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Main
Date: 10 Aug 2006 19:06:49
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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So, I was wondering if this was a crazy idea or not, but I found a
recipe for an apple cider reduction - 1 gallon is gently boiled down to
1 quart.
Could this be used to sweeten an apple cider during fermentation,
instead of sugar?
I read that heating apple cider can activate the pectins, and the last
thing I want to do is turn my hard cider into hard cider jelly.
Anyway, wondering if anyone knows of any drawbacks or has any advice
they can offer.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 21:21:46
From: Droopy
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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The cider will most likely have a "cooked" taste to it.
And you are right you may create a pectic haze, but you can clear that
with pectic enzyme or gelatin fining.
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> So, I was wondering if this was a crazy idea or not, but I found a
> recipe for an apple cider reduction - 1 gallon is gently boiled down to
> 1 quart.
>
> Could this be used to sweeten an apple cider during fermentation,
> instead of sugar?
>
> I read that heating apple cider can activate the pectins, and the last
> thing I want to do is turn my hard cider into hard cider jelly.
>
> Anyway, wondering if anyone knows of any drawbacks or has any advice
> they can offer.
>
> Cathy Weeks
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 06:22:42
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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"Droopy" <Droopy68516@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1155270094.113577.318490@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> The cider will most likely have a "cooked" taste to it.
>
> And you are right you may create a pectic haze, but you can clear that
> with pectic enzyme or gelatin fining.
>
>
It will also turn hard cider into soft cider
Steve W
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:20:01
From: JS
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:22:42 GMT, "Steve/Aus"
<adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>
>"Droopy" <Droopy68516@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1155270094.113577.318490@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> The cider will most likely have a "cooked" taste to it.
>>
>> And you are right you may create a pectic haze, but you can clear that
>> with pectic enzyme or gelatin fining.
>>
>>
>It will also turn hard cider into soft cider
>Steve W
>
Wouldn't this just add more fermentables to the cider? Or would
reducing as described caramelise the sugars so that wouldn't be an
issue?
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------- >>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 00:34:42
From: TechnoShroom
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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I believe he meant if you start with hard cider you'll end up cooking
off the alcohol.
"JS" <jayceeessfouratfrontiernetdotnet > wrote in message
news:p0mpd2t2nhba8t63svfugtuivck9i09i89@4ax.com...
> Wouldn't this just add more fermentables to the cider? Or would
> reducing as described caramelise the sugars so that wouldn't be an
> issue?
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:45:22
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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"Cathy Weeks" <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net > wrote in message
news:1155262009.174094.253200@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> So, I was wondering if this was a crazy idea or not, but I found a
> recipe for an apple cider reduction - 1 gallon is gently boiled down to
> 1 quart.
>
> Could this be used to sweeten an apple cider during fermentation,
> instead of sugar?
>
> I read that heating apple cider can activate the pectins, and the last
> thing I want to do is turn my hard cider into hard cider jelly.
>
> Anyway, wondering if anyone knows of any drawbacks or has any advice
> they can offer.
I've used apple juice concentrate from the grocery store freezer section
for this purpose.
Bob
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 17:44:32
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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TechnoShroom wrote:
> I believe he meant if you start with hard cider you'll end up cooking
> off the alcohol.
Ok. I did wonder what he meant.
What *I* meant, was to make an apple cider reduction (AKA Boiled Cider)
using sweet/soft/non-alcoholic apple juice and using *that* to sweeten
the would-be hard-cider.
I could use it either before, or after fermentation, as a sweetening
agent.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:32:05
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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Larry Bristol wrote:
> To retain some unfermented sugar after fermentation is complete to increase
> the sweetness is somewhat problematical. What you need is sugar that your
> yeast will not ferment. Boiling some juice down as you described will most
> likely caramelize some of the sugars, making them unfermentable, which may
> give you the desired results. I don't know... I've never tried this. It
> may also change the apple flavors in a way that is not acceptable to you.
As TJ said, experimentation is a lot of fun. It's definitely worth a
try. :-) The worst that will happen is that I will have wasted a
1-gallon batch.
> > I racked off my first batch to a secondary last night, and I sniffed
> > the lees that were left in the jug, and was struck by how much it
> > smelled like wine.
>
> Can you define the word "cidery"? <snicker>
Hmmmm... no, I can't! The most I can call to mind is either apple
cider vinegar, or sweet cider. I was just surprised because it smelled
exactly like a white wine.
> I think cider made with pure apple juice is quite dry, not sweet. Adding
> fermentable sugars would make it more so. I suppose I should point out
> that your choice of yeast will have a big impact on attenuation (how much
> residual sugar remains)! Wine type yeasts will most likely ferment more
> completely. You should check into those yeasts specially "designed" for
> cider.
I've got about 9 different yeasts - some are for wine, a few are for
ale. I was JUST at my LHBS yesterday, and I didn't realize that they
had two different kinds of cider yeasts!! (grr... it's 30 miles away,
and with the cost of gas these days, it's probably cheaper to order
it). I'm just working my way through 1-gallon batches to see which
yeasts I like and which I don't.
Thanks for all the advice.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 07:12:18
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> As TJ said, experimentation is a lot of fun. It's definitely worth a
> try. :-) The worst that will happen is that I will have wasted a
> 1-gallon batch.
I would very much like to hear the results of your experiments. I make
sparkling cider from time to time, and I suspect you are going to learn
some things that would allow me to make vast improvements!
>> Can you define the word "cidery"? <snicker>
>
> Hmmmm... no, I can't! The most I can call to mind is either apple
> cider vinegar, or sweet cider. I was just surprised because it smelled
> exactly like a white wine.
I have recently learned that there does not seem to be a definition for it.
Perhaps "the flavor and smell associated with white wine" is a start, but
that still isn't very definitive. There are too many types of white wine,
anyway. I'll keep working on it. So far, my best definition is, "a taste
that is almost, but not quite, completely unlike an apple."
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:25:16
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
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T.J. Higgins wrote:
> In article <1155326894.083030.310880@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Cathy Weeks wrote:
> >I want my cider first and formost to taste like it came from *apples*.
>
> I thought the same thing for a long time, but have finally
> got it through my thick skull that proper hard cider does
> not taste like apples. Does wine taste like it came from
> grapes?
<LOL > Well, not the good stuff anyway. :-) I do like wine (there's
nothing quite like merlot, a pinot noir, a sauturnes, or a port), but I
don't like grapes, or <gag > grape juice. I don't even like grape jelly
that every child seems to love.
>Does Budweiser/Miller/Coors taste like it came from
> rice?
No, you are quite right, it doesn't. However, despite having tried for
years, I've never been able to develop a taste for beer (I leave that
to my husband, who loves it - the more unusual the better). I don't
count that bottle of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that I drank in a bar at
8000 feet elevation - it tasted delicious and got me more than a little
tipsy due to the elevation. I was quite disappointed years later when I
tried some again, and it just tasted like... beer. Sigh.
I do like apple cider both sweet and hard. I've liked just about every
hard cider or perry I've ever tried. Some have been sweet (perry
especially) but most *have* been relatively dry. It's been awhile
since I've had any, but I *thought* they tasted like apples. It's been
several years since I've had it, so I could be misremembering.
> Get some commercial cider from the store and see if
> it has any apple flavor.
I just might do that. :-)
> If you really must have apple flavor in your cider, the best
> way to accomplish it is to add a bit of apple juice or sweet
> cider to the hard cider at serving time. It's very difficult
> to get apple flavor from fermentation alone. I tried for
> years with little success.
>
> One way to do a natural fermentation using pasteurized cider
> is to get some fresh apples or crabapples, either from a tree,
> a farmer's market, or from the store, grind them up in your
> blender, and just toss them into the cider. The natural yeast
> and bacteria on the skin of the fresh fruit will ferment the
> cider. Try different kinds of fruit in different 1-gallon
> batches. I always found this sort of experimentation one of
> the most fun parts of cidermaking.
Great idea. I just bought a bag of gold crab apples to try making into
applesauce. I just might try it!
> The best source for cider info on the web is the Cider Digest
> at http://www.talisman.com/cider/
I've already bookmarked their site. Thanks!
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 13:08:14
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Cathy, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to increase the
> sugar level during fermentation to increase the alcohol content, trying to
> retain some unfermented sugar to increase the sweetness, or something else?
Yes to all of the above.
I racked off my first batch to a secondary last night, and I sniffed
the lees that were left in the jug, and was struck by how much it
smelled like wine.
I want my cider first and formost to taste like it came from *apples*.
I thought that by adding boiled cider (the official name of apple cider
reduction, which is reduced down to about 1/5 the original amount) as a
sweetening agent would create a more intensely flavored apple cider
I also thought that it would both add more fermentable sugars (thus
upping the alcohol content), as well as the non-fermentables that are
already present (retaining some sweetness).
I've been reading a LOT about cider in the last 10 days or so, and one
of things people said was that when you don't add any extra sugar, you
tended to wind up with a sweeter end product - and that adding sugar to
raise the alcohol content tended to dry the cider too much. I'm
assuming that's because not all of the sugars are fermentable.
My first batch was sweetened slightly prior to fermentation - 3
tablespoons of brown sugar to a gallon of cider. Used Cote de blancs
(?) yeast. My plan is to stablize it when fermentation is finished,
then add some sweetening agent. Could be boiled cider, or could be
sugar. I've made no decisions. It's to be a sweetened, still cider.
I've also read that using a cider yeast should help in keeping the
apple-y flavor, and I'm very interested in that. However, right now,
I'm just trying 1-gallon experimental batches, and the stuff available
to me is expensive and designed for bigger batches (5-10 gallons -
Wyeast makes the one at my LHBS). So I'm waiting til I gain some more
experience before trying that.
I'd love to try a naturally fermented cider, but, I've been unable to
find an unpasturized cider. So far, I'm lucky that I've found a
readily available source of pasturized--but unpreserved--cider. It's
not a wonderful sweet cider - a bit on the bland side - but it's pretty
good (and available!).
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 16:07:13
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Larry Bristol wrote:
>> Cathy, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to increase the
>> sugar level during fermentation to increase the alcohol content, trying
>> to retain some unfermented sugar to increase the sweetness, or something
>> else?
>
> Yes to all of the above.
OK, I am certainly no cider expert, but I have made a few batches, so I'll
throw some stuff at you and hopefully some others will fill in the gaps.
Pure 100% apple juice is almost totally fermentable. It would start with an
OG around 1.052, ending at (or very near) 1.000, and be very dry. Ordinary
sugar is also almost totally fermentable. Adding sugar is the tried and
true means of raising the alcohol content of the finished cider. It will
raise the OG, but not the FG. You get more alcohol but no more flavor.
To retain some unfermented sugar after fermentation is complete to increase
the sweetness is somewhat problematical. What you need is sugar that your
yeast will not ferment. Boiling some juice down as you described will most
likely caramelize some of the sugars, making them unfermentable, which may
give you the desired results. I don't know... I've never tried this. It
may also change the apple flavors in a way that is not acceptable to you.
I should have asked you whether you want to make still or sparkling cider,
and if sparkling, whether you plan to bottle or keg it. The following
technique will work for still cider, or for cider that is force carbonated
(in a keg); it will *not* work for bottled sparkling cider.
First, create your hard cider by allowing the juice to ferment completely.
Then, stabilize the hard cider by adding potassium sorbate. This is
frequently used by wine makers as a "stabilizer". It inhibits fermentation
from restarting, although it will not stop an active one. [This is the
reason that you cannot make a bottled sparkling cider in this manner. It
would never carbonate!] Add fresh, unfermented apple juice to the hard
cider to achieve the level of sweetness and apple flavor you want!
> I racked off my first batch to a secondary last night, and I sniffed
> the lees that were left in the jug, and was struck by how much it
> smelled like wine.
Can you define the word "cidery"? <snicker >
> I want my cider first and formost to taste like it came from *apples*.
> I thought that by adding boiled cider (the official name of apple cider
> reduction, which is reduced down to about 1/5 the original amount) as a
> sweetening agent would create a more intensely flavored apple cider
Don't know.
> I also thought that it would both add more fermentable sugars (thus
> upping the alcohol content), as well as the non-fermentables that are
> already present (retaining some sweetness).
I would expect it to.
> I've been reading a LOT about cider in the last 10 days or so, and one
> of things people said was that when you don't add any extra sugar, you
> tended to wind up with a sweeter end product - and that adding sugar to
> raise the alcohol content tended to dry the cider too much. I'm
> assuming that's because not all of the sugars are fermentable.
I think cider made with pure apple juice is quite dry, not sweet. Adding
fermentable sugars would make it more so. I suppose I should point out
that your choice of yeast will have a big impact on attenuation (how much
residual sugar remains)! Wine type yeasts will most likely ferment more
completely. You should check into those yeasts specially "designed" for
cider.
HTH!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 21:01:27
From: T.J. Higgins
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
In article <1155326894.083030.310880@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >, Cathy Weeks wrote:
>I want my cider first and formost to taste like it came from *apples*.
I thought the same thing for a long time, but have finally
got it through my thick skull that proper hard cider does
not taste like apples. Does wine taste like it came from
grapes? Does Budweiser/Miller/Coors taste like it came from
rice? Get some commercial cider from the store and see if
it has any apple flavor.
If you really must have apple flavor in your cider, the best
way to accomplish it is to add a bit of apple juice or sweet
cider to the hard cider at serving time. It's very difficult
to get apple flavor from fermentation alone. I tried for
years with little success.
One way to do a natural fermentation using pasteurized cider
is to get some fresh apples or crabapples, either from a tree,
a farmer's market, or from the store, grind them up in your
blender, and just toss them into the cider. The natural yeast
and bacteria on the skin of the fresh fruit will ferment the
cider. Try different kinds of fruit in different 1-gallon
batches. I always found this sort of experimentation one of
the most fun parts of cidermaking.
The best source for cider info on the web is the Cider Digest
at http://www.talisman.com/cider/
Good luck!
--
TJH
tjhiggin.at.hiwaay.dot.net
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 12:53:12
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> So, I was wondering if this was a crazy idea or not, but I found a
> recipe for an apple cider reduction - 1 gallon is gently boiled down to
> 1 quart.
>
> Could this be used to sweeten an apple cider during fermentation,
> instead of sugar?
>
> I read that heating apple cider can activate the pectins, and the last
> thing I want to do is turn my hard cider into hard cider jelly.
Cathy, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to increase the
sugar level during fermentation to increase the alcohol content, trying to
retain some unfermented sugar to increase the sweetness, or something else?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 08:55:31
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Yes. <grin>
>
> I intend to try adding it to unfermented juice and then ferment it, or
> use it as a sweetening agent with fermented juice that's been
> stablized. Perhaps both.
I'd recommend adding it to already fermented cider. If you add it
before fermentation, all the "essences" you're trying to keep will get
blown out.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 07:26:27
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
>
> > I made the apple cider reduction (AKA "Boiled Cider") last night - 5.5
> > quarts of fresh, sweet apple cider boiled down to 1 quart. I merely
> > skimmed off the foam, and then when it was done, poured it through a
> > clean dishtowel into clean glass container. It's a very dark reddish
> > brown, and clear. It's similar in color to coco-cola, though it's
> > clear, whereas coke isn't. It's a little more liquidy than I would
> > have thought it would be (more akin to real maple syrup than Aunt
> > Jemima's), but the taste is amazing! VERY concentrated apple taste,
> > very tangy sweet/sour. I suppose I could have cooked it down further
> > to make it thicker, but I didn't know at what point it would turn to
> > jelly, and the instructions said to only take it from 5 or 6 parts down
> > to 1 part. As it was, it took quite awhile - about 2 hours of constant
> > boiling.
>
> And you are going to take this and add it to what? Unfermented juice, or
> already fermented (hard) cider?
Yes. <grin >
I intend to try adding it to unfermented juice and then ferment it, or
use it as a sweetening agent with fermented juice that's been
stablized. Perhaps both.
I did find out that my idea is far from original, though. I've got 3
apple books (two are on cider making, and the third is an all-purpose
apple cookbook) and instructions for boiled cider is in all three.
After I got my idea, I found the following in the Proulx Cider book:
"Boiled Cider, which is used in many recipes, in apple butter,
applesauce, and mincemeat, is nothing more than concentrated cider.
This ancient and simple way of concentrating cider consists of boiling
down fresh cider in an open kettle until the juice is reduced to
one-fourth or one-fifth the original volume. Strong, dark drinking
ciders have been made by adding boiled cider to the fresh juice in the
barrel and fermenting the lot, but moder-day cidermakers may find this
concentrate more useful in the kitchen than in the cidery."
I originally decided to made it so I could use it to sweeten
applesauce.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 09:45:04
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Yes. <grin>
OK. Experimenting with both ideas and more, I take it. :-)
You're getting me interested in making a batch of cider and giving this a
try, especially the idea about adding it to the juice before fermentation.
I'm especially curious as to how much unfermentable sugar will result!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 06:36:14
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Bob wrote:
> "Cathy Weeks" <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net> wrote in message
> news:1155262009.174094.253200@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> I've used apple juice concentrate from the grocery store freezer section
> for this purpose.
Excellent! I'm really glad to know this. How did it turn out? How was
it different than just adding sugar?
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 09:51:53
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
"Cathy Weeks" <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net > wrote in message
news:1155389774.888126.136460@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bob wrote:
> > "Cathy Weeks" <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net> wrote in message
> > news:1155262009.174094.253200@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I've used apple juice concentrate from the grocery store freezer section
> > for this purpose.
>
> Excellent! I'm really glad to know this. How did it turn out? How was
> it different than just adding sugar?
>
I guess I haven't done an A-B comparison. They were both excellent. The most
juice concentrate I used was 2 or 3 cans in a 5 gallon batch. I've had excellent
results with up to 4 lbs of white or brown sugar in a 5 gallon batch, which is
probably a lot more sugar. I tried 8 lbs of sugar in a batch. This would not
ferment out far enough and ended up sickly sweet. I have been mixing it
50/50 with a "no sugar added" batch that ended up very dry. The result
is excellent.
It's hard to go too wrong with cider.
Bob
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 06:33:51
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
>
> > As TJ said, experimentation is a lot of fun. It's definitely worth a
> > try. :-) The worst that will happen is that I will have wasted a
> > 1-gallon batch.
>
> I would very much like to hear the results of your experiments. I make
> sparkling cider from time to time, and I suspect you are going to learn
> some things that would allow me to make vast improvements!
Sure. I'd be happy to.
I made the apple cider reduction (AKA "Boiled Cider") last night - 5.5
quarts of fresh, sweet apple cider boiled down to 1 quart. I merely
skimmed off the foam, and then when it was done, poured it through a
clean dishtowel into clean glass container. It's a very dark reddish
brown, and clear. It's similar in color to coco-cola, though it's
clear, whereas coke isn't. It's a little more liquidy than I would
have thought it would be (more akin to real maple syrup than Aunt
Jemima's), but the taste is amazing! VERY concentrated apple taste,
very tangy sweet/sour. I suppose I could have cooked it down further
to make it thicker, but I didn't know at what point it would turn to
jelly, and the instructions said to only take it from 5 or 6 parts down
to 1 part. As it was, it took quite awhile - about 2 hours of constant
boiling.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 09:00:59
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Using a cider reduction as a sweetening agent for hard cider?
|
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> I made the apple cider reduction (AKA "Boiled Cider") last night - 5.5
> quarts of fresh, sweet apple cider boiled down to 1 quart. I merely
> skimmed off the foam, and then when it was done, poured it through a
> clean dishtowel into clean glass container. It's a very dark reddish
> brown, and clear. It's similar in color to coco-cola, though it's
> clear, whereas coke isn't. It's a little more liquidy than I would
> have thought it would be (more akin to real maple syrup than Aunt
> Jemima's), but the taste is amazing! VERY concentrated apple taste,
> very tangy sweet/sour. I suppose I could have cooked it down further
> to make it thicker, but I didn't know at what point it would turn to
> jelly, and the instructions said to only take it from 5 or 6 parts down
> to 1 part. As it was, it took quite awhile - about 2 hours of constant
> boiling.
And you are going to take this and add it to what? Unfermented juice, or
already fermented (hard) cider?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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