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Date: 13 Aug 2006 19:13:25
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
days. Nothing is happening.
I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
I got some cider that did indeed have sodium benzoate in it (only one
jug was marked that way, and it wasn't used in the cider, but I don't
have any way of knowing which ones are and which aren't because they
have no real labeling system.
Sigh...
So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives killed
the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait another day or so?
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 08:55:01
From: Pj
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Pj wrote:
> > Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > > Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> > > days. Nothing is happening.
> > >
> > > I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
> > > water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
> > >
> > Cathy,
> >
> > Did the water have chlorine in it?
>
> Yes it did.... it was water straight out of my tap. Is that enough to
> kill yeast?
>
> Cathy Weeks
Cathy:
Chlorine is put in drinking water to kill microorganisms. Yeast are
microoganisms. Therefore chlorine in tap water will kill yeast. To
what extent it killed all of your yeast, I have no idea, but it did
kill some.
If you used cold tap water it may have caused your yeast to go dormant
for a while; but they usually don't stay dormant for so long. If you
put the yeast in the water and heated it iin the microwave you killed
the yeast; to what extent you killed all of them, I have no idea, but
you killed a bunch.
Again, I would test a small amount of the cider with a known good
yeast. If the yeast thrive in the test I would rule out the cider as
the problem and try another batch of yeast. I know this sucks but
sometimes it happens.
Cathy, if you get the urge to ferment things, which you obviously have,
for what it's worth, I would suggest reading up on yeast, they are
living things and they like to be treated with TLC. Most people treat
them like molds, which they are, but don't tell your yeast that. :-)
Best of luck,
Pj
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 13:01:35
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Pj wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
>
>>Pj wrote:
>>
>>>Cathy Weeks wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
>>>>days. Nothing is happening.
>>>>
>>>>I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
>>>>water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Cathy,
>>>
>>>Did the water have chlorine in it?
>>
>>Yes it did.... it was water straight out of my tap. Is that enough to
>>kill yeast?
>>
>>Cathy Weeks
>
>
> Cathy:
>
> Chlorine is put in drinking water to kill microorganisms. Yeast are
> microoganisms. Therefore chlorine in tap water will kill yeast. To
> what extent it killed all of your yeast, I have no idea, but it did
> kill some.
>
In general, the chlorine in municipal tap water is just enough to
maintain what is termed "residual disinfection", up to around 4 mg/l for
chlorine -- but in practice tap water carries far less than this
unless there is suspiscion of possible breaches or other problems with
the water system (as in the aftermath of a hurracaine, for instance).
The larger doses are genrally reserved for use at the treatment plant
itself with source water.
All this means that under most circumstances, the chlorine in regular
tap water will not make much of a dent in the population of cells
contained in a dry yeast packet -- a very large population indeed, on
the order of 10-20 billion cells/gram.
The OPs problems are more likely caused by either a bad packet of yeast,
or possibly the presence of agents in the cider used to retard
fermentation or microbial growth, such as sulfites. Or, as you
mentioned, maybe she did something strange, like microwave the yeast slurry.
In either case (especially for a gallon of cider) there's not likely any
need to rehydrate anyway. Just sprinkle the yeast into the must, mix it
in and off you go.
I'm not a cider maker (I'm a brewer exclusively), so take all this for
what it's worth. But I have used, cultured, stored and even
photographed yeast (http://www.swampgas.com/microscopy/yeast/index.html)
for the last 20 years or so.
Cheers -- m
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 07:02:40
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Pj wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> > days. Nothing is happening.
> >
> > I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
> > water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
> >
> Cathy,
>
> Did the water have chlorine in it?
Yes it did.... it was water straight out of my tap. Is that enough to
kill yeast?
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 09:24:45
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Pj wrote:
>
>>Cathy Weeks wrote:
>>
>>>Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
>>>days. Nothing is happening.
>>>
>>>I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
>>>water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
>>>
>>
>>Cathy,
>>
>>Did the water have chlorine in it?
>
>
> Yes it did.... it was water straight out of my tap. Is that enough to
> kill yeast?
>
> Cathy Weeks
>
Unless you have REALLY highly chlorinated water (like your water comes
from a public swimming pool), almost certainly not.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 22:12:58
From: Pj
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> days. Nothing is happening.
>
> I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
> water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
>
Cathy,
Did the water have chlorine in it?
Is it possible to take a small amount of the cider and test it with a
known live yeast? I would take about 1/4 cup of the cider and add a
1/2 tsp of bread yeast and see if any activity takes place.
Best of luck,
Pj
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 14:11:35
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Denny Conn wrote:
> >
> > So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives killed
> > the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait another day or so?
> Did you use any yeast nutirent?
Yes.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 12:04:24
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
>
> Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> days. Nothing is happening.
>
> I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
> water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
>
> I got some cider that did indeed have sodium benzoate in it (only one
> jug was marked that way, and it wasn't used in the cider, but I don't
> have any way of knowing which ones are and which aren't because they
> have no real labeling system.
>
> Sigh...
>
> So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives killed
> the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait another day or so?
Did you use any yeast nutirent?
-------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 11:23:27
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Pj wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > Pj wrote:
> > > Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > > > Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> > > > days. Nothing is happening.
> > > >
> > > > I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in 90 degree
> > > > water just like it said to, and then pitched it into my gallon jug.
> > > >
> > > Cathy,
> > >
> > > Did the water have chlorine in it?
> >
> > Yes it did.... it was water straight out of my tap. Is that enough to
> > kill yeast?
> >
> > Cathy Weeks
>
> Cathy:
>
> Chlorine is put in drinking water to kill microorganisms. Yeast are
> microoganisms. Therefore chlorine in tap water will kill yeast. To
> what extent it killed all of your yeast, I have no idea, but it did
> kill some.
>
> If you used cold tap water it may have caused your yeast to go dormant
> for a while; but they usually don't stay dormant for so long. If you
> put the yeast in the water and heated it iin the microwave you killed
> the yeast; to what extent you killed all of them, I have no idea, but
> you killed a bunch.
I used warm tap water that I adjusted to 90 degrees right out of the
tap. No microwaving, No shocking it with colder water. In this case,
the only possibilities are chlorine and the possible (seems likely)
presence of Sodium Benzoate. I used a bleach water solution on my
carboy, but rinsed it pretty thoroughly prior to adding the cider.
I'm assuming that the chlorine probably *did* kill some of the yeast,
but it was pretty quickly dumped into the cider, where the chlorine
would have been further diluted.
Hmmm...
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 19:58:02
From: Derric
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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> I used warm tap water that I adjusted to 90 degrees right out of the
> tap. ...
I do this all the time and never have a problem. I usually don't even
use a thermometer, but just use the "baby bottle on the wrist" trick
... just get a slightly "warm" temperature on the inside of my wrist.
I don't think typical chlorine levels in tap water are an issue.
Derric
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 22:03:50
From: Andy McKellar
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Derric wrote:
>>I used warm tap water that I adjusted to 90 degrees right out of the
>>tap. ...
>
>
> I do this all the time and never have a problem. I usually don't even
> use a thermometer, but just use the "baby bottle on the wrist" trick
> ... just get a slightly "warm" temperature on the inside of my wrist.
>
> I don't think typical chlorine levels in tap water are an issue.
>
> Derric
>
Agreed. I have used unfiltered, unboiled tap water so many times in my
beer I couldn't even guess, and have never experienced this problem.
(Others, yes... ;-); but never this one.)
--
-- Andy McKellar
Dallas, TX
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 17:49:33
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives killed
> the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait another day or so?
I hear sorbates are the preservatives that give booze yeast trouble.
You should ask the winemakers about this because some have played with
juices with preservatives. I've done one myself that had a preservative
in it and it managed to ferment. I think is was some cranberry juice.
Tap water by itself can't whack the yeast, but I couldn't speak for the
one-two combo with the preservatives. Give it a little rocking and see
if some bubbles come loose. Maybe it's just going slow.
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 22:07:10
From:
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Dick Adams wrote:
> I did toss out 5 gallons of fermented
> molasses - the stuff was putrid.
Too bad you live in the U.S. or you would have had the beginings of a
nice rum with a bit of distilling and aging. On the island of
Martinique I was allowed to taste a batch in fermentation, 2 weeks old,
5, 10, 25, and 50 years old. They swear they used the same recipe
since the 1700's. The new stuf was HORRID! Disgusting! the 5 and 10
year were ok, the 25 year was very nice, and the 50 year was exquisite.
God I wish I had $100 for a bottle of rum back when I was 23. No,
$500 for 5 bottles. One of them may have survived this long then, but
I doubt it.
>
> Dick
Bryan
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 04:09:30
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net > wrote:
> Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> days. Nothing is happening.
The only way to know nothing is happening is to take hydrometer
readings.
> I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in
> 90 degree water just like it said to, and then pitched it into
> my gallon jug.
90F (32.2C) is a very high temperature for fermenting anything.
Were dis it say to do that?
> I got some cider that did indeed have sodium benzoate in it
> (only one jug was marked that way, and it wasn't used in the
> cider, but I don't have any way of knowing which ones are
> and which aren't because they have no real labeling system.
On the single occasion I made cider, I used frozen apple
concentrate that had 'no preservatives' on the label.
> Sigh...
>
> So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives
> killed the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait
> another day or so?
Wait until you need the jug for someting else. Even then see
if is drinkable before tossing it out. Also if you can't rack
it, decant it.
I have a braggot made with sweet sorghum syrup that will age
10 years, until the carboy for something else, or we move -
whichever comes first. I did toss out 5 gallons of fermented
molasses - the stuff was putrid.
Dick
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 06:46:27
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Dick Adams wrote:
> Cathy Weeks <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net> wrote:
>
> > Ok... I started a batch of cider Thursday night. It has been 3 full
> > days. Nothing is happening.
>
> The only way to know nothing is happening is to take hydrometer
> readings.
>
> > I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in
> > 90 degree water just like it said to, and then pitched it into
> > my gallon jug.
>
> 90F (32.2C) is a very high temperature for fermenting anything.
> Were dis it say to do that?
On the packet of yeast. It said to disolve the yeast in 90-100 degree
water, then to pitch it.
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 14:03:49
From: Joel
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net > wrote:
>Dick Adams wrote:
>> Cathy Weeks <kathyspam@weeksfamily.net> wrote:
>> > I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, and I disolved it in
>> > 90 degree water just like it said to, and then pitched it into
>> > my gallon jug.
>>
>> 90F (32.2C) is a very high temperature for fermenting anything.
>> Were dis it say to do that?
>
>On the packet of yeast. It said to disolve the yeast in 90-100 degree
>water, then to pitch it.
Yes, the people at Lallemand recommend rehydrating
yeast at temperatures higher than one typically ferments.
Since they're the yeast experts, I trust them to know of
what they speak.
That said, it still works to just add the dry yeast
to the wort (at your desired fermenting temperature). If
you're worried about a somewhat less than optimal yeast
survival rate, pitch two packets. Or do what I try to
do-- make up a small starter the day before brewing and
pitch directly into the starter. That way you get the
peace of mind that your yeast isn't completely dead and
that any potential diminished cell count due to lack of
rehydrating is mitigated by the cell growth in the starter.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 08:38:44
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy Weeks wrote:
> So when do I give up on the cider and assume the preservatives killed
> the yeast? Assume it's dead and pitch it, or wait another day or so?
Well, I gave it a few hours short of a full week. I started it late
last Thursday night, and just now dumped it out - No color had ever
settled out of it, and I even dipped a finger in it to taste, and
unsurprisingly, it tasted like room-temperature apple juice - still
sweet and everything. No hint of fermentation or even acetification.
Tonight I'm starting a new batch with stuff I know to be unpreserved.
Sigh...
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 08:17:26
From: Cathy Weeks
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Cathy,
>
> Since the thread's still going, and I didn't see a post from you in
> rec.crafts.winemaking matching "sodium benzoate," I searched for you.
> It looks like the stuff is used as a stabilizer in wine. That means
> it's used to shut up yeast and prevent them from reproducing, ultimately
> killing them off. It's the same as having sorbates to keep the wine at
> a certain gravity/sweetness.
>
> You're likely screwed if you try to ferment that, unless you toss in a
> huge yeast culture that can do the job in one hit. You certainly won't
> get that with a packet by itself. I really don't know how feasible it it.
I didn't post over at winemaking, because I already knew that if the
batch contained it, that it wouldn't work. That's been the problem all
along - that since not all the jugs of cider were labeled, that I
didn't *know* which were preserved and which weren't.
I sort of figured that there might be other problems causing the delay
- slow to start yeast, dead yeast, etc. If it's the latter, was there
something *I* did that caused a problem (apparently not - it was either
dead to start, or there were preservatives).
It's now been a full week, with no sign of activity. I waited the
extra days just in case, but it's dead. I'm tossing it out this
evening, and trying again with some unpreserved stuff I got from Trader
Joes. I'm avoiding my local source for now, since they've got no
reasonable labeling, and I'm waiting for them to sell of their
preserved cider (they don't use preservative now, this stuff was from
last year, and had been frozen).
The only reason I'm considering messing with the local orchard, after
their half-assed operation spoiled a batch of my cder, is that I've now
made the boiled cider reduction twice -once from their stuff (which
presumably has preservatives, so is unsuitable for fermentation) and
once from Trader Joe's unfiltered, unpreserved, but pasturized apple
juice, and the stuff made from Trader Joe's is nowhere NEAR as good as
the stuff made from the orchard cider.
I may also have other options - There's three near me, and one only
sells preserved stuff, another (the previously mentioned one) sells it
unpreserved, but has some preservatives in at least one older batch),
and there's a final one I haven't tried.
Cathy Weeks
Cathy Weeks
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 06:50:30
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: So, when do I give up on this batch?
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Cathy,
Since the thread's still going, and I didn't see a post from you in
rec.crafts.winemaking matching "sodium benzoate," I searched for you.
It looks like the stuff is used as a stabilizer in wine. That means
it's used to shut up yeast and prevent them from reproducing, ultimately
killing them off. It's the same as having sorbates to keep the wine at
a certain gravity/sweetness.
You're likely screwed if you try to ferment that, unless you toss in a
huge yeast culture that can do the job in one hit. You certainly won't
get that with a packet by itself. I really don't know how feasible it it.
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