much moisture as it could
when it was warm. When the moisture begins to condense, you have
reached the dewpoint temperature, and dew or frost forms, depending on
the temperature.
If there is frost in the freezer, then the temperature is lower than
the dewpoint temperature and the air is saturated. The defrost cycle
temporarily raises the temperature in the freezer so frost can melt.
(That is why frozen yeast will not survive well in a freezer with a
defrost cycle.) It does not somehow remove moisture from the air in the
freezer.
I am a science teacher, and I teach Earth science. If you don't want to
take my word for it, check out these sites:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/rh.rxml
|
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 12:46:09
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
John Krehbiel wrote:
> Mark R wrote:
> > "Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:I6zNg.2738$Rw2.1144@trnddc02...
> > > According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge are
> > > actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
> > > during a shower.
> >
> > Having been the A/C guy onboard ship responsible for large walk-in freezers
> > and coolers I'd have to take issue with Alton on that one. If your
> > constantly in and out and adding new items you can keep the humidity levels
> > up but cold will dry things out over time. That's part of what a freezer
> > burn is if you leave something in there too long.
> >
> >snip>
>
> > Mark R
>
> Much as I hate to defend Alton Brown, he's right if you're talking
> about _relative_ humidity. The amount of moisture in the air in a
> freezer isn't much, but it won't hold much either. Compared to what it
> can hold, it's most likely saturated. That doesn't mean its wet in
> absolute terms, and if you warmed it up it would feel very dry, which
> is why inside air is always so dry in the winter time.
I still disagree. Assuming that BB's freezer is a frost-free freezer
(a safe assumption knowing he's living in Houston), it goes through a
defrost cycle periodically that removes any moisture that might get in.
Unless the door gasket is leaking (in which case, if it isn't
replaced, the freezer will fail within a year), the humidity is as near
zero inside as you can get. Items will get wet when the door opens due
to condensation (maybe that is what Alton Brown means), but they will
dry out again soon once the door is closed. Anything left uncovered
will dry out.
ab
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 12:04:33
From: John Krehbiel
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
Mark R wrote:
> "Brian Bartz" <nasacpa@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:I6zNg.2738$Rw2.1144@trnddc02...
> > According to Alton Brown, chef on Good Eats, your freezer and fridge are
> > actually the most humid places in your home...right after your bathroom
> > during a shower.
>
> Having been the A/C guy onboard ship responsible for large walk-in freezers
> and coolers I'd have to take issue with Alton on that one. If your
> constantly in and out and adding new items you can keep the humidity levels
> up but cold will dry things out over time. That's part of what a freezer
> burn is if you leave something in there too long.
>
>snip>
> Mark R
Much as I hate to defend Alton Brown, he's right if you're talking
about _relative_ humidity. The amount of moisture in the air in a
freezer isn't much, but it won't hold much either. Compared to what it
can hold, it's most likely saturated. That doesn't mean its wet in
absolute terms, and if you warmed it up it would feel very dry, which
is why inside air is always so dry in the winter time.
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Date: 14 Sep 2006 16:20:50
From: John Krehbiel
Subject: Re: Wetting grain before milling
|
> Since the air is not saturated with water vapor, but
> the temperature is below 0C, Ice inside the freezer will sublime, which
> some may consider magicly removing moisture, but if you understand the
> science, it isn't magic at all.
>
> ab
That's pretty cool. (no pun intended) You're right, I didn't know that.
In that style freezer, it should be quite dry, in relative as well as
absolute terms.
Thanks for the info.
John
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