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Date: 27 Oct 2006 21:56:33
From: Scott Streiker
Subject: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
before charging and bottling.
Question???
1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
avoided?
2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
Thanks
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Date: 27 Oct 2006 19:30:19
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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Scott Streiker wrote:
> After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
> days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
> siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
> before charging and bottling.
>
> Question???
> 1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
> avoided?
> 2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
> grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
> 3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
> 2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
> sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
>
> Thanks
You don't mention your recipe (it matters), but, for hevan's sake,
don't worry.
The darker the beer, the more anti-oxidants it contains and the more
resistant it is to oxidation. If you had a very light pilsner lager,
you might have to take super extra percautions, but I doubt you are
dealing with that (or you would probably know the answer). As has
been mentioned, you'll be OK if you exercise reasonable caution during
the transfer; you don't have to be anal about it. Just don't aerate
it.
Your beer should be super-saturated with CO2, which will start to come
out of solution, which will tend to protect the beer as long as you
aren't splashing it around.
RDWHAHB
ab
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Date: 28 Oct 2006 14:41:49
From: timmy
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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alebrewer wrote:
> Scott Streiker wrote:
>
>>After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
>>days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
>>siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
>>before charging and bottling.
>>
>>Question???
>>1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
>>avoided?
>>2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
>>grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
>>3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
>>2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
>>sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
>>
>>Thanks
>
i started brewing beer at age 15 and i was as lazy and careless as they
came at that age, and i still never managed to oxidize a beer, so i
doubt you'll have any troubles.
as the guys have said the beer at this stage is full fo co2 and will
blanket itself in it.
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Date: 27 Oct 2006 19:03:45
From: Spitzbuben
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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I say like amny other brewers, secondary is unneeded. Just leave it in
the primary for a few more weeks. it will settle. you'll get
briillant clear beers. consider this, your secondary is the bottle.
just be a lazy brewer, it pays. leave it alone. come back in 2-3
weeks, if you trust your sanitation and bottle it.
Prost
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Date: 27 Oct 2006 18:46:31
From: Ed Edelenbos
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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"Scott Streiker" <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:lgv0h.24267$7I1.2596@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
> days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
> siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
> before charging and bottling.
>
> Question???
> 1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
> avoided?
> 2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
> grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
> 3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
> 2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
> sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
>
> Thanks
>
1.) No
2.) If no air gets in, the siphon won't work.
3.)???
Oxidation will occur if air is mixed with the beer. There will be a layer
of co2 on top of the beer which will stay there as the beer is siphoned off.
Try to make sure the hose on the racking tube has a hose long enough to
reach to the bottom of the secondary and minimize the splashing as you put
the tube in after starting the siphon. When I bottled, I would sanitize my
bottling bucket (including the spigot), boil a cup (or so) of water with the
priming sugar, pour that in the bottling bucket, then siphon the beer in.
Typically, I never put a lid on the bucket while bottling.
Long ago, I had one or two oxidized batches. It (or they) were before I
learned how to rack. I was pouring from one fermenter to the other or into
the bottles. Maybe I've just been lucky but in my experience, you almost
have to try to oxidize a batch.
Ed
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 21:01:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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On Fri, 27 2006 18:46:31 -0400, <eded@spookeasy.net > wrote:
> Long ago, I had one or two oxidized batches. It (or they) were before I
> learned how to rack. I was pouring from one fermenter to the other or into
> the bottles. Maybe I've just been lucky but in my experience, you almost
> have to try to oxidize a batch.
Oxidation fears are way overblown by many homebrewers. I agree with Ed,
if you're pouring the beer from primary to secondary then you'll probably
have issues. If you're siphoning it, then stop worrying.
John.
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Date: 28 Oct 2006 13:59:15
From: Scott S.
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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Thanks to all the respondents who have added to my brewing education. I am
enjoying brewing with an inquiring mind.
Attitude there is always time to learn a lot while "relaxing...with another
homebrew."
First brew happening is a look-alike Listermanns kit "Anchor Steam"
containing both malt extract and grains. Yeast is a bottom fermenting type
for Ale.
Hops are Nothern.
The replies in this newsgroup and others re: brewing display a marked
dissimiliarity of experiences, advise. Even the "all about" brew books by
various authors write dissimiliar explanations and methodologies.
As a result of theses dissimiliar "cults"
I'll continue this brew as follows:
1) Two weeks+ in Primary ( and then after hydrometer reading is stable two
consequitive days...
2) ...Transfer by slow sanbtized sipon, avoiding disturbing turb/sediment,
to sanitized glass carboy...
clarification and aging... Record F.G. and other pertinent observations
4) Transfer again to bottling bucket containing dissolved charging sugars
and from there immediately into sanitized bottles. 5) Test and record taste
and sensiometric, rheologic, morphological, high resolution scanning
electron photomicrographs, tongue scrapings, etc.
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus opps, I mean a "scientific appraoch"
complete with note and observations...This brew has been named KBOO GUD BRUE
to honor the early observations of the ill-fated attemp to establish a
colony on Roanoke Island off South Carolina as described in the writing by
Thomas Hariot "Narrative of the First English Plantation"in which he stated
early brewing developments.
I expect to report results in 4+ weeks on this forum of insights/experiences
from initial attempt to find a "best approach synthesized from various
online and print authors"
Oh yeah, for those who are encouraging with thier info and input Thanks
For those who are casual and find 2ndry and re-racking and other tasks, as
they write, "anal".. Thanks for you thoughts.
Final observation, at this time, sip a beer and realize that "tongue in
cheek" exposes the largest surface area for the greatest number of taste
buds!
BTW, Budweis is a town located near Pilsen.
>
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Date: 28 Oct 2006 12:30:44
From: Ed Edelenbos
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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"Scott S." <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:TmJ0h.17327$TV3.11533@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Oh yeah, for those who are encouraging with thier info and input Thanks
> For those who are casual and find 2ndry and re-racking and other tasks, as
> they write, "anal".. Thanks for you thoughts.
I had to go back and make sure that comment didn't apply to me. (grin)
It's easy to get caught up in all of the "mights" in brewing (as with lots
of endeavors). A couple horror stories can scare off a lot of people.
Something to keep in mind is that (from what I've read), brewing was done by
the cook of the house in days when everyday sanitation was nowhere near what
it is today... And they ended up with (according to accounts) drinkable
(and sometimes pretty darned tasty) brews. Any more, when I don't know why
something turned out the way it did (or didn't turn out the way I expected)
I try to figure out why. Until then... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
(grin)
Ed
> Final observation, at this time, sip a beer and realize that "tongue in
> cheek" exposes the largest surface area for the greatest number of taste
> buds!
>
> BTW, Budweis is a town located near Pilsen.
>>
>
>
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 15:45:22
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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Scott S. wrote:
> John, thanks for your input.
> The scientific method provides structure to experimentation and inquiry.
> Understanding beyond the superficial is neither clinical parnoia or
> anal-retentive.
> Be advised that learning seekis answers, which often poses further
> questions. Inuqiring minds also can collect data and then "relax and have a
> home-brew".
>
I think you will discover that the many homebrewers are very
anaylitical and are constantly conducting "experiments" to evaluate
changes in their materials and/or processes. Learning how to relax and
not obsess over insignificant details is one of the harder lessons for
the analytically minded to learn, but necessary in order to learn which
details are significant.
>From your question, it sounded as if post-fermentation oxidation is of
prime concern. Issues such as fermentation temperature, hot-side
aeration, sanitation, and other process variables (not to mention raw
material concerns) have a much larger effect on the final product. An
inquiring mind is a good trait, but to dismiss sound advice because you
percieve it as labeling you "anal-retentive" or "paranoid" is, well,
just that; ignoring sound advice whose intent is to teach, not
criticize.
Beer is very forgiving. It has been produced for centuries by master
brewers who were not even aware of the existance of yeast, let alone
any of the the finer scientific principles employed today by both the
hobbyist and commercial brewers. No amount of scientific analysis,
however, can replace solid experience, which can only be gained one
batch at a time. Listening and paying attention to lessons learned by
others can increase the knowledge gained by those batches.
I hope your first "brew happening" is very tasty and rewarding.
I also hope it is the worst batch you produce.
ab
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 01:08:35
From: Gwidman
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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"alebrewer" <alebrewer@wt.net > wrote in message
news:1162251922.192564.15430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Scott S. wrote:
>> John, thanks for your input.
>> The scientific method provides structure to experimentation and inquiry.
>> Understanding beyond the superficial is neither clinical parnoia or
>> anal-retentive.
>> Be advised that learning seekis answers, which often poses further
>> questions. Inuqiring minds also can collect data and then "relax and
>> have a
>> home-brew".
>>
>
> I think you will discover that the many homebrewers are very
> anaylitical and are constantly conducting "experiments" to evaluate
> changes in their materials and/or processes. Learning how to relax and
> not obsess over insignificant details is one of the harder lessons for
> the analytically minded to learn, but necessary in order to learn which
> details are significant.
>
>>From your question, it sounded as if post-fermentation oxidation is of
> prime concern. Issues such as fermentation temperature, hot-side
> aeration, sanitation, and other process variables (not to mention raw
> material concerns) have a much larger effect on the final product. An
> inquiring mind is a good trait, but to dismiss sound advice because you
> percieve it as labeling you "anal-retentive" or "paranoid" is, well,
> just that; ignoring sound advice whose intent is to teach, not
> criticize.
>
> Beer is very forgiving. It has been produced for centuries by master
> brewers who were not even aware of the existance of yeast, let alone
> any of the the finer scientific principles employed today by both the
> hobbyist and commercial brewers. No amount of scientific analysis,
> however, can replace solid experience, which can only be gained one
> batch at a time. Listening and paying attention to lessons learned by
> others can increase the knowledge gained by those batches.
>
> I hope your first "brew happening" is very tasty and rewarding.
> I also hope it is the worst batch you produce.
>
> ab
I've done some serious HSA while I was learning to brew beer. If it is a
real problem, I think it only applies to long term storage/aging of beer, as
my beers were good up to 3 months before they were consumed.
gw
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 16:45:12
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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On Tue, 31 2006 01:08:35 -0500, <gwidman@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> I've done some serious HSA while I was learning to brew beer. If it is a
> real problem, I think it only applies to long term storage/aging of beer, as
> my beers were good up to 3 months before they were consumed.
HSA is a completely different topic from oxidation while racking to a
secondary.
John.
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 01:45:46
From: Gwidman
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnekevl6.6o4.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Tue, 31 2006 01:08:35 -0500, <gwidman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> I've done some serious HSA while I was learning to brew beer. If it is a
>> real problem, I think it only applies to long term storage/aging of beer,
>> as
>> my beers were good up to 3 months before they were consumed.
>
> HSA is a completely different topic from oxidation while racking to a
> secondary.
>
>
> John.
John, you're right, for sure. My intent was to minimize the apprehension
new brewers have about making beer. You don't have to watch the stuff being
brewed like it was a new baby being grown in the placenta. But now that I
think about it, when I first started, I was terribly anal, and worried about
temps and times in primary and secondary. Every new brewer will eventually
become comfortable with their methods, and look back on the times they spent
inordinate amounts of time babysitting their brews. It's a fun process and
I hope it's a happy one for all.
gw
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 18:53:48
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 01:45:46 -0500, <gwidman@bellsouth.net > wrote:
>
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnekevl6.6o4.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>> On Tue, 31 2006 01:08:35 -0500, <gwidman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> I've done some serious HSA while I was learning to brew beer. If it is a
>>> real problem, I think it only applies to long term storage/aging of beer,
>>> as
>>> my beers were good up to 3 months before they were consumed.
>>
>> HSA is a completely different topic from oxidation while racking to a
>> secondary.
>>
> John, you're right, for sure. My intent was to minimize the apprehension
> new brewers have about making beer.
No problem, I just didn't want the OP to get confused.
> You don't have to watch the stuff being
> brewed like it was a new baby being grown in the placenta. But now that I
> think about it, when I first started, I was terribly anal, and worried about
> temps and times in primary and secondary. Every new brewer will eventually
> become comfortable with their methods, and look back on the times they spent
> inordinate amounts of time babysitting their brews. It's a fun process and
> I hope it's a happy one for all.
Yep, I definitely agree. Relax, don't worry, etc...
John.
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 20:59:49
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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On Fri, 27 2006 21:56:33 GMT, <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
> days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
> siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
> before charging and bottling.
>
> Question???
> 1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
> avoided?
> 2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
> grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
> 3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
> 2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
> sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
You're way too paranoid about oxidation. Just take the lid off the bucket
and siphon as normal. If you can cause significant oxidation just from
siphoning the beer, you're doing something seriously wrong with your
siphoning (like splashing the beer around or something).
You can do any of the above if you *really* want to, but a normal siphon
is not going to cause noticable oxidation.
John.
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 22:03:53
From: Scott S.
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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John, thanks for your input.
The scientific method provides structure to experimentation and inquiry.
Understanding beyond the superficial is neither clinical parnoia or
anal-retentive.
Be advised that learning seekis answers, which often poses further
questions. Inuqiring minds also can collect data and then "relax and have a
home-brew".
"
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 23:05:07
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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Scott S. <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> John, thanks for your input.
> The scientific method provides structure to experimentation and inquiry.
> Understanding beyond the superficial is neither clinical parnoia or
> anal-retentive.
> Be advised that learning seekis answers, which often poses further
> questions. Inuqiring minds also can collect data and then "relax and have a
> home-brew".
>
With this hobby I've always considered "having a homebrew" and
"collecting data" to be the same thing.
:-)
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 16:46:33
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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On Mon, 30 2006 22:03:53 GMT, <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> John, thanks for your input.
> The scientific method provides structure to experimentation and inquiry.
> Understanding beyond the superficial is neither clinical parnoia or
> anal-retentive.
> Be advised that learning seekis answers, which often poses further
> questions. Inuqiring minds also can collect data and then "relax and have a
> home-brew".
That's great. It still doesn't change my opinion that you are worrying
about nothing. If you don't like that opinion, then you are free to
ignore it. I won't be offended, I promise. ;)
John.
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 09:20:21
From: Bill
Subject: Re: To avoid 2ndry Oxidation?
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"Scott Streiker" <streiker@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:lgv0h.24267$7I1.2596@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> After 2+ weeks in primary and no change hydrometer reading 2 consecutive
> days , in food grade primary (air tight lid) plans are to transfer by
> siphon the "brew" to glass carboy 2ndy for 2+ weeks add't l settling/aging
> before charging and bottling.
>
> Question???
> 1) To avoid oxidizing brew should opening of sealed lid of primary be
> avoided?
How do you plan on getting the beer to the secondary without opening the
container?
> 2) I am considering removal of airlock, insertion of siphon through same
> grommet in lid and transfer to 2ndry to avoid oxidizing brew. Comment?
You would need to have a way for air to get in for beer to go out. If you
try to siphon from a sealed container, you are going to create a vacuum in
the primary, which will halt your siphon.
I have tried this exact process by inserting a racking cane in my primary
bucket through the lid grommet and running a hose to my carboy. I thought I
was a genius... until I noticed the lid to the bucket was concave due to the
vacuum and my siphon stopped.
> 3) Also, as an alternative, considering transfer of brew from primary to
> 2ndry by attachment sanitized tube to sanitized spigot into sanitized
> sugar-charged glass carboy. Comments?
I would think that would work just fine. I personally use an auto-siphon
with the primary on the counter and the secondary on the floor and let
gravity do the work. All items are sanitized and I even cover the openings
of both carboys with foil sprayed with Starsan.
If you are feeling like that isn't enough, you can always flood both
containers with CO2 prior to your transfer so the only oxygen you will get
into the secondary carboy is what was transferred over through the siphon.
Through the centuries beer was brewed and stored in open containers that
were very porous. You find the risk levels you are will to take with your
brew and follow those.
Relax. Don't Worry. Have a home-brew.
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