Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification

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Date: 25 Jun 2006 22:49:26
From: Eric Scantlebury
Subject: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Hello all,

I am pondering purchasing some used equipment that someone is getting rid
of. One of the items is an aluminum CO2 tank and regulator. I specifically
asked when the tank was last certified as I understand you need
certification every five years or so. The tank has not been certified since
the original purchase back in 1993. Should I stand clear of this equipment
or is it fairly certain that the tank is probably ok and should be able to
be recertified? Also, do filling places even check?

I'm a newbie at the hobby and just don't want to be burned on some used
equipment.

Thanks,
Eric

Date: 25 Jun 2006 21:37:43
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Date: 25 Jun 2006 23:26:42
From: Brian
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
20lb tank certified it was $15.

"Eric Scantlebury" <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:WpEng.1310$H32.949@trndny06...
> Hello all,
>
> I am pondering purchasing some used equipment that someone is getting rid
> of. One of the items is an aluminum CO2 tank and regulator. I
> specifically asked when the tank was last certified as I understand you
> need certification every five years or so. The tank has not been
> certified since the original purchase back in 1993. Should I stand clear
> of this equipment or is it fairly certain that the tank is probably ok and
> should be able to be recertified? Also, do filling places even check?
>
> I'm a newbie at the hobby and just don't want to be burned on some used
> equipment.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
>

Date: 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Brian wrote:
> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
> 20lb tank certified it was $15.

What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
factors.

--
Daniel O. Miller

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein

WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17

Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 05:28:59
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

"Lefty Skywalker" <dmille15@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:449f3d95$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> Brian wrote:
>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had
>> my 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>
> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
> factors.
>
> --
> Daniel O. Miller
>
> "The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
> fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
> science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
> as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
>
> WWYD? (-o-) <*> Genesis 49:17
>
> Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.

They hydrotest it.
Involves filling the tank with water and lowering it into a well. The
displacement can be see on a displacement gauge quite precisely.
Then pressure is applied to the system to a point of over rated pressure.
The displacement is noted and the tank fails if the displacement is over
spec.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 23:25:20
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Tom Biasi wrote:
> "Lefty Skywalker" <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:449f3d95$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>> Brian wrote:
>>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had
>>> my 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
>> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
>> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
>> factors.
>>
>> --
>> Daniel O. Miller
>>
>> "The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
>> fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
>> science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
>> as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
>>
>> WWYD? (-o-) <*> Genesis 49:17
>>
>> Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.
>
> They hydrotest it.
> Involves filling the tank with water and lowering it into a well. The
> displacement can be see on a displacement gauge quite precisely.
> Then pressure is applied to the system to a point of over rated pressure.
> The displacement is noted and the tank fails if the displacement is over
> spec.

And thus they get to see if it's past its yield strength rather than
just ultimate stress that would be shown by a leak. Interesting!
Clever! Thank you.

--
Daniel O. Miller

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein

WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17

Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 17:43:13
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Brian wrote:
>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
>> 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>
> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
> factors.

My understanding is that they do a hydro test, IE they fill the tank with
water up to a certain pressure (usually much higher than the tank will see
with CO2). They use water because if the tank cracks, it won't explode
since the water doesn't compress under pressure. It'll basically just
go "pop" and then start to leak.

John.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 14:19:59
From: Phil
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On 26 Jun 2006 17:43:13 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Brian wrote:
>>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
>>> 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>>
>> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
>> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
>> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
>> factors.
>
>My understanding is that they do a hydro test, IE they fill the tank with
>water up to a certain pressure (usually much higher than the tank will see
>with CO2). They use water because if the tank cracks, it won't explode
>since the water doesn't compress under pressure. It'll basically just
>go "pop" and then start to leak.

Oh, they will explode....

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg

Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:27:58
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:19:59 -0400, <dogglebe@yahoooo.com > wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2006 17:43:13 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Brian wrote:
>>>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
>>>> 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>>>
>>> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
>>> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
>>> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
>>> factors.
>>
>>My understanding is that they do a hydro test, IE they fill the tank with
>>water up to a certain pressure (usually much higher than the tank will see
>>with CO2). They use water because if the tank cracks, it won't explode
>>since the water doesn't compress under pressure. It'll basically just
>>go "pop" and then start to leak.
>
> Oh, they will explode....

Not nearly as badly as if they had filled it with air or another compressable
gas though.

John.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:10:34
From: Phil
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On 26 Jun 2006 18:27:58 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:19:59 -0400, <dogglebe@yahoooo.com> wrote:
>> On 26 Jun 2006 17:43:13 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Brian wrote:
>>>>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
>>>>> 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>>>>
>>>> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
>>>> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
>>>> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
>>>> factors.
>>>
>>>My understanding is that they do a hydro test, IE they fill the tank with
>>>water up to a certain pressure (usually much higher than the tank will see
>>>with CO2). They use water because if the tank cracks, it won't explode
>>>since the water doesn't compress under pressure. It'll basically just
>>>go "pop" and then start to leak.
>>
>> Oh, they will explode....
>
>Not nearly as badly as if they had filled it with air or another compressable
>gas though.

They fill it with water and then submerge the tank in water (after
it's been capped) to minimize temperature change during the test. I
forgot how much pressure is used for the test, but when it fails and
explodes, it explodes.

It looks like a depth charge exploding.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg

Date: 26 Jun 2006 17:30:03
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

"Phil" <dogglebe@yahoooo.com > wrote in message
news:h9f0a21tk13utvq52lrkbgv1ngian4b8t1@4ax.com...
> On 26 Jun 2006 18:27:58 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
> They fill it with water and then submerge the tank in water (after
> it's been capped) to minimize temperature change during the test. I
> forgot how much pressure is used for the test, but when it fails and
> explodes, it explodes.
>
> It looks like a depth charge exploding.
>
>
> Phil
Have you ever seen a failure Phil?
I have seen many.
Sort of like poking a water balloon vs. a regular balloon.
Yes, a lot of bubbles surface, but this procedure is safe.
Most of the time the failure is excessive expansion.
Tom

Date: 27 Jun 2006 09:12:16
From: Phil
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:30:03 -0400, "Tom Biasi"
<tombiasi@********optonline.net > wrote:

>
>"Phil" <dogglebe@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
>news:h9f0a21tk13utvq52lrkbgv1ngian4b8t1@4ax.com...
>> On 26 Jun 2006 18:27:58 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> They fill it with water and then submerge the tank in water (after
>> it's been capped) to minimize temperature change during the test. I
>> forgot how much pressure is used for the test, but when it fails and
>> explodes, it explodes.
>>
>> It looks like a depth charge exploding.
>>
>>
>> Phil
>Have you ever seen a failure Phil?
>I have seen many.
>Sort of like poking a water balloon vs. a regular balloon.
>Yes, a lot of bubbles surface, but this procedure is safe.
>Most of the time the failure is excessive expansion.

I've seen many failures and I've seen one explode when I was in the
fire/safety field.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg

Date: 26 Jun 2006 23:40:02
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Tom Biasi wrote:
> "Phil" <dogglebe@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
> news:h9f0a21tk13utvq52lrkbgv1ngian4b8t1@4ax.com...
>> On 26 Jun 2006 18:27:58 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> They fill it with water and then submerge the tank in water (after
>> it's been capped) to minimize temperature change during the test. I
>> forgot how much pressure is used for the test, but when it fails and
>> explodes, it explodes.
>>
>> It looks like a depth charge exploding.
>>
>>
>> Phil
> Have you ever seen a failure Phil?
> I have seen many.
> Sort of like poking a water balloon vs. a regular balloon.
> Yes, a lot of bubbles surface, but this procedure is safe.
> Most of the time the failure is excessive expansion.
> Tom

I've seen a CF case fail, it just tore. I've seen a flanged steel pipe
fail too, it spat broken bolts all over just like in a submarine movie.
We do our proof testing in an armored room, and look in through a
periscope...

Even if the water is incompressible there is still a lot of energy tied
up in the case tension that has to go somewhere...

--
Daniel O. Miller

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein

WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17

Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 23:35:01
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:50 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Brian wrote:
>>> The date does matter and the filling places will check. Last time I had my
>>> 20lb tank certified it was $15.
>> What do they do? Run it up to some proof pressure? I design stuff
>> including pressure vessels for a living, in the aerospace industry. I'm
>> curious what the ground-bound do with their ridiculously high safety
>> factors.
>
> My understanding is that they do a hydro test, IE they fill the tank with
> water up to a certain pressure (usually much higher than the tank will see
> with CO2). They use water because if the tank cracks, it won't explode
> since the water doesn't compress under pressure. It'll basically just
> go "pop" and then start to leak.

Yes, that's what we do with our items, but we typically don't put them
in a bath and look for displacement like Tom described. So we only get
to see whether it broke, not just whether it yielded. And that could be
important... because our margins are so low, we could yield something on
the proof and then fail it in actual use.

I will need to consider this further...

--
Daniel O. Miller

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein

WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17

Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.

Date: 27 Jun 2006 01:40:52
From: Eric Scantlebury
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

"Eric Scantlebury" <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:WpEng.1310$H32.949@trndny06...
> Hello all,
>
> I am pondering purchasing some used equipment that someone is getting rid
> of. One of the items is an aluminum CO2 tank and regulator. I
> specifically asked when the tank was last certified as I understand you
> need certification every five years or so. The tank has not been
> certified since the original purchase back in 1993. Should I stand clear
> of this equipment or is it fairly certain that the tank is probably ok and
> should be able to be recertified? Also, do filling places even check?
>
> I'm a newbie at the hobby and just don't want to be burned on some used
> equipment.

Ok - I bought the equipment. I'm sure I'm going to have many questions for
you guys in the future as Mr Beer is the limit of my current knowledge
(practical knowledge anyway - I've been doing research for a month and a
half now so I have a basic understanding of what to do with this stuff:).
The tank still is under pressure with CO2 and looks in good shape so
hopefully I can count this equipment (including some cornys and other
equipment) as a score. I'll post a new thread with an intro to the group
and the "score" soon (well maybe this weekend as I gotta coach baseball for
the next 3 days straight). LOL!

Thanks for all your input.

Date: 28 Jun 2006 11:18:58
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

"Eric Scantlebury" <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:E00og.1641$Ws2.841@trndny04...
>
> "Eric Scantlebury" <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:WpEng.1310$H32.949@trndny06...
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I am pondering purchasing some used equipment that someone is getting
rid
> > of. One of the items is an aluminum CO2 tank and regulator. I
> > specifically asked when the tank was last certified as I understand you
> > need certification every five years or so. The tank has not been
> > certified since the original purchase back in 1993. Should I stand
clear
> > of this equipment or is it fairly certain that the tank is probably ok
and
> > should be able to be recertified? Also, do filling places even check?
> >
> > I'm a newbie at the hobby and just don't want to be burned on some used
> > equipment.
>
> Ok - I bought the equipment. I'm sure I'm going to have many questions
for
> you guys in the future as Mr Beer is the limit of my current knowledge
> (practical knowledge anyway - I've been doing research for a month and a
> half now so I have a basic understanding of what to do with this stuff:).
> The tank still is under pressure with CO2 and looks in good shape so
> hopefully I can count this equipment (including some cornys and other
> equipment) as a score. I'll post a new thread with an intro to the group
> and the "score" soon (well maybe this weekend as I gotta coach baseball
for
> the next 3 days straight). LOL!
>
> Thanks for all your input.

You can also take the tank to a supplier that exchanges empties for full.
The one I go to doesn't check the date before they exchange. They must
just include occasional retesting of tanks in the price.

Bob

Date: 28 Jun 2006 21:06:26
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

Bob wrote:
>
> You can also take the tank to a supplier that exchanges empties for full.
> The one I go to doesn't check the date before they exchange. They must
> just include occasional retesting of tanks in the price.
>
> Bob

This is what I do with tanks that are close to needing certification.
The exchange costs about $3 more than the place I use for refills, but
it is certainly cheaper than paying for the whole hydrotest myself. A
couple months back I exchanged an old 20# tank I found by a dumpster
behind a closed down bowling alley. It was 7 years out of date but the
airgas folks exchanged it for only $16. Pretty good deal for a freshly
painted full tank with new hydrotest!

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Date: 28 Jun 2006 18:32:54
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:18:58 -0700, <bobnospam@gmail.com > wrote:
> You can also take the tank to a supplier that exchanges empties for full.
> The one I go to doesn't check the date before they exchange. They must
> just include occasional retesting of tanks in the price.

I think that's basically what they do. From what I've seen, places that
swap tanks tend to be a little more expensive than places that refill.
They're probably just factoring the testing and eventual replacement cost
into the price for the swap. It probably all evens out in the end though.
If you swap tanks, you're paying for it a little at a time. If you keep
your tank and have it refilled, you're paying for the testing/replacement
all at once.

John.

Date: 26 Jun 2006 17:24:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Used equipment - CO2 tank and certification - newbie question

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:49:26 GMT, <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net > wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am pondering purchasing some used equipment that someone is getting rid
> of. One of the items is an aluminum CO2 tank and regulator. I specifically
> asked when the tank was last certified as I understand you need
> certification every five years or so. The tank has not been certified since
> the original purchase back in 1993. Should I stand clear of this equipment
> or is it fairly certain that the tank is probably ok and should be able to
> be recertified? Also, do filling places even check?

In my experience, yes they do really check. I wouldn't worry about it though.
There's a good chance that the tank is fine, even being that old. If you
really want to though, see if you can work out a deal with the seller that
the purchase is contingent on the tank passing a new certification.

John.