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Date: 23 Jun 2006 05:07:26
From: John M
Subject: Steeping grains that require mashing
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In another thread, a recipe was posted containing Munich and wheat
malts. I understand that simple steeping will not extract any
fermentables from these types grains. Instead, mashing is necessary.
However, if I simply want to get the toasty flavor and aroma of Munich
malt, and the head retention benefits of wheat, isn't steeping good
enough? I am assuming that fermentables have nothing to do with the
flavor of Munich or the head retention proteins of wheat. Is this a
correct assumption? My fermentables would simply come from DME or LME.
Thanks,
John
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 09:29:10
From: John M
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 23 Jun 2006 05:07:26 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's not to say that a beer with starch in it is guaranteed to become
> infected, but it does increase the risk. Generally, it's recommended that
> you avoid this happening unless there's a specific reason for adding the
> starch.
>
> Beyond infection issues, starch also tends to make the beer really cloudy
> which you may or may not care about.
>
Are the starches soluble, or can it be expected they would settle out
and could theoretically be removed during racking. Any idea at what
temp the starch becomes insoluble, if at all. Thanks.
John
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 16:59:47
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On 23 Jun 2006 09:29:10 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> On 23 Jun 2006 05:07:26 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's not to say that a beer with starch in it is guaranteed to become
>> infected, but it does increase the risk. Generally, it's recommended that
>> you avoid this happening unless there's a specific reason for adding the
>> starch.
>>
>> Beyond infection issues, starch also tends to make the beer really cloudy
>> which you may or may not care about.
>>
>
> Are the starches soluble, or can it be expected they would settle out
> and could theoretically be removed during racking. Any idea at what
> temp the starch becomes insoluble, if at all. Thanks.
Grains contain both soluble and insoluble starches. I don't believe the
soluble ones that get into your wort will settle out.
John.
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 13:38:30
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On 23 Jun 2006 05:07:26 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com > wrote:
> In another thread, a recipe was posted containing Munich and wheat
> malts. I understand that simple steeping will not extract any
> fermentables from these types grains. Instead, mashing is necessary.
> However, if I simply want to get the toasty flavor and aroma of Munich
> malt, and the head retention benefits of wheat, isn't steeping good
> enough? I am assuming that fermentables have nothing to do with the
> flavor of Munich or the head retention proteins of wheat. Is this a
> correct assumption? My fermentables would simply come from DME or LME.
The problem is that grains which require mashing are that way because they
contain starch instead of sugar. Grains that only need to be steeped have
already had the starches converted to sugars, you just need to rinse them out.
You can just steep the grain that contains starches, and you'll probably get
some of the flavor components out of it, but what causes trouble is that you
now have starch in your wort. Generally (unless you're specifically making
the rare style that calls for it), this is not a good idea. Starch will
not be consumed by yeast, which will only ferment out sugars. However, there
are types of beer spoiling bacteria that do feed on the starches. Usually
in a beer, the idea is to get the yeast fermenting your wort and out
compete the bacteria. By the time the yeast are done, there is no food
left for bacteria to feed on. Once you introduce starches into the wort you
are giving the bacteria a food source in your beer that will not go away. The
yeast ignore it and leave it there to attract bacteria.
That's not to say that a beer with starch in it is guaranteed to become
infected, but it does increase the risk. Generally, it's recommended that
you avoid this happening unless there's a specific reason for adding the
starch.
Beyond infection issues, starch also tends to make the beer really cloudy
which you may or may not care about.
John.
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 08:03:07
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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John M <statepenn99@gmail.com > wrote:
> In another thread, a recipe was posted containing Munich and wheat
> malts. I understand that simple steeping will not extract any
> fermentables from these types grains. Instead, mashing is necessary.
> However, if I simply want to get the toasty flavor and aroma of Munich
> malt, and the head retention benefits of wheat, isn't steeping good
> enough? I am assuming that fermentables have nothing to do with the
> flavor of Munich or the head retention proteins of wheat. Is this a
> correct assumption? My fermentables would simply come from DME or LME.
>
No, you need to mash these grains. If you do not mash, you will release
starch into your wort which will make it cloudy and unstable [there is
bacteria out there that loves to spoils beer with starch in it]. It really is
important to mash. You can perform a partial mash easily enough. Crush the
munich and wheat malt and "steep" it in water at a ratio of 1-1/3 quarts per
pound of malt. You can use a strainer to strain after an hour [or less].
Make sure the temperature of the "steep" after you have added the grains is
somewhere between about 148F and perhaps 155F. It would be good to rinse the
grains with more hot water of no hotter than 170F and then add your extract
and water to volume.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 07:45:32
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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"John M" <statepenn99@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1151064446.501802.95420@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> In another thread, a recipe was posted containing Munich and wheat
> malts. I understand that simple steeping will not extract any
> fermentables from these types grains. Instead, mashing is necessary.
> However, if I simply want to get the toasty flavor and aroma of Munich
> malt, and the head retention benefits of wheat, isn't steeping good
> enough? I am assuming that fermentables have nothing to do with the
> flavor of Munich or the head retention proteins of wheat. Is this a
> correct assumption? My fermentables would simply come from DME or LME.
It would depend on how much grain your steeping and what temp you're
steeping at. If you steep at mash temps some conversion will be taking
place. If conversion doesn't happen then you'll have a greater effect on the
body and FG of the recipe the more grain you steep. I always do a mini-mash
in a separate pot on the stove with 1.5 - 2 quarts of water per pound of
grain, 2 - 4.5lbs depending on the recipe. It doesn't take that much extra
effort to hit mash temperature and hold it long enough while I sanitize my
gear and set up everything else for brew day.
Mark R
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 13:41:08
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:45:32 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net > wrote:
> If you steep at mash temps some conversion will be taking place.
Holding the grains at mash temps such that conversion takes place is called
mashing. ;)
Steeping implies that conversion does not occur.
John.
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 10:22:02
From: John M
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 23 Jun 2006 09:29:10 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> >> On 23 Jun 2006 05:07:26 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grains contain both soluble and insoluble starches. I don't believe the
> soluble ones that get into your wort will settle out.
>
>
Oh well. I geuss I will have to hope there are no infections with this
batch. Next batch, I will just go the same route as Mark. Thanks for
the responses.
John
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 17:41:41
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On 23 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com > wrote:
> Oh well. I geuss I will have to hope there are no infections with this
> batch. Next batch, I will just go the same route as Mark. Thanks for
> the responses.
You might want to at least consider doing a partial mash. It's not as
hard as you might think.
John.
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:07:47
From: John M
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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Next time, yes I will. But this batch was already in the primary when
I noticed the thread about having to mash Munich and wheat.
John
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 23 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0700, <statepenn99@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oh well. I geuss I will have to hope there are no infections with this
> > batch. Next batch, I will just go the same route as Mark. Thanks for
> > the responses.
>
> You might want to at least consider doing a partial mash. It's not as
> hard as you might think.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 19:50:56
From: neal
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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John M wrote:
> Next time, yes I will. But this batch was already in the primary when
> I noticed the thread about having to mash Munich and wheat.
I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 09:42:04
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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neal wrote:
> I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
>
> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
>
> Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
How do you control thge temp? Bad idea, IMO...
-------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 20:50:05
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us >:
>neal wrote:
>> I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
>>
>> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
>>
>> Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
>How do you control thge temp? Bad idea, IMO...
Yeah. A good drip coffeemaker runs at 200F or more. Even a
cheap one is probably in the 170's.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 08:25:51
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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Yes, of course... I'd change it from a steep to a mash...
Use 2.25 qt of water (1.5qt/lb) and hold at 145-150 for 30 min or so
then sparge at 165-170 then remove, add water, bring to boil, add
extract, boil, etc...
Dan Listermann wrote:
> There should be more than enough enzymes to convert those grains. The
> boiling part bothers me. I would steep it at 150 for a half hour or so and
> then remove the grains.
>
> Dan
>
> "brian@yahoo.com" <brian.sico@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151593344.667918.26860@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
> > wheat malt.
> >
> > The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
> > gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
> > the grain. "
> >
> > Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
> > described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
> >
> > My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
> > a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
> > row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
> > Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
> >
> > Scott Sellers wrote:
> >> Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us>:
> >>
> >>
> >> >neal wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
> >>
> >> >How do you control thge temp? Bad idea, IMO...
> >>
> >> Yeah. A good drip coffeemaker runs at 200F or more. Even a
> >> cheap one is probably in the 170's.
> >>
> >> Scott S
> >>
> >> --
> >> Scott Sellers
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 15:43:45
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On 29 Jun 2006 08:25:51 -0700, <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
> Yes, of course... I'd change it from a steep to a mash...
> Use 2.25 qt of water (1.5qt/lb) and hold at 145-150 for 30 min or so
> then sparge at 165-170 then remove, add water, bring to boil, add
> extract, boil, etc...
Sounds like a good plan. IMO, be a little careful on the sparge part. I've
found it's really easy to oversparge very small mashes like this. Be
conservative on the amount of sparge water you use, or just skip the
sparge completely and drain the liquid from the mini mash and just use
that. With only a couple lbs of grain, you're not relying on this for the
majority of your fermentable sugars so the efficiency you get shouldn't
make much difference. IMO, trying to sparge a lot in order to rinse out
all of the sugar from the grain isn't worth it.
John.
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 08:02:24
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
wheat malt.
The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
the grain. "
Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
Scott Sellers wrote:
> Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us>:
>
>
> >neal wrote:
>
> >> I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
> >>
> >> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
> >>
> >> Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
>
> >How do you control thge temp? Bad idea, IMO...
>
> Yeah. A good drip coffeemaker runs at 200F or more. Even a
> cheap one is probably in the 170's.
>
> Scott S
>
> --
> Scott Sellers
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 15:18:32
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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On 29 Jun 2006 08:02:24 -0700, <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
> wheat malt.
>
> The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
> gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
> the grain. "
>
> Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
> described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
You also don't want to get them anywhere near boiling. IMO, the
above instructions are wrong for several reasons.
> My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
> a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
> row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
> Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
I think both should contain enzymes. I think you'll be fine mashing
the munich together with the wheat. An extra 1 - 2 lbs of 2-row won't
hurt though, but I don't think it's completely necessary.
John.
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 11:17:30
From: Dan Listermann
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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There should be more than enough enzymes to convert those grains. The
boiling part bothers me. I would steep it at 150 for a half hour or so and
then remove the grains.
Dan
"brian@yahoo.com" <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1151593344.667918.26860@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
> wheat malt.
>
> The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
> gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
> the grain. "
>
> Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
> described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
>
> My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
> a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
> row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
> Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
>
> Scott Sellers wrote:
>> Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us>:
>>
>>
>> >neal wrote:
>>
>> >> I once read about a doing partial mashes with a cheap coffee maker:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/235coffee.html
>> >>
>> >> Odd... but might be fun to see how it turns out....
>>
>> >How do you control thge temp? Bad idea, IMO...
>>
>> Yeah. A good drip coffeemaker runs at 200F or more. Even a
>> cheap one is probably in the 170's.
>>
>> Scott S
>>
>> --
>> Scott Sellers
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 12:13:28
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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brian@yahoo.com <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
> wheat malt.
>
> The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
> gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
> the grain. "
>
> Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
> described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
>
> My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
> a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
> row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
> Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
>
Both Munich and Wheat are base malts and will convert. Munich is not usually
capable of converting much beyond itself though, but wheat usually has enough
enzymes to convert other non-malted grains. Having said that, you have only
indicated base malts here, so you should be good to go.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 10:31:31
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
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In the spirit of 'In for a penny, in for a pound', I've decided to
replace 2.5LB of X-Light DME with 4 Lb of 2 row in order to make this a
bit less mini of a mini-mash. By my calculations I will add 7 qt of
water to the 5.5 lb grain and then drain and batch sparge with 8 qt (2
gal). This will give me about a 3.5 gal runoff total which I'll add a
bit of water to in the end.
Just to verify... 2 row can substitute point for point for X-Light DME
as long as I factor in the P/P/G difference and the efficiency of the
mash (assuming 75% as a starting point)
I assume final flavor should remain about the same.
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> brian@yahoo.com <brian.sico@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm brewing a similar recipe that calls for 1lb munich malt and 1/2 lb
> > wheat malt.
> >
> > The recipe says to "Add the cracked Munich Malt and Wheat Malt to 2
> > gals of cold water and bring to a boil. When the boiling starts, remove
> > the grain. "
> >
> > Obviously this would fall into steeping rather than mashing which -as
> > described above- is not proper handling of these malts.
> >
> > My question is... As long as I follow a true mashing procedure and do
> > a mini mash on these grains, will they convert? Or do I need some 2
> > row for enzymes for the conversion. I'm not sure if Munich and/or
> > Wheat malt bring the proper enzymes to the table to do the conversion.
> >
>
> Both Munich and Wheat are base malts and will convert. Munich is not usually
> capable of converting much beyond itself though, but wheat usually has enough
> enzymes to convert other non-malted grains. Having said that, you have only
> indicated base malts here, so you should be good to go.
>
> --
> Thomas T. Veldhouse
> Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 17:53:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Steeping grains that require mashing
|
On 29 Jun 2006 10:31:31 -0700, <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
> In the spirit of 'In for a penny, in for a pound', I've decided to
> replace 2.5LB of X-Light DME with 4 Lb of 2 row in order to make this a
> bit less mini of a mini-mash. By my calculations I will add 7 qt of
> water to the 5.5 lb grain and then drain and batch sparge with 8 qt (2
> gal). This will give me about a 3.5 gal runoff total which I'll add a
> bit of water to in the end.
>
> Just to verify... 2 row can substitute point for point for X-Light DME
> as long as I factor in the P/P/G difference and the efficiency of the
> mash (assuming 75% as a starting point)
Yes, but 75% efficiency is good for a full grain mash. IMO, I'd assume
you'll get less than that on your first attempt. If you want to get really
fancy, do the mini mash first and take a SG reading. Then calculate how
much extract you'll need to hit your target gravity. That way it won't
matter what your efficiency is, you'll adjust for it on the fly. If you
don't want to get that fancy, then IMO, I'd probably assume a 65%
efficiency for the first time.
> I assume final flavor should remain about the same.
It all depends on what was used to make the extract. Substituting grain
for extract is always a bit of guesswork regarding the flavor. IMO
though, if it's "light" DME then 2-row should be close enough. All bets
are off if you're talking about "amber" or "dark" extract.
John.
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