| |
Main
Date: 13 Nov 2006 14:03:11
From: Bob the Brewer
Subject: Two bad batches in a row
|
I've had two batches of beer in a row turn out very badly. They are
both straigh-forward extract based recipes. The first was an APA using
the WLP060 American Ale Yeast Blend, the second was a pilsner using
WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast. Both were conducted in a chest freezer
with an extrnal thermostat. The APA at 65F and the Pilsner at 50F.
Both beers have a strong sour taste to them. They both also seem to
cause the drinker some G.I. distress. The bottle conditioned
carbonation level seems normal with them (no gushers) but the
carbonation does seem a little course (larger, more soda pop like
bubbles than normal.)
I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking it's probably
bacterial, but I don't know that for sure.
I use a 6 gallon glass primary carboy and a 5 gallon glass secondary.
I have a plastic 6 gallon bucket for bottling. I also use a C.F.
chiller with the wort transferring through 3/8" OD copper.
I don't know if the problem is something in my environment, something
gone astray with my sanitization techniques, or something that is
persisting with my equipment.
I'm thinking I'll probably throw away my racking hoses and buy new
ones. But as far as the carboys, chiller, and the rest of my stuff
goes, how can I be sure I've totally wiped out whatever is causing this
problem. Should I use a *really* strong bleach solution and let it
soak a long time? Are there any bacteria or spores that will survive
even a long soak in strong bleach?
Thanks!
Bob
|
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 19:54:29
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
T.J. Higgins wrote:
> In article <1163455391.301815.113260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Bob the Brewer wrote:
> >I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking it's probably
> >bacterial, but I don't know that for sure.
>
> Yep, the symptoms sound like a lacto-bacillus infection.
>
> >I use a 6 gallon glass primary carboy and a 5 gallon glass secondary.
> >I have a plastic 6 gallon bucket for bottling. I also use a C.F.
> >chiller with the wort transferring through 3/8" OD copper.
>
> The spigot on the bucket is a good hiding place for nasty bugs.
> Dismantle the spigot completely and sanitize it thoroughly.
agreed.
>
> The CF chiller is another point of concern. Fill it with
> sanitizer, soak it for several days, then run a LOT of boiling
> water through it.
If the sanitizer you are using doesn't kill things off in 10-20
minutes, days won't make a bit of difference. If something microbial
can stand up to 20 minutes in an ozone rich and high pH, or chlorine
enviroment, mankind is in deep shit.
>
> Finally, consider the airlocks on your carboys. When you put
> an airlock on a carboy, then put the carboy in your fermenting
> freezer, it is possible for some water in the airlock to be
> sucked into the carboy as the air in the head space cools. So
> sanitize that airlock before you use it. Think about using
> distilled water in the airlock, and also think about putting a
> SMALL drop of sanitizer into the airlock water.
Or add enough water so that the seal is kept, but the water won't back
flow into your fermenter. Most of the airlocks I have have marks from
the makers for this purpose.
>
> You can buy 91% rubbing alcohol for only slightly more than
> what you pay for the standard 75% or whatever it is. Get a
> spray bottle of alcohol and give everything a final spray
> before it contacts the wort.
Isopropyl is made to be non-drinkable. It's not nearly as toxic as
methyl alcohol, but it isn't good for you. (well, neither is ethyl, but
that's the good stuff. ;) ) I would buy a bottle of Everclear or 90+
PGA (pure grain alcohol) if you want to go that way.
>
> Good luck.
Always.
>
> --
> TJH
>
> tjhiggin.at.hiwaay.dot.net
Bryan
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 22:40:16
From: T.J. Higgins
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
In article <1163455391.301815.113260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, Bob the Brewer wrote:
>I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking it's probably
>bacterial, but I don't know that for sure.
Yep, the symptoms sound like a lacto-bacillus infection.
>I use a 6 gallon glass primary carboy and a 5 gallon glass secondary.
>I have a plastic 6 gallon bucket for bottling. I also use a C.F.
>chiller with the wort transferring through 3/8" OD copper.
The spigot on the bucket is a good hiding place for nasty bugs.
Dismantle the spigot completely and sanitize it thoroughly.
The CF chiller is another point of concern. Fill it with
sanitizer, soak it for several days, then run a LOT of boiling
water through it.
Finally, consider the airlocks on your carboys. When you put
an airlock on a carboy, then put the carboy in your fermenting
freezer, it is possible for some water in the airlock to be
sucked into the carboy as the air in the head space cools. So
sanitize that airlock before you use it. Think about using
distilled water in the airlock, and also think about putting a
SMALL drop of sanitizer into the airlock water.
You can buy 91% rubbing alcohol for only slightly more than
what you pay for the standard 75% or whatever it is. Get a
spray bottle of alcohol and give everything a final spray
before it contacts the wort.
Good luck.
--
TJH
tjhiggin.at.hiwaay.dot.net
|
| | |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 02:43:51
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
"T.J. Higgins" <ernest.p.worrell@vernal.equinox.edu > wrote in message
news:12lht2gd3fvq9f8@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <1163455391.301815.113260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Bob
> the Brewer wrote:
>>I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking it's probably
> You can buy 91% rubbing alcohol for only slightly more than
> what you pay for the standard 75% or whatever it is. Get a
> spray bottle of alcohol and give everything a final spray
> before it contacts the wort.
>
Rubbing alcohol is usually isopropyl alcohol - quite toxic. I would make
sure that it is all thoroughly evaporated before it contacts the wort. Even
then, I don't know if it leaves any dry residue to contend with.
Steve W (in Aus)
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 16:29:04
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
Bob the Brewer wrote:
> I've had two batches of beer in a row turn out very badly. They are
> both straigh-forward extract based recipes. The first was an APA using
> the WLP060 American Ale Yeast Blend, the second was a pilsner using
> WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast. Both were conducted in a chest freezer
> with an extrnal thermostat. The APA at 65F and the Pilsner at 50F.
> Both beers have a strong sour taste to them. They both also seem to
> cause the drinker some G.I. distress. The bottle conditioned
> carbonation level seems normal with them (no gushers) but the
> carbonation does seem a little course (larger, more soda pop like
> bubbles than normal.)
>
> I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm thinking it's probably
> bacterial, but I don't know that for sure.
>
> I use a 6 gallon glass primary carboy and a 5 gallon glass secondary.
> I have a plastic 6 gallon bucket for bottling. I also use a C.F.
> chiller with the wort transferring through 3/8" OD copper.
>
> I don't know if the problem is something in my environment, something
> gone astray with my sanitization techniques, or something that is
> persisting with my equipment.
>
> I'm thinking I'll probably throw away my racking hoses and buy new
> ones. But as far as the carboys, chiller, and the rest of my stuff
> goes, how can I be sure I've totally wiped out whatever is causing this
> problem. Should I use a *really* strong bleach solution and let it
> soak a long time? Are there any bacteria or spores that will survive
> even a long soak in strong bleach?
I'd consider tossing the bucket as well. You could also consider a long
soak for the chiller in StarSan, or recirculating sanitizer through the
chiller for an extended period. A long soak in bleach is probably not
good for the copper. Should work fine for the carboys and bottles, but
rinse well. Dunno if it'll kill every spore, but it should do the job.
Is the beer sour at bottling or does it develop later? You haven't
mentioned how you sanitize your bottles (or actually, anything else).
Let us know -- maybe there's a problem there.
If you're not using a starter already, use one.
Hope that helps -- m
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 09:02:56
From: Bob the Brewer
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
Thanks for taking the time for the replies so far!
I'll try to answer a few of the questions I've been asked so far.
> Is the beer sour at bottling or does it develop later?
The pilsner was definitely sour prior to bottling. I'm not positive
about the APA. I did taste the APA prior to bottling, and didn't
notice the sour taste, but it's a much more highly hopped beer so I
might just have missed it. Now after bottle conditioning, the sour
taste (and even more, the sour smell) is evident in both batches.
> You haven't mentioned how you sanitize your bottles (or actually, anything else). Let us know -- maybe there's a problem there.
The bottles get a long soak in a mild bleach solution, then I rinse
them with a jet carboy and bottle washer, and put them in my dish
washer. I then run the dishwasher (without any detergent) on a full
cycle with the "sani-dry" setting while I make my primiing solution and
transfer into my bucket.
As far as the primary fermenter and the C.F. chiller go, I typically
pour about 4 oz of Saniclean into the primary, and then fill it all the
way to the very top with tap water from my garden hose while I boil my
wort. Then as my boil is getting finished, I siphon the Saniclean out
of the primary through the racking hoses and C.F. chiller into an extra
bucket. Once I get all the Saniclean solution siphoned out of the
fermenter, I turn the carboy upside down and let it drip dry. I
usually coil the racking hoses and stick them in the bucket that now
contains the Saniclean. I also put my siphon starter, thief,
hydometer, thermometer, racking canes, and aeration gizmo (a six inch
piece of racking cane with a bunch of small holes drilled in it) into
the bucket to soak.
I then stop my boil, and siphon out of my kettle through the chiller
and out another length of racking hose. I let the first few ounces of
wort go to waste to purge any remaining Saniclean in the chiller or the
hoses, then attach my aeration gizmo and let it flow into the
fermenter. Admittedly, on these past two batches, I did not make a
starter. I pitched the White Labs tubes directly into the wort (I have
an almost 2 year old son at home, which doesn't leave a lot of time for
brewing, so I tend to brew on the spur of the moment when the
opportunity presents itself, so I didn't get a starter made on either
of these batches.) I did have a long lag time (probably close to 48
hours before significant activity) with the pilsner.
After I get my yeast pitched and the fermenter put in the freezer with
a blow off tube attached (I have to use a blow off tube, because the
fermenter is too tall with an airlock and the freezer door won't
close.) I clean all my stuff in the bucket with Saniclean, and then
siphon the saniclean back through my C.F. chiller down the drain.
> Yep, the symptoms sound like a lacto-bacillus infection.
That's what I was afraid of. Is it just the sour taste/smell that is
symptomatic of the lacto-bacillius? How about the G.I. distress and
coarse-bubbled head, are those symptoms of infection also? I don't
seem to see either of those listed in my brew books troubleshooting
sections, and "sour" beer seems to have lots of different possible
causes.
I'm probably not going to brew again until the spring now. Two bad
batches in a row really wasted a lot of time and effort, so I'm pretty
discouraged now. But, I would like to try to sanitize all my equipment
well before storing it for the winter, and then hopeflly next spring
I'll get better results.
|
| | |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 11:46:30
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
Bob the Brewer wrote:
> Thanks for taking the time for the replies so far!
>
> I'll try to answer a few of the questions I've been asked so far.
>
>> Is the beer sour at bottling or does it develop later?
>
> The pilsner was definitely sour prior to bottling. I'm not positive
> about the APA. I did taste the APA prior to bottling, and didn't
> notice the sour taste, but it's a much more highly hopped beer so I
> might just have missed it. Now after bottle conditioning, the sour
> taste (and even more, the sour smell) is evident in both batches.
>
>> You haven't mentioned how you sanitize your bottles (or actually, anything else). Let us know -- maybe there's a problem there.
>
> The bottles get a long soak in a mild bleach solution, then I rinse
> them with a jet carboy and bottle washer, and put them in my dish
> washer. I then run the dishwasher (without any detergent) on a full
> cycle with the "sani-dry" setting while I make my primiing solution and
> transfer into my bucket.
>
> As far as the primary fermenter and the C.F. chiller go, I typically
> pour about 4 oz of Saniclean into the primary, and then fill it all the
> way to the very top with tap water from my garden hose while I boil my
> wort. Then as my boil is getting finished, I siphon the Saniclean out
> of the primary through the racking hoses and C.F. chiller into an extra
> bucket. Once I get all the Saniclean solution siphoned out of the
> fermenter, I turn the carboy upside down and let it drip dry. I
> usually coil the racking hoses and stick them in the bucket that now
> contains the Saniclean. I also put my siphon starter, thief,
> hydometer, thermometer, racking canes, and aeration gizmo (a six inch
> piece of racking cane with a bunch of small holes drilled in it) into
> the bucket to soak.
Hmmm -- I believe the recommended strength for the Saniclean is around
1/2 of what you're using (assuming your primary is 5 gallons). Given
that Saniclean is acid-based, I wonder if that's not a possible source
of your sourness?
The low pitching rates will also be problematic, although you can
frequently get away with it. Especially for the pilsener, pitching a
single tube is a bad idea.
Bear in mind that WL tubes may be nowhere near full viability, depending
on age and shipping conditions. You can actually make a starter well in
advance and store it for weeks refrigerated, btw. I know how hard it is
to brew with little kids about -- I started when mine were toddlers as well.
>
> That's what I was afraid of. Is it just the sour taste/smell that is
> symptomatic of the lacto-bacillius? How about the G.I. distress and
> coarse-bubbled head, are those symptoms of infection also? I don't
> seem to see either of those listed in my brew books troubleshooting
> sections, and "sour" beer seems to have lots of different possible
> causes.
>
I doubt lacto-bacillus would cause GI distress, although brewing yeast
can in many people. Dunno about the bubbles -- that's not a familiar
symptom. Is the beer cloudy? Turbidity is often a hallmark of bacterial
infection, although it can be lot's of other things as well.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | |
Date: 19 Nov 2006 10:37:28
From: Ian Cowan
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
On 14 Nov 2006 09:02:56 -0800, "Bob the Brewer" <bob.devivo@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Thanks for taking the time for the replies so far!
>
>I'll try to answer a few of the questions I've been asked so far.
>
>> Is the beer sour at bottling or does it develop later?
>
>The pilsner was definitely sour prior to bottling. I'm not positive
>about the APA. I did taste the APA prior to bottling, and didn't
>notice the sour taste, but it's a much more highly hopped beer so I
>might just have missed it. Now after bottle conditioning, the sour
>taste (and even more, the sour smell) is evident in both batches.
>
>> You haven't mentioned how you sanitize your bottles (or actually, anything else). Let us know -- maybe there's a problem there.
>
>The bottles get a long soak in a mild bleach solution, then I rinse
>them with a jet carboy and bottle washer, and put them in my dish
>washer. I then run the dishwasher (without any detergent) on a full
>cycle with the "sani-dry" setting while I make my primiing solution and
>transfer into my bucket.
>
>As far as the primary fermenter and the C.F. chiller go, I typically
>pour about 4 oz of Saniclean into the primary, and then fill it all the
>way to the very top with tap water from my garden hose
I blamed the garden hose for some successive worser brews some time
ago.
ie that's the garden hose that's rolled up or lying across the lawn (
with or without ) water in it. Percolating in the hot sun for half
day every day.
I went to using sterilised buckets for a few brews ( to avoid the
garden hose) ie filling the fermenter from the tap.
Now i've been using the food grade water hose we use in the caravan.
Having said that, i have a problem with two bad brews - i didn't know
until i tried drinking a stubby from 3 brews ago. Bitter taste & poor
carbonisation.
But as far as i know i've been doing the same things since starting
kegging twelve months ago.
I've got my old 2ndary fermenter soaking in detergent/cleaner solution
[ for 24 hours so far]. I used to use it for bulk priming but as
kegging no longer need 2 fermenters. I'll prolly let it soak for
another day & brew tomorrow.
If this brew turns out bad, I will toss all the utensils / fermenters
& start again.
HTH
Ian C
>while I boil my
>wort. Then as my boil is getting finished, I siphon the Saniclean out
>of the primary through the racking hoses and C.F. chiller into an extra
>bucket. Once I get all the Saniclean solution siphoned out of the
>fermenter, I turn the carboy upside down and let it drip dry. I
>usually coil the racking hoses and stick them in the bucket that now
>contains the Saniclean. I also put my siphon starter, thief,
>hydometer, thermometer, racking canes, and aeration gizmo (a six inch
>piece of racking cane with a bunch of small holes drilled in it) into
>the bucket to soak.
>
>I then stop my boil, and siphon out of my kettle through the chiller
>and out another length of racking hose. I let the first few ounces of
>wort go to waste to purge any remaining Saniclean in the chiller or the
>hoses, then attach my aeration gizmo and let it flow into the
>fermenter. Admittedly, on these past two batches, I did not make a
>starter. I pitched the White Labs tubes directly into the wort (I have
>an almost 2 year old son at home, which doesn't leave a lot of time for
>brewing, so I tend to brew on the spur of the moment when the
>opportunity presents itself, so I didn't get a starter made on either
>of these batches.) I did have a long lag time (probably close to 48
>hours before significant activity) with the pilsner.
>
>After I get my yeast pitched and the fermenter put in the freezer with
>a blow off tube attached (I have to use a blow off tube, because the
>fermenter is too tall with an airlock and the freezer door won't
>close.) I clean all my stuff in the bucket with Saniclean, and then
>siphon the saniclean back through my C.F. chiller down the drain.
>
>> Yep, the symptoms sound like a lacto-bacillus infection.
>
>That's what I was afraid of. Is it just the sour taste/smell that is
>symptomatic of the lacto-bacillius? How about the G.I. distress and
>coarse-bubbled head, are those symptoms of infection also? I don't
>seem to see either of those listed in my brew books troubleshooting
>sections, and "sour" beer seems to have lots of different possible
>causes.
>
>I'm probably not going to brew again until the spring now. Two bad
>batches in a row really wasted a lot of time and effort, so I'm pretty
>discouraged now. But, I would like to try to sanitize all my equipment
>well before storing it for the winter, and then hopeflly next spring
>I'll get better results.
|
| | | |
Date: 21 Nov 2006 19:57:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:37:28 +1000, <iancowan@optusnet.com.au > wrote:
> Having said that, i have a problem with two bad brews - i didn't know
> until i tried drinking a stubby from 3 brews ago. Bitter taste & poor
> carbonisation.
IMO, bitter taste and poor carbonation don't necessarily imply any
infection problems. That could just be related to the recipe and
how you prime/condition.
John.
|
| | | | |
Date: 24 Nov 2006 15:18:27
From: Ian Cowan
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
On 21 Nov 2006 19:57:35 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:37:28 +1000, <iancowan@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Having said that, i have a problem with two bad brews - i didn't know
>> until i tried drinking a stubby from 3 brews ago. Bitter taste & poor
>> carbonisation.
>
>IMO, bitter taste and poor carbonation don't necessarily imply any
>infection problems.
Possibly.
Maybe I was too 'primed' when bottling/brewing.
>That could just be related to the recipe and
>how you prime/condition.
>
Again possibly.
But after 10 or 15 brews over a year & probably only three recipes
used it means i mostly get it rigtht.
Lots of possible reasons.
Score harboring bacteria in the fermenter, etc.
Just that it can be cheaper in the long run to start from scratch,
ie a brew costs $45 ( Australian)
or a fermenter + bits $60 + brew $45 would cost around $105.
Ian C
>
>John.
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 08:19:12
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
The likely culprit is the CF chiller. Thats when the wort is most
vulnerable. Plus since it came out in two consecutive batches...you
probably didnt fail on the sanatizaton of your fermemter twice.
They are right...run boiling water throght the chiller, opposite the
way you normally run your wort. If you want to go hard core...buy some
Sodium Hydroxide. Its what most breweries use. Its caustic, AKA Lye.
Its the active ingredient in most drain clog removers. Mix up a 3%
mixture at 150 degrees and recirculate that through the CF chiller.
Wear eye protection...and keep a bucket of acidified water nearby in
case you get it on your hands....about vinegar strength would do.
After recirculating, flush with hot water then purge with CO2. The CO2
will neutralize any residual caustic. There would be no more bacteria
hiding after that.
Avoid bleach and Rubbing alcohol. The Everclear is a good tip.
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 08:19:08
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
The likely culprit is the CF chiller. Thats when the wort is most
vulnerable. Plus since it came out in two consecutive batches...you
probably didnt fail on the sanatizaton of your fermemter twice.
They are right...run boiling water throght the chiller, opposite the
way you normally run your wort. If you want to go hard core...buy some
Sodium Hydroxide. Its what most breweries use. Its caustic, AKA Lye.
Its the active ingredient in most drain clog removers. Mix up a 3%
mixture at 150 degrees and recirculate that through the CF chiller.
Wear eye protection...and keep a bucket of acidified water nearby in
case you get it on your hands....about vinegar strength would do.
After recirculating, flush with hot water then purge with CO2. The CO2
will neutralize any residual caustic. There would be no more bacteria
hiding after that.
Avoid bleach and Rubbing alcohol. The Everclear is a good tip.
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 12:32:00
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> The likely culprit is the CF chiller. Thats when the wort is most
> vulnerable. Plus since it came out in two consecutive batches...you
> probably didnt fail on the sanatizaton of your fermemter twice.
>
> They are right...run boiling water throght the chiller, opposite the
> way you normally run your wort. If you want to go hard core...buy some
> Sodium Hydroxide. Its what most breweries use. Its caustic, AKA Lye.
> Its the active ingredient in most drain clog removers. Mix up a 3%
> mixture at 150 degrees and recirculate that through the CF chiller.
> Wear eye protection...and keep a bucket of acidified water nearby in
> case you get it on your hands....about vinegar strength would do.
You don't need anything as nasty as lye. Simple soda ash, also known
as washing soda, works well and is much easier on humans than lye.
It's one of the ingredients in Oxyclean, and it's knockoffs. Most of
them also have sodium percarbonate that releases O2 when disolved in
water so that gets the little bugs from another direction since many
microbes can't survive in a very high oxygen enviroment.
>
> After recirculating, flush with hot water then purge with CO2. The CO2
> will neutralize any residual caustic. There would be no more bacteria
> hiding after that.
Not sure how a CO2 enviro will neutralize the caustic residue, if any
remains after a good rinsing. To neutralize a very base solution you
need a mild acid solution.
>
> Avoid bleach and Rubbing alcohol. The Everclear is a good tip.
|
| |
Date: 15 Nov 2006 21:49:54
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
On 13 Nov 2006 14:03:11 -0800, <bob.devivo@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm thinking I'll probably throw away my racking hoses and buy new
> ones. But as far as the carboys, chiller, and the rest of my stuff
> goes, how can I be sure I've totally wiped out whatever is causing this
> problem. Should I use a *really* strong bleach solution and let it
> soak a long time?
That's what I would do. Replace the cheap stuff and clean the rest in a
strong bleach soak. It certainly sounds like you've picked up a bacteria
infection somewhere in your equipment.
> Are there any bacteria or spores that will survive
> even a long soak in strong bleach?
Not that I know of, at least none commonly encountered in brewing.
John.
|
| |
Date: 18 Nov 2006 19:09:12
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> If you want to go hard core...buy some
> Sodium Hydroxide. Its what most breweries use. Its caustic, AKA Lye.
The brewery I worked at used Potassium Hydroxide, i.e. caustic potash
(KOH), followed by an acid sanitizer. I use this for homebrewing
projects as well but it does require extreme care (safety glasses,
rubber gloves, and, as you stated, a neutralizer nearby).
|
| |
Date: 22 Nov 2006 08:18:04
From: Bob the Brewer
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> I doubt lacto-bacillus would cause GI distress, although brewing yeast
> can in many people. Dunno about the bubbles -- that's not a familiar
> symptom. Is the beer cloudy? Turbidity is often a hallmark of bacterial
> infection, although it can be lot's of other things as well.
Neither of the beers is particularly cloudy. So perhaps it isn't an
infection.
Someone suggested that perhaps it was the Saniclean causing the flavor.
These were the first two batches I used Saniclean on, prior to that I
always used household bleach, so I thought that seemed like a promising
idea. To test it, I took a bottle of Bud Light and poured into a pint
glass and then added a few drops of undiluted Saniclean using an infant
medicine dropper. My thought was that a few drops of straight
Saniclean directly in the beer might approximate the contribution of a
siphon hose full of diluted Saniclean in 5 gallons of wort. I drank
it, and didn't notice any off taste what-so-ever. So, I put in the
rest of the medicine dropper, stirred it, and took a sip. There was
perhaps a slight medicinal taste (or was it my imagination?) at this
point, but it was nothing like the sour, almost labic-like taste of the
pilsner I bottled. I realize that one major problem with this
experiment is that the effect the cleanser has on a finished beer after
only moments of contact time might be completely different than what
that same chemical does when introduced to the wort prior to
fermentation and then is left there for weeks.
I have discovered one more interesting piece of information that may or
may not be relavent. The chest freezer that I did my fermentations in
doesn't work. Now that I was done brewing for the season, I
disconnected the external Johnson Refrigerator Thermostat and plugged
the freezer directly into the outlet. It ran for several days and
didn't get cold at all. I guess I have that variable to add to the
mix. My fermentation temps were probably swinging all over the place
since it was in a non-functioning chest freezer in an uninsulated
garage.
Even though it's my nature to want to find root cause, I think I'm just
going to throw my hands up on this one and hope that the beers I brew
next spring turn out better.
Thanks for the help!
|
| |
Date: 25 Nov 2006 11:49:44
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
KOH is a little less hazardous as NaOH. I use non-chlorinated KOH to
clean my draft lines. But it lacks the pure muscle of KaOH.
statesblue@aol.com wrote:
> harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> > If you want to go hard core...buy some
> > Sodium Hydroxide. Its what most breweries use. Its caustic, AKA Lye.
>
> The brewery I worked at used Potassium Hydroxide, i.e. caustic potash
> (KOH), followed by an acid sanitizer. I use this for homebrewing
> projects as well but it does require extreme care (safety glasses,
> rubber gloves, and, as you stated, a neutralizer nearby).
|
| |
Date: 25 Nov 2006 11:47:49
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
I agree that NaOH is dangerous and should be used very cautiously if at
all by the average homebrewer. Wear eye protection and gloves. But it
is much more effective than the oxygen cleaners. And if you add 2%
chlorine to the mixed caustic it will clean eben more effectively. I do
this once every few months through my wort chillers. Don't go overboard
on the chlorine though as it is hard on stainless steel.
> Not sure how a CO2 enviro will neutralize the caustic residue, if any
> remains after a good rinsing. To neutralize a very base solution you
> need a mild acid solution.
Heres the formula regarding CO2 neutralizing caustic
The dissolved CO2 species is a function of pH. Geochemistry,
groundwater and pollution by Appelo and Postma (1996), p.94, shows that
HCO3- is the predominant species for the pH range 6.5-10, so I suggest
that the neutralization reaction is:
Na+ + OH- + HCO3- + H+ = NaHCO3 + H2O
Hence, 44 grams of CO2 will neutralize 40 grams of NaOH.
|
| |
Date: 25 Nov 2006 11:25:12
From:
Subject: Re: Two bad batches in a row
|
CO2 bonds on a molecular level with NaOH (sodium hydroxide) or KOH
(potassium hydroxide) and renders it neutral. Its a good way to follow
a caustic rinse....acid obviously will also neutralize caustic, bit
then you will have the acid sanitizer to deal with....while not always
a problem...it could be.
>
> Not sure how a CO2 enviro will neutralize the caustic residue, if any
> remains after a good rinsing. To neutralize a very base solution you
> need a mild acid solution.
>
> >
|
|
