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Main
Date: 04 Aug 2006 05:26:23
From:
Subject: Thermal Mass
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Hey gang in an effort to fine tune my repeatablility of brews I want
to get more imvolved with promash. I saw a post,I think it was a few
months ago, that suggested if you arn't sure of what your thermal mass
actually is to set a default figure in the program to a particular
value. I can't find that post and wonder what that value was. Doing
this was supposed to result in more acurate values throughout the
program in relation to my particular brewing setup. Can someone help
out and tell me what I should set that thermal mass value to? Thanks in
advance!
Steve
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:10:00
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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On 4 Aug 2006 05:26:23 -0700, <smhoneydo@aol.com > wrote:
> Hey gang in an effort to fine tune my repeatablility of brews I want
> to get more imvolved with promash. I saw a post,I think it was a few
> months ago, that suggested if you arn't sure of what your thermal mass
> actually is to set a default figure in the program to a particular
> value. I can't find that post and wonder what that value was. Doing
> this was supposed to result in more acurate values throughout the
> program in relation to my particular brewing setup. Can someone help
> out and tell me what I should set that thermal mass value to? Thanks in
> advance!
The only thing thermal mass really effects is the temp of the water
additions you need for an infusion mash. IMO, you don't really need to
enter this into Promash. After a couple batches, trial and error will
give you an idea of how much you need to bump the temps up (if any).
There shouldn't be anything else throughout the program that is effected.
John.
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 09:09:48
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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smhoneydo@aol.com wrote:
> Hey gang in an effort to fine tune my repeatablility of brews I want
> to get more imvolved with promash. I saw a post,I think it was a few
> months ago, that suggested if you arn't sure of what your thermal mass
> actually is to set a default figure in the program to a particular
> value. I can't find that post and wonder what that value was. Doing
> this was supposed to result in more acurate values throughout the
> program in relation to my particular brewing setup. Can someone help
> out and tell me what I should set that thermal mass value to? Thanks in
> advance!
>
> Steve
>
I think it was .15 (maybe). But it will vary quite a bit from
tun-to-tun. Note that if you preheat your tun with a little boiling
water (just from a tea kettle is fine), then you can set the thermal
mass to zero and pretty much always be dead-on.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 09:31:40
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> I think it was .15 (maybe). But it will vary quite a bit from
> tun-to-tun. Note that if you preheat your tun with a little boiling
> water (just from a tea kettle is fine), then you can set the thermal
> mass to zero and pretty much always be dead-on.
Yeah, I suspect most people preheat their mash tun and don't worry about its
thermal mass. Here's a pretty good layman's explanation and a practical
means to use the "thermal mass" concept:
http://byo.com/mrwizard/1327.html
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:32:45
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>> I think it was .15 (maybe). But it will vary quite a bit from
>> tun-to-tun. Note that if you preheat your tun with a little boiling
>> water (just from a tea kettle is fine), then you can set the thermal
>> mass to zero and pretty much always be dead-on.
>
> Yeah, I suspect most people preheat their mash tun and don't worry about its
> thermal mass. Here's a pretty good layman's explanation and a practical
> means to use the "thermal mass" concept:
> http://byo.com/mrwizard/1327.html
>
My first couple of batches I neglected to pre-heat my mash tun and
then did battle when it came to hitting the correct mash temp. In my
subsequent brewing sessions I've pre-heated the tun and now hitting
the mash temp is easy. *Easy*.
Note that I've never used promash or any software. Pre-heating the tun
just seemed like common sense. Plus someone in r.c.b suggested it ;-)
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:00:17
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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John Bleichert wrote:
> My first couple of batches I neglected to pre-heat my mash tun and
> then did battle when it came to hitting the correct mash temp. In my
> subsequent brewing sessions I've pre-heated the tun and now hitting
> the mash temp is easy. *Easy*.
Yup...
> Note that I've never used promash or any software. Pre-heating the tun
> just seemed like common sense. Plus someone in r.c.b suggested it ;-)
I think r.c.b. would normally have pretty good advice.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:10:51
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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Larry Bristol wrote:
>
> I think r.c.b. would normally have pretty good advice.
>
Add a pound of bleu cheese to your fermenting beer. The beer will clear
faster, and confer upon the drinker complete invincibility.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 18:42:47
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> Larry Bristol wrote:
>>
>> I think r.c.b. would normally have pretty good advice.
>>
>
> Add a pound of bleu cheese to your fermenting beer. The beer will clear
> faster, and confer upon the drinker complete invincibility.
>
>
mmmm I've got some gorgonzola left at home.....
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 13:18:12
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Larry Bristol wrote:
>> I think r.c.b. would normally have pretty good advice.
>>
> Add a pound of bleu cheese to your fermenting beer. The beer will clear
> faster, and confer upon the drinker complete invincibility.
HEY! You do that, too?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 17:17:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 12:10:51 -0500, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> Add a pound of bleu cheese to your fermenting beer. The beer will clear
> faster, and confer upon the drinker complete invincibility.
This actually works. I added bleu cheese to my beer once as an experiment
and survived the whole day, therefore I must have been invincible!
John.
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 03:58:50
From:
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 4 Aug 2006 05:26:23 -0700, <smhoneydo@aol.com> wrote:
> > Hey gang in an effort to fine tune my repeatablility of brews I want
> > to get more imvolved with promash. I saw a post,I think it was a few
> > months ago, that suggested if you arn't sure of what your thermal mass
> > actually is to set a default figure in the program to a particular
> > value. I can't find that post and wonder what that value was. Doing
> > this was supposed to result in more acurate values throughout the
> > program in relation to my particular brewing setup. Can someone help
> > out and tell me what I should set that thermal mass value to? Thanks in
> > advance!
>
> The only thing thermal mass really effects is the temp of the water
> additions you need for an infusion mash. IMO, you don't really need to
> enter this into Promash. After a couple batches, trial and error will
> give you an idea of how much you need to bump the temps up (if any).
>
> There shouldn't be anything else throughout the program that is effected.
Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
remaining figures throughout the program. My seat of the pants methods
in the past have shown a level of inconsistency from batch to batch and
I hope to improve on that. As you suggest trial and error can be
revealing but it can be expensive as well. Thanks!
Steve
>
> John.
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 09:50:16
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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> Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
> as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
> remaining figures throughout the program. My seat of the pants methods
> in the past have shown a level of inconsistency from batch to batch and
> I hope to improve on that. As you suggest trial and error can be
> revealing but it can be expensive as well. Thanks!
I've had the same experience especially when doing multiple infusions. For
me, it really matters because I use a Gott style tun. If I had a stainless
steel tun I'd just put it on the burner to get the right temp. At the
moment when my calculated strike temp doesn't hit the desired mark, I use
boiling water to raise the temp. Which throws off all of the infusion
amounts. So I use a laptop and tweak the numbers with each infusion. I
still end up falling short so I know my issue is either a bad thermometer,
bad tun thermal mass fudge factor, or bad calculation on the amount of water
I'm actually using. I can verify two of those, but not the third.
I have issues with this thermal mass number in ProMash. What are the units?
What's the current temp of your tun? My guess is it's a fudge factor that
isn't really based on the physics of heat transfer. More importantly,
ProMash should give you a wizard or instructions on how to measure the
thermal mass. For example, like bringing 10 gallons of water to 180F and
dumping it in the tun, wait five minutes, and measure the temp of the water.
That certainly could get a good measure of thermal mass, but how does that
translate to this fudge factor number in ProMash?
If anyone has instructions like this it would be great. My guess is that
this fudge factor will need to be adjusted for winter brewing and summer
brewing because it doesn't account for the physics. That is.. just a guess
at the moment.
Scott
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 09:32:02
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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Scott Lindner wrote:
> If anyone has instructions like this it would be great. My guess is that
> this fudge factor will need to be adjusted for winter brewing and summer
> brewing because it doesn't account for the physics. That is.. just a guess
> at the moment.
Here's some help from Jeff Donovan...
"Have you mashed in this setup before? If so it is easy to backtrack the
system (provided you have kept some accurate records). Just goto the
stand-alone Strike Calculator, and enter the numbers, what the strike
temp was, etc, and play with the thermal mass (0.0 to 0.9) until the
desired temp falls into line.
If you do not have records, you're gonna need to do a trial run or two
in order to make the determination. I'd suggest starting with 0.30. "
There's a lot of good info on the Prmash website.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 12:38:32
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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Scott Lindner wrote:
>> Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
>>as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
>>remaining figures throughout the program. My seat of the pants methods
>>in the past have shown a level of inconsistency from batch to batch and
>>I hope to improve on that. As you suggest trial and error can be
>>revealing but it can be expensive as well. Thanks!
>
>
> I've had the same experience especially when doing multiple infusions. For
> me, it really matters because I use a Gott style tun. If I had a stainless
> steel tun I'd just put it on the burner to get the right temp. At the
> moment when my calculated strike temp doesn't hit the desired mark, I use
> boiling water to raise the temp. Which throws off all of the infusion
> amounts. So I use a laptop and tweak the numbers with each infusion. I
> still end up falling short so I know my issue is either a bad thermometer,
> bad tun thermal mass fudge factor, or bad calculation on the amount of water
> I'm actually using. I can verify two of those, but not the third.
>
> I have issues with this thermal mass number in ProMash. What are the units?
> What's the current temp of your tun? My guess is it's a fudge factor that
> isn't really based on the physics of heat transfer. More importantly,
> ProMash should give you a wizard or instructions on how to measure the
> thermal mass. For example, like bringing 10 gallons of water to 180F and
> dumping it in the tun, wait five minutes, and measure the temp of the water.
> That certainly could get a good measure of thermal mass, but how does that
> translate to this fudge factor number in ProMash?
As Denny mentioned, you can backtrack and figure it out with the stand
alone calculator (the number really *is* just a fudge factor). Or you
can just preheat your tun with a quart of boiling water, and just use
the standard calculator with no fudge factor -- you should be dead-on
every time. You may need to add a couple of degrees to the strike temp
if you spend a lot of time stirring as you dough in, but otherwise you
should be able to hit the correct temp nearly all the time.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 00:50:14
From: stencil
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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On 5 Aug 2006 03:58:50 -0700, smhoneydo@aol.com wrote:
> Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
>as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
>remaining figures throughout the program. My seat of the pants methods
>in the past have shown a level of inconsistency from batch to batch and
>I hope to improve on that. As you suggest trial and error can be
>revealing but it can be expensive as well. Thanks!
>
Here's a crude but good-enough scheme:
(Presumably we're talking about the thermal mass of your mash tun.)
- Position the tun on the surface and in the location, where it normally=
will
be during operations. Let it sit, dry, for an hour or so, so that its
temperature stabilizes at ambient air temperature. =20
- Measure the air temperature inside the dry tun using the same =
instrument
that you would use to measure the temperature of the mash. Record this.
- Weigh a two-gallon (or so) container. Bucket, pitcher, whatever; =
plastic is
better than metal but not critically so.
- Add hot tapwater to the container until its weight has increased by =
exactly
ten pounds. Measure this very carefully.
- Stir gently, using your usual mash-stirring tool and the same =
thermometer
used above, while monitoring the temperature.
- When the temperature of the hot water in the bucket has been stable for=
at
least thirty seconds, record it.
_ *Gently* pour the hot water into the tun. Splashing leaks heat to the =
air.
- Stir gently, using your usual mash-stirring tool and the same =
thermometer
used above, while monitoring the temperature.
- When the temperature of the hot water in the tun has been stable for at
least thirty seconds, record it.
- The drop in temperature of the water in the tun (degrees F) multiplied =
by
10, is the heat (BTU) absorbed by the thermal mass of the tun.
- Divide the number of BTU determined above by the rise in temperature of=
the
tun; that is, by the rest temperature of the hot water in the tun minus =
the
original air temperature. This number is the thermal mass of the tun in
pounds.
As a check you can play the same game with cold tapwater, or with =
different
masses of water. Your result cannot be any more precise than your =
original
measurements, so if your scale reads to the ounce, that's as close as you=
will
come to specifying the thermal mass.
In sum: A British Thermal Unit is the amount of heat required to change =
the
temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit.
stencil sends
=20
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 23:07:21
From: Scott Alfter
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In article <1154775530.832521.271160@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
<smhoneydo@aol.com > wrote:
>John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> On 4 Aug 2006 05:26:23 -0700, <smhoneydo@aol.com> wrote:
>> > Hey gang in an effort to fine tune my repeatablility of brews I want
>> > to get more imvolved with promash. I saw a post,I think it was a few
>> > months ago, that suggested if you arn't sure of what your thermal mass
>> > actually is to set a default figure in the program to a particular
>> > value.
>>
>> The only thing thermal mass really effects is the temp of the water
>> additions you need for an infusion mash. IMO, you don't really need to
>> enter this into Promash. After a couple batches, trial and error will
>> give you an idea of how much you need to bump the temps up (if any).
>
> Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
>as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
>remaining figures throughout the program.
I heat the strike water in the mash tun with a heatstick or two. This
eliminates the loss associated with pouring hot water into a
room-temperature mash tun, so I set the thermal mass to zero and get on with
brewing.
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:41:52
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Thermal Mass
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On 5 Aug 2006 03:58:50 -0700, <smhoneydo@aol.com > wrote:
>> The only thing thermal mass really effects is the temp of the water
>> additions you need for an infusion mash. IMO, you don't really need to
>> enter this into Promash. After a couple batches, trial and error will
>> give you an idea of how much you need to bump the temps up (if any).
>>
>> There shouldn't be anything else throughout the program that is effected.
>
>
>
> Well, this is one of the main reasons I want to attempt to be
> as accurate as possible. Nailing this figure will reflect in the
> remaining figures throughout the program.
Like what? I don't see what else thermal mass can effect.
> My seat of the pants methods
> in the past have shown a level of inconsistency from batch to batch and
> I hope to improve on that. As you suggest trial and error can be
> revealing but it can be expensive as well. Thanks!
I'm not sure how it's expensive. If you add your strike water and the
temp is slightly off, you just adjust it by adding cold/hot water until
it's right. It's not like the whole batch is a write off.
John.
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