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Date: 26 Jun 2006 11:43:09
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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So I am in the process of getting a large chest freezer. I already have
a temp controller waiting for it.
I have a large 12 gallon food grade bucket type fermenter that I use for
a primary and two 5 gallon glass carboys that I used to secondary in.
Five gallon food grade buckets with lids are free to me. So my question is.
If I keep my freezer at say 60F, how long can I leave batches in there
in the 5 gallon food grade buckets, as a tertiary, before moving to kegs
and force carbonating?
If it is sealed air tight in a food grade bucket is there a risk of it
going bad for any reason? If so, how long can I go without risking this?
Ryan
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 15:36:26
From: Richard Kaszeta
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us > writes:
> If I keep my freezer at say 60F, how long can I leave batches in there
> in the 5 gallon food grade buckets, as a tertiary, before moving to
> kegs and force carbonating?
Considering that I've kept lagers, koelschs, and even a few ales in my
well room at 55F for entire seasons before bottling with no ill
effects, I'd say "months".
--
Richard W Kaszeta
rich@kaszeta.org
http://www.kaszeta.org/rich
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 13:54:23
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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Richard Kaszeta wrote:
> Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us> writes:
>> If I keep my freezer at say 60F, how long can I leave batches in there
>> in the 5 gallon food grade buckets, as a tertiary, before moving to
>> kegs and force carbonating?
>
> Considering that I've kept lagers, koelschs, and even a few ales in my
> well room at 55F for entire seasons before bottling with no ill
> effects, I'd say "months".
>
Cool, that was the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I tend to brew
every weekend for a month or six weeks and then not at all for another
six weeks. So that would afford me the ability to brew a ton and use it
up as the thirst presents itself.
Ryan
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 13:35:57
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I'd guess months at least. The only issue I think you'll run into is the
> oxygen permeability of the plastic buckets. If you decide that you want to
> do a really long tertiary, it might be a better idea to use the buckets
> as your secondary and the carboys as your tertiary. Or, just leave them
> in the carboy secondary for aging instead of using a tertiary (this is
> what I do).
If the buckets are kept in a (mostly airtight) temperature controlled
freezer, and there are other fermenters in there actively fermenting, I
think it's safe to bet that the atmosphere in the freezer is mostly
CO2, and very little oxygen.
I bet buckets of beer kept under such conditions would show less signs
of oxidation over time than a bucket sitting out in the open.
Interesting opportunity to try an experiment!
Scott
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 09:58:29
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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"Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com > wrote in message
>
> If the buckets are kept in a (mostly airtight) temperature controlled
> freezer, and there are other fermenters in there actively fermenting, I
> think it's safe to bet that the atmosphere in the freezer is mostly
> CO2, and very little oxygen.
If it's a primary I'd say that's a safe bet as long as he doesn't open it up
very often. There are several post from brewers who have bent over into
their freezers and kept there heads in there too long. I wouldn't want to be
lifting or carrying a glass carboy when the CO2 hit me. :-o
He didn't say how big a freezer he's getting. After a couple of kegs and a
primary there may not be a whole mess of room for several secondaries or
tertiaries.
Mark R
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 18:41:25
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:29 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net > wrote:
>
> "Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com> wrote in message
>>
>> If the buckets are kept in a (mostly airtight) temperature controlled
>> freezer, and there are other fermenters in there actively fermenting, I
>> think it's safe to bet that the atmosphere in the freezer is mostly
>> CO2, and very little oxygen.
>
> If it's a primary I'd say that's a safe bet as long as he doesn't open it up
> very often. There are several post from brewers who have bent over into
> their freezers and kept there heads in there too long. I wouldn't want to be
> lifting or carrying a glass carboy when the CO2 hit me. :-o
That may or may not work. Having a high concentration of CO2 in the fridge
doesn't effect the amount of oxygen that is in there. The only way that
the CO2 will effect the amount of air is if you are creating so much off
gassing of CO2 during fermentation that it is physically blowing past
the seals of the door and pushing the oxygen out. This is how the CO2 from
fermentation purges oxygen from the headspace of a carboy/bucket. I don't
know if it will be strong enough to have the same effect on the much larger
freezer.
I guess it's possible, but it sounds like somewhat of a stretch.
John.
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 10:26:34
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
>
> That may or may not work. Having a high concentration of CO2 in the
fridge
> doesn't effect the amount of oxygen that is in there. The only way that
> the CO2 will effect the amount of air is if you are creating so much off
> gassing of CO2 during fermentation that it is physically blowing past
> the seals of the door and pushing the oxygen out. This is how the CO2
from
> fermentation purges oxygen from the headspace of a carboy/bucket. I don't
> know if it will be strong enough to have the same effect on the much
larger
> freezer.
Check with any Firefighters you might know, CO2 and O2 don't like to
coexist. I have many years of training and more real experience with
shipboard fires than I really ever wanted and CO2 in an enclosed space is a
very real danger.
I would guess that the amount of CO2 produced by just one 5 gal batch can be
measured in mucho many cubic feet. You are right about a fridge as the CO2
will pour out the bottom every time you open the door but the OP said he was
getting a chest freezer Unless the seals are tight enough to pressurize the
inside of the chest the gas has to go somewhere and CO2 being the heavier,
the O2 and air will go out and over the top.
While I believe that CO2 build-up is possible and enough of a hazard to at
the least be aware of it, it's not something to panic over. I figure that
just opening the lid on the chest freezer with any force will stir up enough
air to lessen any hazard. Unless of course, somebody plans to go freezer
diving. :-)
Mark R
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 15:58:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:26:34 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net > wrote:
> Unless the seals are tight enough to pressurize the
> inside of the chest the gas has to go somewhere and CO2 being the heavier,
> the O2 and air will go out and over the top.
That will happen initially, if you are creating enough CO2 to physically
push the O2 out of the fridge/freezer (which is what I said). However,
long term a CO2 "blanket" will not prevent O2 from filling back in. Given
time for the gasses to mix, the presence of CO2 will not prevent O2
from showing up.
The idea of CO2 being heavier and forming a blanket is only valid during
the initial gas production. The O2 is going to try to get back into
the fridge/freezer again (it will ignore the presence of CO2, see partial
pressure gas law) and given some time to "settle", they will mix again.
Whether you let gas in by opening the door, or it slowly works its way back
in around the door, it will get back in. As far as the O2 is concerned,
there is a vacuum in the fridge that it is trying to fill.
Theoretically, if you really wanted to create a zero O2 environment inside
your fridge/freezer, as someone else mentioned, you'd need to completely seal
the entire thing and put an airlock on top. Even then, an airlock doesn't
really prevent gasses from moving back into your container, it just slows
them down. An airlock is more like a "bacteria lock" than it is an actual
"air lock".
Over long term storage, it won't really make any difference if your
fermenter is inside a fridge/freezer versus being out in the room with
regards to oxygen exposure.
John.
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 07:58:02
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnea2v1t.bc1.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:29 -0500, <marknorayspam@noev1spam.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Scott L" <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> If the buckets are kept in a (mostly airtight) temperature controlled
> >> freezer, and there are other fermenters in there actively fermenting, I
> >> think it's safe to bet that the atmosphere in the freezer is mostly
> >> CO2, and very little oxygen.
> >
> > If it's a primary I'd say that's a safe bet as long as he doesn't open
it up
> > very often. There are several post from brewers who have bent over into
> > their freezers and kept there heads in there too long. I wouldn't want
to be
> > lifting or carrying a glass carboy when the CO2 hit me. :-o
>
> That may or may not work. Having a high concentration of CO2 in the
fridge
> doesn't effect the amount of oxygen that is in there. The only way that
> the CO2 will effect the amount of air is if you are creating so much off
> gassing of CO2 during fermentation that it is physically blowing past
> the seals of the door and pushing the oxygen out. This is how the CO2
from
> fermentation purges oxygen from the headspace of a carboy/bucket. I don't
> know if it will be strong enough to have the same effect on the much
larger
> freezer.
>
> I guess it's possible, but it sounds like somewhat of a stretch.
When I had 2 primaries going in my freezer recently, it would put a
match out quickly. I think it's pretty effective.
Bob
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:53:26
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:09 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us > wrote:
> So I am in the process of getting a large chest freezer. I already have
> a temp controller waiting for it.
>
> I have a large 12 gallon food grade bucket type fermenter that I use for
> a primary and two 5 gallon glass carboys that I used to secondary in.
> Five gallon food grade buckets with lids are free to me. So my question is.
>
> If I keep my freezer at say 60F, how long can I leave batches in there
> in the 5 gallon food grade buckets, as a tertiary, before moving to kegs
> and force carbonating?
>
> If it is sealed air tight in a food grade bucket is there a risk of it
> going bad for any reason? If so, how long can I go without risking this?
I'd guess months at least. The only issue I think you'll run into is the
oxygen permeability of the plastic buckets. If you decide that you want to
do a really long tertiary, it might be a better idea to use the buckets
as your secondary and the carboys as your tertiary. Or, just leave them
in the carboy secondary for aging instead of using a tertiary (this is
what I do).
John.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 12:38:09
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:09 -0700, <usenet@jamesrobert.us> wrote:
>> So I am in the process of getting a large chest freezer. I already have
>> a temp controller waiting for it.
>>
>> I have a large 12 gallon food grade bucket type fermenter that I use for
>> a primary and two 5 gallon glass carboys that I used to secondary in.
>> Five gallon food grade buckets with lids are free to me. So my question is.
>>
>> If I keep my freezer at say 60F, how long can I leave batches in there
>> in the 5 gallon food grade buckets, as a tertiary, before moving to kegs
>> and force carbonating?
>>
>> If it is sealed air tight in a food grade bucket is there a risk of it
>> going bad for any reason? If so, how long can I go without risking this?
>
> I'd guess months at least. The only issue I think you'll run into is the
> oxygen permeability of the plastic buckets. If you decide that you want to
> do a really long tertiary, it might be a better idea to use the buckets
> as your secondary and the carboys as your tertiary. Or, just leave them
> in the carboy secondary for aging instead of using a tertiary (this is
> what I do).
>
>
> John.
Yeah, but since I am limited in funds and glass carboys, but not in
plastic buckets at all...
You see what I was thinking is that I could continue to brew even while
not emptying kegs and always have somethings (three or four batches)
ready to go into a keg when it blows this way. Just open the freezer,
grab the bucket labeled with the beer you want and keg it up.
So the buckets weren't for aging so much as putting the beer into a
holding pattern.
Thanks, as always, for your reply.
Ryan
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 15:39:40
From: Richard Kaszeta
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us > writes:
> Yeah, but since I am limited in funds and glass carboys, but not in
> plastic buckets at all...
Surely you can pick up a few carboys (Glass or Better Bottles)?
Around here I can pick up a glass carboy for roughly the cost of the
ingredients for one batch.
--
Richard W Kaszeta
rich@kaszeta.org
http://www.kaszeta.org/rich
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 13:52:27
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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Richard Kaszeta wrote:
> Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us> writes:
>> Yeah, but since I am limited in funds and glass carboys, but not in
>> plastic buckets at all...
>
> Surely you can pick up a few carboys (Glass or Better Bottles)?
> Around here I can pick up a glass carboy for roughly the cost of the
> ingredients for one batch.
>
I can't even buy ingredients in town. It is an hour's drive each way. So
when I go I spend quite a bit and stock up. I have spent my brewing
budget for a while.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 20:47:34
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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On 26 Jun 2006 15:39:40 -0500, <rich@kaszeta.org > wrote:
> Ryan Case <usenet@jamesrobert.us> writes:
>> Yeah, but since I am limited in funds and glass carboys, but not in
>> plastic buckets at all...
>
> Surely you can pick up a few carboys (Glass or Better Bottles)?
> Around here I can pick up a glass carboy for roughly the cost of the
> ingredients for one batch.
You can often find kegs for cheaper than carboys. Sounds like that may solve
his main problem... IE he doesn't have enough kegs to hold the beer he
makes. That way you're storing it in the keg under pressure instead of
trying to do long term storage in a fermenter.
John.
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 07:11:02
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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> That may or may not work. Having a high concentration of CO2 in the fridge
> doesn't effect the amount of oxygen that is in there. The only way that
> the CO2 will effect the amount of air is if you are creating so much off
> gassing of CO2 during fermentation that it is physically blowing past
> the seals of the door and pushing the oxygen out. This is how the CO2 from
> fermentation purges oxygen from the headspace of a carboy/bucket. I don't
> know if it will be strong enough to have the same effect on the much larger
> freezer.
>
> I guess it's possible, but it sounds like somewhat of a stretch.
>
>
> John.
Step 1. Drill hole in lid of freezer.
Step 2. Affix airlock to said hole.
LOL
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 10:36:57
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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"Scotty B" <michaellasalle@gmail.com > writes:
> > That may or may not work. Having a high concentration of CO2 in the fridge
> > doesn't effect the amount of oxygen that is in there. The only way that
> > the CO2 will effect the amount of air is if you are creating so much off
> > gassing of CO2 during fermentation that it is physically blowing past
> > the seals of the door and pushing the oxygen out. This is how the CO2 from
> > fermentation purges oxygen from the headspace of a carboy/bucket. I don't
> > know if it will be strong enough to have the same effect on the much larger
> > freezer.
> >
> > I guess it's possible, but it sounds like somewhat of a stretch.
> >
> >
> > John.
>
> Step 1. Drill hole in lid of freezer.
> Step 2. Affix airlock to said hole.
>
> LOL
>
Step 3. After fermentation, remove airlock and insert straw.
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 10:13:05
From: Danny Williams
Subject: Re: Primaries, Secondariers, and Tertiaries, OH MY!
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I'd guess months at least. The only issue I think you'll run into is the
> oxygen permeability of the plastic buckets.
You could wrap your buckets in cling film or aluminum foil. IIRC both
of them have permeability far below that of the plastic buckets.
I'm pulling this out of my foggy distant memory, but isn't permeability
measured in something like ppm per area of bucket per thickness of
plastic? The plain bucket was something like 200, saran wrap is like 3,
and foil down close to 0.
Someone who owns a D.O. meter needs to experiment and report back!
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