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Date: 15 Jun 2006 09:21:55
From: Phil
Subject: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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I've acquired some Activator packs of Wyeast 4366 Distillers M-Strain
yeast. This strain is fermentable up to 20% and produces enzymes to
break down complex sugars (and some of the unfermentables in DME).
The description says it can be used for barley wines and other very
strong beers.
Now for the fun part:
The recipe (Atomic Stomper) starts out as a three gallon batch of
barley wine with a starting gravity of 1.116 and 107 IBUs. I'd aerate
and pitch two activator packs into the batch. Twelve hours later, I'd
aerate again.
Twenty-four hours after pitching the yeast, I'd add a gallon of
super-concentrated wort to the three gallons (6 pounds of DME in one
gallon of water = 1.276). This would give me a four gallon batch of
wort with a gravity of 1.156.
It gets better....
Twenty-four hours after this, I add another gallon of
super-concentrated wort (same as before) giving me a final-original
gravity of 1.180.
Now comes my questions:
1. Would I need to aerate again when I add the additional wort?
2. How would this affect bitterness? If I boiled everything
together, my IBUs would be about 55 IBUs. Should I even be concerned,
given that most of this will ferment out.
3. Do you think I could increase the amount of DME in the gallon
portions? Do I run the risk of sugar shock?
I'm hoping to start this sometime this weekend.
Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 09:29:17
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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Phil wrote:
> I just think that, by changing the gravity of the wort, the number of
> IBUs will be meaningless.
No it wouldn't. The total IBUs *created* during the boil are affected
by the gravity, but once they are there, they are there for good. IBUs
are just parts per million of isohumulone. After he adds more wort, the
volume will be greater so the PPM of isohumulone (IBU) will go down,
and in a predictable way.
What happens to the perceived bitterness is impossible to calculate,
but if he's just looking at IBUs, it's simple enough.
Scott
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 15:00:41
From: Phil
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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On 15 Jun 2006 09:29:17 -0700, "Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com >
wrote:
>What happens to the perceived bitterness is impossible to calculate,
>but if he's just looking at IBUs, it's simple enough.
This is what I'm concerned with. Perceived bitterness.
Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 08:41:28
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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Phil wrote:
> 2. How would this affect bitterness? If I boiled everything
> together, my IBUs would be about 55 IBUs. Should I even be concerned,
> given that most of this will ferment out.
I can't answer your other questions because I've never tried something
like this. But as for IBUs, they will be diluted according to however
much new volume you add to the batch. The IBUs are generated during the
boil and no new reactions are going to happen to change them. So if you
started with 5 gallons and end up with 8 gallons (for example), the IBU
of the resulting beer will be 5/8 the original IBU.
This is probably not going to match with the number you get if you
boiled ALL the wort at once. The utilization increases as gravity
decreases so your final IBU (after all the other malt additions) will
probably be a bit lower than if you'd boiled all at once.
Scott
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 12:21:06
From: Phil
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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On 15 Jun 2006 08:41:28 -0700, "Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com >
wrote:
>Phil wrote:
>> 2. How would this affect bitterness? If I boiled everything
>> together, my IBUs would be about 55 IBUs. Should I even be concerned,
>> given that most of this will ferment out.
>
>I can't answer your other questions because I've never tried something
>like this. But as for IBUs, they will be diluted according to however
>much new volume you add to the batch. The IBUs are generated during the
>boil and no new reactions are going to happen to change them. So if you
>started with 5 gallons and end up with 8 gallons (for example), the IBU
>of the resulting beer will be 5/8 the original IBU.
>
>This is probably not going to match with the number you get if you
>boiled ALL the wort at once. The utilization increases as gravity
>decreases so your final IBU (after all the other malt additions) will
>probably be a bit lower than if you'd boiled all at once.
I just think that, by changing the gravity of the wort, the number of
IBUs will be meaningless.
Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 16:49:06
From: PaulK
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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Phil wrote:
> I've acquired some Activator packs of Wyeast 4366 Distillers M-Strain
> yeast. This strain is fermentable up to 20% and produces enzymes to
> break down complex sugars (and some of the unfermentables in DME).
> The description says it can be used for barley wines and other very
> strong beers.
>
> Now for the fun part:
>
> The recipe (Atomic Stomper) starts out as a three gallon batch of
> barley wine with a starting gravity of 1.116 and 107 IBUs. I'd aerate
> and pitch two activator packs into the batch. Twelve hours later, I'd
> aerate again.
>
> Twenty-four hours after pitching the yeast, I'd add a gallon of
> super-concentrated wort to the three gallons (6 pounds of DME in one
> gallon of water = 1.276). This would give me a four gallon batch of
> wort with a gravity of 1.156.
>
> It gets better....
>
> Twenty-four hours after this, I add another gallon of
> super-concentrated wort (same as before) giving me a final-original
> gravity of 1.180.
>
> Now comes my questions:
>
> 1. Would I need to aerate again when I add the additional wort?
>
> 2. How would this affect bitterness? If I boiled everything
> together, my IBUs would be about 55 IBUs. Should I even be concerned,
> given that most of this will ferment out.
>
> 3. Do you think I could increase the amount of DME in the gallon
> portions? Do I run the risk of sugar shock?
>
>
> I'm hoping to start this sometime this weekend.
>
>
> Phil
> ======
> visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
> http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Phil, Phil, Phil.......[shaking head]...
You need to build up your yeast population with a good starter first
then use the first generation of yeast on a moderate gravity beer. Use
the yeast cake from that batch to try to tackle this monumental task.
If you don't condition your yeast for their feeding marathon I suspect
you'll end up with a cloying mess of a beer.
Paul
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 21:02:53
From: Phil
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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On 15 Jun 2006 16:49:06 -0700, "PaulK" <nyc_hg@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Phil, Phil, Phil.......[shaking head]...
>You need to build up your yeast population with a good starter first
>then use the first generation of yeast on a moderate gravity beer. Use
>the yeast cake from that batch to try to tackle this monumental task.
>If you don't condition your yeast for their feeding marathon I suspect
>you'll end up with a cloying mess of a beer.
You don't think that two activator packs in (originally) 3 gallons of
wort is enough?
Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
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Date: 16 Jun 2006 14:35:03
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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"Phil" <dogglebe@yahoooo.com > wrote in message
news:sn0492tipupn9i8h7tivu7t1id8ipq703a@4ax.com...
>
> You don't think that two activator packs in (originally) 3 gallons of
> wort is enough?
Probably not. Even though it's only three gallons the gravity is going to be
very high, and with two packs you'll still be pitching less cell count than
one pack of dry yeast. General rule of thumb is big beers need big starters.
Yours is a huge beer, it should have a huge starter. I'd do as Paul
suggested.
There has been some recent discussion on adding O2 after fermentation has
started. While I don't see any serious benefit for a normal brew I think it
would work without detrimental side effects for your intentions as long as
it's all in the first 48 hours give or take.
Mark R
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 13:45:06
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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Phil wrote:
> On 15 Jun 2006 09:29:17 -0700, "Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >What happens to the perceived bitterness is impossible to calculate,
> >but if he's just looking at IBUs, it's simple enough.
>
> This is what I'm concerned with. Perceived bitterness.
As I said, there's no real way to calculate perceived bitterness, but
one way to approximate it is to look at the ratio of IBUs to OG gravity
points. For instance, a beer that began at 1.060 at 60 IBUs has a
bitterness ratio of 1 (60 IBU / 60 points).
To figure this out in your case, compute the IBUs for your 3 gallon
boil, and multiply by 3/5 to get the IBUs in the diluted beer (since
you're starting with 3 gallons, and adding 2 more). Then compute the
"equivalent" OG as if you had added all the malt at once, to a 5 gallon
batch. Then take the ratio of adjusted IBUs to adjusted OG, and that's
your bitterness ratio.
I believe the bitterness ratios of most barleywines are somewhat
between 0.9 and 1.2, but this is just going off the top of my head.
Scott
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 19:52:33
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: This Might be Stupid Enougth to Work!!
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Phil <dogglebe@yahoooo.com > wrote:
> I've acquired some Activator packs of Wyeast 4366 Distillers M-Strain
> yeast. This strain is fermentable up to 20% and produces enzymes to
> break down complex sugars (and some of the unfermentables in DME).
> The description says it can be used for barley wines and other very
> strong beers.
Being a Condescending Brew Guy, I'd like to see the recipe.
> Now for the fun part:
>
> The recipe (Atomic Stomper) starts out as a three gallon batch of
> barley wine with a starting gravity of 1.116 and 107 IBUs. I'd aerate
> and pitch two activator packs into the batch. Twelve hours later, I'd
> aerate again.
>
> Twenty-four hours after pitching the yeast, I'd add a gallon of
> super-concentrated wort to the three gallons (6 pounds of DME in one
> gallon of water = 1.276). This would give me a four gallon batch of
> wort with a gravity of 1.156.
Johnny Mc did something like this with his "Cause of Death"
Barleywine.
Boiling 6 pounds of DME in a gallon solution for any length
of time seems risky to me in terms of scorching. Or am I
missing something.
> It gets better....
>
> Twenty-four hours after this, I add another gallon of
> super-concentrated wort (same as before) giving me a
> final-original gravity of 1.180.
Another 6 lbs of DME in a gallon solution?
> Now comes my questions:
>
> 1. Would I need to aerate again when I add the additional wort?
You are only 48 hours ino the fermentation of a BIG BEER.
Why not?
> 2. How would this affect bitterness? If I boiled everything
> together, my IBUs would be about 55 IBUs. Should I even be
> concerned, given that most of this will ferment out.
I don't think IBU's ferment out. But you are diluting them.
> 3. Do you think I could increase the amount of DME in the
> gallon portions? Do I run the risk of sugar shock?
I was just cleaning some gallon jugs and have a difficult
time imaging 6 lbs in a solution in one. I would not add
more, but think about a adding another gallon for a six
gallon batch with an OG of 1.196.
I will see if I saved Johnny Mc's procedure and will e-mail
it to you if I did.
> I'm hoping to start this sometime this weekend.
Sorry I can't be there. :)
Dick
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