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Main
Date: 25 Jun 2006 22:13:23
From: cyclista brewer
Subject: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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Fellow Brewers,
While researching Cooper's Brewery, I read something interesting on the
web site of their US importer Cascadia Importers (check out the text at
http://www.cascadiabrew.com/intermediate.asp). I quote here "The basic
premise of Steve's article is that following old methods cannot help
but create beers that are dark in color and very sweet in flavor. I
like the example of cooking white granulated sugar. Try this out: Take
a cup of white sugar, put it on a cookie sheet and bake it for 5
minutes at 400'F. The sugar comes out melting, dark, sticky and
considerably sweeter. In short, it is caramelized. Just like what
happens when you put all the ingredients for 5 gallons of beer into 1-2
gallons of water and boil it for 60 minutes." I haven't been able to
lay my hands on the article (Brew Your Own Magazine Vol. 8, no. 6, pg
40), however, one can infer that Mr. Bader suggests boiling a malt
extract wort for 60 minutes is not necessary and unadvised. Further
down in the above referenced web page the instructions read: "After 30
minutes turn off the heat and remove your pot from the heating element.
Mix in the malt concentrates, additional sugars and/or Coopers Beer Kit
called for in the recipe. Be sure to mix very well, ensuring that none
of the ingredients are lurking, unmixed, at the bottom of your pot.
After mixing, cool your wort to <120-130=B0F" ....
Has anyone read the above article and changed your methodology as a
result? Does anyone know if the article is posted online somewhere?
Happy brewing, Robert
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 22:22:25
From: Doc Suds
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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You can find a summary of Bader's article here:
http://webtrolley.org/mivastore/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BaderBrewandWine&Product_Code=36955&Category_Code=
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 11:43:42
From:
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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> The method I use is to bring the plain water to a boil in the pot. Then
> turn off the heat and add in the extract. Stir like mad until you are sure
> that all of the extract is disolved. Then stir some more because you
> probably haven't stirred enough yet. The biggest issue is that when you
> add the extract, it is very difficult to get it to thoroughly disolve and
> it tends to sink to the bottom and sit against the burner. Once everything
> has been really well stirred, then turn the heat back on and bring it
> back up to a boil. IMO, the keys are having the heat off when you add the
> extract and making sure it is well disolve before turning the heat back on.
I agree, this is the same thing I do, but during the last 15 minutes.
> IMO, this is not a good idea. Yes, boiling hops in plain water will
> probably increase your utilization, but boiling hops in plain water will
> also extract a lot of other things from the hops that you don't want. Similar
> to grains, hops also contain tannins. Boiling them in water where the pH is
> much higher than it would be if you boiled it in wort, will cause you to
> end up with a lot of harsh flavors and astringency. Boiling hops in plain
> water is basically the same thing as oversparging grains.
Good info, about having a higher pH and extracting tanins from hops,
along with the astringent and harsh flavors. Do you have any links to
studies on this? So far, my results have been ok. Have you had these
results?
> If you are really having a lot of problems with your extract darkening while
> doing partial boils, IMO a much better solution would be to move up to
> full boils rather than trying to shortcut the boil process. You can get a
> turkey fryer kit with an AL or SS pot big enough for full boils for
> relatively cheap at most hardware stores.
I don't do partial boils. I personally have a propane burner and
aluminum pot.
And I have in the past had darkening issues.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:58:57
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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On 26 Jun 2006 11:43:42 -0700, <jlkeeney@gmail.com > wrote:
>> IMO, this is not a good idea. Yes, boiling hops in plain water will
>> probably increase your utilization, but boiling hops in plain water will
>> also extract a lot of other things from the hops that you don't want. Similar
>> to grains, hops also contain tannins. Boiling them in water where the pH is
>> much higher than it would be if you boiled it in wort, will cause you to
>> end up with a lot of harsh flavors and astringency. Boiling hops in plain
>> water is basically the same thing as oversparging grains.
>
> Good info, about having a higher pH and extracting tanins from hops,
> along with the astringent and harsh flavors. Do you have any links to
> studies on this? So far, my results have been ok. Have you had these
> results?
No links bookmarked, but I've definitely seen info on it on the web when
I was researching it. This probably isn't the answer you are looking for,
but you should be able to find info on it by googling.
>> If you are really having a lot of problems with your extract darkening while
>> doing partial boils, IMO a much better solution would be to move up to
>> full boils rather than trying to shortcut the boil process. You can get a
>> turkey fryer kit with an AL or SS pot big enough for full boils for
>> relatively cheap at most hardware stores.
>
> I don't do partial boils. I personally have a propane burner and
> aluminum pot.
> And I have in the past had darkening issues.
IMO, doing a full boil extract batch shouldn't cause any significant
darkening. As long as the extract is thoroughly disolved, it should be
no different than doing an AG batch. At that point, the worts should
be identical.
Extract itself does tend to come out of the can a little dark due to
reactions when the manufacturer boils off the water to create the
extract, but there's nothing you can do about that other than using the
lightest extract you can find.
John.
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 00:40:26
From: QD Steve
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnea0bmp.61o.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On 26 Jun 2006 11:43:42 -0700, <jlkeeney@gmail.com> wrote:
> John.
John,
with reference to unwanted compounds being extracted from hops boiled in
water, especially tannins, you stated that a high pH is the cause. Is this
the only factor? I ask because if it is, then acidifying the water the hops
are boiled in should eliminate the tannin extraction. My gut feeling though
is that there is more to this than just pH and there are probably other
interactions between the hops and other compounds in the malt.
I find this an intersting subject because I really sense that hops are
responsible for more unwanted flavours in beer than most homebrewers
realise. As an experiment, the last few beers I have made, I have been
adding hop extract to the secondary for the bittering. Flavour and aroma
hops have been added as usual near the end of the boil. I have noticed a
distinct improvement to my beer. It does not need as much aging/lagering and
has a much cleaner finish.The flavour and aroma hops shine through better as
well. Of course YMMV.
Other factors in using hops at bittering are (1) adding small amounts of
high alpha hops can add a harsh bitterness which requires long aging to
mellow (2) using larger amounts of low alpha hops can add a 'cooked
vegetable' like flavour to the beer (not the same as DMS) because of the
large amount of leafy/petal material that is boiled for an hour or so. It is
these factors that prompted me to experiment with hop extract and to date I
would say that the results are very good.
Comments?
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 14:44:29
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:26 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnea0bmp.61o.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>> On 26 Jun 2006 11:43:42 -0700, <jlkeeney@gmail.com> wrote:
>> John.
>
> John,
> with reference to unwanted compounds being extracted from hops boiled in
> water, especially tannins, you stated that a high pH is the cause. Is this
> the only factor? I ask because if it is, then acidifying the water the hops
> are boiled in should eliminate the tannin extraction. My gut feeling though
> is that there is more to this than just pH and there are probably other
> interactions between the hops and other compounds in the malt.
As I understand it, the pH is the main issue. However, I do not know if there
are others (SG for example). I don't know how close of a comparison you can
draw between grains and hops (they both can extract tannins, although there
may be other significant chemical differences). However, with grains I know
that a lot of it also depends on temperature as well. For instance the pH
is a big factor when oversparging the grains and extracting tannins, but
on the other hand boiling grains in the wort (where the pH should be fine)
is also known to extract tannins. It's possible (although I can't say for
sure) that you're always going to extract some tannins from boiling hops, but
that it would be worse in plain water because of the pH.
> I find this an intersting subject because I really sense that hops are
> responsible for more unwanted flavours in beer than most homebrewers
> realise. As an experiment, the last few beers I have made, I have been
> adding hop extract to the secondary for the bittering. Flavour and aroma
> hops have been added as usual near the end of the boil. I have noticed a
> distinct improvement to my beer. It does not need as much aging/lagering and
> has a much cleaner finish.The flavour and aroma hops shine through better as
> well. Of course YMMV.
> Other factors in using hops at bittering are (1) adding small amounts of
> high alpha hops can add a harsh bitterness which requires long aging to
> mellow (2) using larger amounts of low alpha hops can add a 'cooked
> vegetable' like flavour to the beer (not the same as DMS) because of the
> large amount of leafy/petal material that is boiled for an hour or so. It is
> these factors that prompted me to experiment with hop extract and to date I
> would say that the results are very good.
Another factor in the quality of the bitterness you get from the hops, in
addition to the alpha acids, is the cohumulone level. Obviously, more
alpha acids will give you more bitterness and less alpha acids will give
you less bitterness. However, what doesn't tend to be talked about very
often is that the cohumulone level will effect the harshness/smoothness of
the bitterness that you get. That's why substituting one hop type for another
and adjusting the amount based on the AA% doesn't give you the exact same
beer. IE, there is a difference between using a high AA hop and substituting
for an equivalent amount of a low AA hop. Generally, the high AA hops also
have a high cohumulone, which is what gives you the harsh bitterness that
requires longer aging.
The most efficient use of AA and smoothest bitterness would come from a high
AA and low cohumulone hop.
John.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 10:28:53
From:
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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I personally have had bad luck with scorching my extract syrup, and
ending up with an English bitter that looked like a porter, and was way
too sweet.
I have started adding extract during the last 15 minutes of my boil.
The color I get now is close to what it should be. Do keep in mind
what that article mentions at the bottom. You will get increased hop
extraction while boiling water and hops alone for 45 minutes. My Wheat
Ale came out like a Wheat IPA therfirst time I did this.
Jerry
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:06:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Seeking comments re., Steven Bader's "Boil the Hops, Not the Extract"
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On 26 Jun 2006 10:28:53 -0700, <jlkeeney@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> I personally have had bad luck with scorching my extract syrup, and
> ending up with an English bitter that looked like a porter, and was way
> too sweet.
The method I use is to bring the plain water to a boil in the pot. Then
turn off the heat and add in the extract. Stir like mad until you are sure
that all of the extract is disolved. Then stir some more because you
probably haven't stirred enough yet. The biggest issue is that when you
add the extract, it is very difficult to get it to thoroughly disolve and
it tends to sink to the bottom and sit against the burner. Once everything
has been really well stirred, then turn the heat back on and bring it
back up to a boil. IMO, the keys are having the heat off when you add the
extract and making sure it is well disolve before turning the heat back on.
This won't eliminate all darkening, but it should help a lot.
> I have started adding extract during the last 15 minutes of my boil.
> The color I get now is close to what it should be. Do keep in mind
> what that article mentions at the bottom. You will get increased hop
> extraction while boiling water and hops alone for 45 minutes. My Wheat
> Ale came out like a Wheat IPA therfirst time I did this.
IMO, this is not a good idea. Yes, boiling hops in plain water will
probably increase your utilization, but boiling hops in plain water will
also extract a lot of other things from the hops that you don't want. Similar
to grains, hops also contain tannins. Boiling them in water where the pH is
much higher than it would be if you boiled it in wort, will cause you to
end up with a lot of harsh flavors and astringency. Boiling hops in plain
water is basically the same thing as oversparging grains.
If you are really having a lot of problems with your extract darkening while
doing partial boils, IMO a much better solution would be to move up to
full boils rather than trying to shortcut the boil process. You can get a
turkey fryer kit with an AL or SS pot big enough for full boils for
relatively cheap at most hardware stores.
John.
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