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Main
Date: 31 May 2006 02:46:25
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Praline beer recipe
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I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many
replies after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a
thick, malty, nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am
fine with the beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this
might be a deviant species of Wee Heavy.
Here are the ingredients:
8.0 lbs Marris Otter (base malt)
0.5 lbs Crystal 100L (color and some caramel)
2.0 lbs Carapils (body)
3.0 lbs Victory (nut flavor)
3.0 lbs Biscuit (malt flavor)
2.0 lbs Wheat Malt (sugar and head)
2.0 lbs flaked oats (thickness/body, cloudiness, some sugars--I guess)
Comedy option ingredient: ~2.0 lbs freshly-made caramel. I'll throw it
together myself so I know what went into it. I'm having a hard time
trying to factor it in--of course no brewing software has calculations
for real caramel. It should add a lot of body, sugar, and flavor.
At 70% efficiency, OG should be 1.088 before caramel. Right now I have
it marked as "lactose" and calculate and OG of 1.102. FG is speculated
at 1.034, but with a dextrous mash I hope to get it higher. I'll keep
some malt extract nearby and make extra caramel if I think it necessary.
Mash
----
Mash-in at 122F for protein rest
single decion mash to 155F for a very dextrous beer
Mash-out at 170F, infusion
Collect 6.5 gallons, boil to 5.5 gallons, factoring in addition of
~2.0lbs of caramel.
Hops:
1oz Brewer's Gold pellets @ 60min
1oz Challenger pellets @ 60min
Speculated IBUs are 33.5 (Tinseth)
Ferment with WLP002 English Ale Yeast at ~65F. Create two
starters--secondary in case first once keels over early.
Thoughts?
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Date: 31 May 2006 04:34:59
From: QD Steve
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5s7fg.67$0v4.24@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many replies
> after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a thick, malty,
> nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am fine with the
> beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this might be a
> deviant species of Wee Heavy.
>
> Here are the ingredients:
> 8.0 lbs Marris Otter (base malt)
> 0.5 lbs Crystal 100L (color and some caramel)
> 2.0 lbs Carapils (body)
> 3.0 lbs Victory (nut flavor)
> 3.0 lbs Biscuit (malt flavor)
> 2.0 lbs Wheat Malt (sugar and head)
> 2.0 lbs flaked oats (thickness/body, cloudiness, some sugars--I guess)
>
> Comedy option ingredient: ~2.0 lbs freshly-made caramel. I'll throw it
> together myself so I know what went into it. I'm having a hard time
> trying to factor it in--of course no brewing software has calculations for
> real caramel. It should add a lot of body, sugar, and flavor.
>
> At 70% efficiency, OG should be 1.088 before caramel. Right now I have it
> marked as "lactose" and calculate and OG of 1.102. FG is speculated at
> 1.034, but with a dextrous mash I hope to get it higher. I'll keep some
> malt extract nearby and make extra caramel if I think it necessary.
>
> Mash
> ----
> Mash-in at 122F for protein rest
> single decion mash to 155F for a very dextrous beer
> Mash-out at 170F, infusion
>
> Collect 6.5 gallons, boil to 5.5 gallons, factoring in addition of ~2.0lbs
> of caramel.
>
> Hops:
> 1oz Brewer's Gold pellets @ 60min
> 1oz Challenger pellets @ 60min
>
> Speculated IBUs are 33.5 (Tinseth)
>
> Ferment with WLP002 English Ale Yeast at ~65F. Create two
> starters--secondary in case first once keels over early.
>
> Thoughts?
It sounds interesting. Although, caramel is just caramelised sugar and I
think it will ferment out completely and will thin the beer rather than add
body. I wouldn't factor it in as lactose because lactose is not fermentable.
I think the addition of oats is not necessary, you should have enough body
with the malt grains, carapils and wheat. Also, with 2lbs each of wheat and
oats a stuck runoff is almost certain. You could mash at 158 which is pretty
much the upper limit but will produce a dextrinous wort. This is just my
opinion of course, others may agree or disagree. But homebrewing is all
about experimenting so run with it if you're happy with it.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 30 May 2006 23:12:54
From: John Oberley
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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In article <5s7fg.67$0v4.24@tornado.texas.rr.com >,
rockobonaparte@hotmail.com says...
> I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many
> replies after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a
> thick, malty, nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am
> fine with the beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this
> might be a deviant species of Wee Heavy.
>
> Here are the ingredients:
> 8.0 lbs Marris Otter (base malt)
> 0.5 lbs Crystal 100L (color and some caramel)
> 2.0 lbs Carapils (body)
> 3.0 lbs Victory (nut flavor)
> 3.0 lbs Biscuit (malt flavor)
> 2.0 lbs Wheat Malt (sugar and head)
> 2.0 lbs flaked oats (thickness/body, cloudiness, some sugars--I guess)
>
> Comedy option ingredient: ~2.0 lbs freshly-made caramel. I'll throw it
> together myself so I know what went into it. I'm having a hard time
> trying to factor it in--of course no brewing software has calculations
> for real caramel. It should add a lot of body, sugar, and flavor.
>
> At 70% efficiency, OG should be 1.088 before caramel. Right now I have
> it marked as "lactose" and calculate and OG of 1.102. FG is speculated
> at 1.034, but with a dextrous mash I hope to get it higher. I'll keep
> some malt extract nearby and make extra caramel if I think it necessary.
>
> Mash
> ----
> Mash-in at 122F for protein rest
> single decion mash to 155F for a very dextrous beer
> Mash-out at 170F, infusion
>
> Collect 6.5 gallons, boil to 5.5 gallons, factoring in addition of
> ~2.0lbs of caramel.
>
> Hops:
> 1oz Brewer's Gold pellets @ 60min
> 1oz Challenger pellets @ 60min
>
> Speculated IBUs are 33.5 (Tinseth)
>
> Ferment with WLP002 English Ale Yeast at ~65F. Create two
> starters--secondary in case first once keels over early.
>
> Thoughts?
>
If you make true caramel, instead of those buttery candy toffee things,
put it in the software as just sugar, because that's all it is. You
either make it "dry" by just heating the sugar until it dissolves and
browns, or "wet" by dissolving the sugar in a little water before
heating and darkening. I shudder to think what would happen if you used
candy caramels. All that oil... ugh.
Not sure I'd want to try it, but hey, it's your beer. Have fun!
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Date: 31 May 2006 06:36:55
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Based on the first few replies, I see the fixation on the caramel. I
looked it up and see it's simpler than I thought. Somehow I thought it
involved dairy or something like condensed milk. In this case, I'd just
do 2 pounds of sugar with a little bit of water to control it. Not that
it has to be perfect, but I could use the practice.
Also, I didn't fill in the mash schedule:
122F for 30 minutes
decoection step to 155F (boil full 30 minutes)
Rest at 155F until my gravity isn't changing anymore; an hour?
As for the final gravity, I am looking more for something that slides
out of the bottle instead of pours. Well, not that crazy, but you
understand . . .
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Date: 31 May 2006 07:14:37
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Based on the first few replies, I see the fixation on the caramel. I
> looked it up and see it's simpler than I thought. Somehow I thought it
> involved dairy or something like condensed milk. In this case, I'd just
> do 2 pounds of sugar with a little bit of water to control it. Not that
> it has to be perfect, but I could use the practice.
>
> Also, I didn't fill in the mash schedule:
> 122F for 30 minutes
Why are you doing a Protein Rest?
> decion step to 155F (boil full 30 minutes)
> Rest at 155F until my gravity isn't changing anymore; an hour?
Are you going to rest and then boil OR rest, boil, and rest again?
> As for the final gravity, I am looking more for something that
> slides out of the bottle instead of pours. Well, not that
> crazy, but you understand . . .
I like thick-n-sweet.
Dick
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 00:21:09
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Dick Adams wrote:
>>Also, I didn't fill in the mash schedule:
>>122F for 30 minutes
>
>
> Why are you doing a Protein Rest?
Seemed like a good idea with all the whacky ingredients. Also, it was
an idea of a resting temperature while I did the decion mash. I
don't want to rest higher or I think I'd get a too fermentable wort.
> Are you going to rest and then boil OR rest, boil, and rest again?
Heh I'm not good at laying out those steps. Hit 122F and rest 30
minutes, then scoop out decion mash, raise it to 155F, rest an hour,
boil, dump back to raise to 155F.
I'm keen on a decion mash for the caramel. I think it's more
important if I plan to do this without the fresh caramel comedy option.
But I don't want to do double or triple decion--seems silly for
this kind of beer.
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 01:52:05
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Dick Adams wrote:
>>> Also, I didn't fill in the mash schedule:
>>> 122F for 30 minutes
>> Why are you doing a Protein Rest?
> Seemed like a good idea with all the whacky ingredients. Also, it was
> an idea of a resting temperature while I did the decion mash. I
> don't want to rest higher or I think I'd get a too fermentable wort.
>> Are you going to rest and then boil OR rest, boil, and rest again?
> Heh I'm not good at laying out those steps. Hit 122F and rest 30
> minutes, then scoop out decion mash, raise it to 155F, rest an hour,
> boil, dump back to raise to 155F.
>
> I'm keen on a decion mash for the caramel. I think it's more
> important if I plan to do this without the fresh caramel comedy option.
> But I don't want to do double or triple decion--seems silly for
> this kind of beer.
I have never done a decion mash nor do I plan to do so. However,
I have done extensive reading on it. I suggest you read:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/Hi-Res/advanced-mashing.pdf
Dick
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 08:53:12
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Adam Preble wrote:
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
> >>Also, I didn't fill in the mash schedule:
> >>122F for 30 minutes
> >
> >
> > Why are you doing a Protein Rest?
>
> Seemed like a good idea with all the whacky ingredients. Also, it was
> an idea of a resting temperature while I did the decion mash. I
> don't want to rest higher or I think I'd get a too fermentable wort.
>
> > Are you going to rest and then boil OR rest, boil, and rest again?
>
> Heh I'm not good at laying out those steps. Hit 122F and rest 30
> minutes, then scoop out decion mash, raise it to 155F, rest an hour,
> boil, dump back to raise to 155F.
>
> I'm keen on a decion mash for the caramel. I think it's more
> important if I plan to do this without the fresh caramel comedy option.
> But I don't want to do double or triple decion--seems silly for
> this kind of beer.
Adam, I certainly wouldn't reccomend a protein resdt at all, and
certainly not at 122 for that length of time with that grist. You're
likely gonna end up with a bodiless beer with little to no head. Also,
you might be interested to know that tests that I've run in conjunction
with others show no reall taste effect from a single decion mash.
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 21:54:53
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Denny Conn wrote:
> Adam, I certainly wouldn't reccomend a protein resdt at all, and
> certainly not at 122 for that length of time with that grist. You're
> likely gonna end up with a bodiless beer with little to no head. Also,
> you might be interested to know that tests that I've run in conjunction
> with others show no reall taste effect from a single decion mash.
That leaves me with a single rest at 155F and mashout at 170F. I
thought the decion step would start to caramelize things. Is that
really not true?
I want a high FG so that's why I picked 155F. Would that be too dextrous?
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 01:00:40
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:54:53 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Denny Conn wrote:
>> Adam, I certainly wouldn't reccomend a protein resdt at all, and
>> certainly not at 122 for that length of time with that grist. You're
>> likely gonna end up with a bodiless beer with little to no head. Also,
>> you might be interested to know that tests that I've run in conjunction
>> with others show no reall taste effect from a single decion mash.
>
> That leaves me with a single rest at 155F and mashout at 170F. I
> thought the decion step would start to caramelize things. Is that
> really not true?
No, not really. IMO, boil down the first runnings to get a better effect.
> I want a high FG so that's why I picked 155F. Would that be too dextrous?
155F would probably be good for what you want.
As others have said, it's your recipe, but IMO try to avoid the trap that
many, many first time recipe authors fall into and make it way over
complicated. If you've got 6+ different grains and 3+ mash steps, then
you're probably making things way too difficult. ;) You'd be amazed at
the range of beers you can make with very simple recipes/procedures.
John.
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 23:57:10
From: QD Steve
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:NmJfg.3306$0v4.2021@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Denny Conn wrote:
>> Adam, I certainly wouldn't reccomend a protein resdt at all, and
>> certainly not at 122 for that length of time with that grist. You're
>> likely gonna end up with a bodiless beer with little to no head. Also,
>> you might be interested to know that tests that I've run in conjunction
>> with others show no reall taste effect from a single decion mash.
>
> That leaves me with a single rest at 155F and mashout at 170F. I thought
> the decion step would start to caramelize things. Is that really not
> true?
>
From experience, a decion can make a difference but, But, to make a
noticeable taste change you need to take a thick proportion of the grist,
boil it and boil it and boil it until it looks much darker, adding small
amounts of water to stop scorching and stirring very frequently.
A better way IMO is to take a proportion of the first runnings after (say)
one hour, and boil it until its reduced to a syrup. This will darken and
caramalise. The degree you do this is up to you.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 22:21:35
From: Kyle
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
In article <NmJfg.3306$0v4.2021@tornado.texas.rr.com >,
Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Denny Conn wrote:
>> Adam, I certainly wouldn't reccomend a protein resdt at all, and
>> certainly not at 122 for that length of time with that grist. You're
>> likely gonna end up with a bodiless beer with little to no head. Also,
>> you might be interested to know that tests that I've run in conjunction
>> with others show no reall taste effect from a single decion mash.
>
>That leaves me with a single rest at 155F and mashout at 170F. I
>thought the decion step would start to caramelize things. Is that
>really not true?
>
>I want a high FG so that's why I picked 155F. Would that be too dextrous?
Nah, 155F should be fine. I used to mash at (what I thought was)
152F. Then I got a scientific thermometer and found out I was mashing
at 155F. After doing so many brews at that temp, I have trouble going
back to 152F and prefer the flavor profile of 155F for many of my
recipes.
And just do a single rest and mashout. No decion. Boil the first
runnings down like I mentioned in a previous post.
My final words of wisdom: forget what everyone (including me) has
said. Do your own thing. Only you know what profile you're after.
Your praline beer recipe will evolve over time, along with your
brewing knowledge. Try it one way, tweak, iterate.
-Kyle
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 08:49:51
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Adam Preble wrote:
> That leaves me with a single rest at 155F and mashout at 170F. I
> thought the decion step would start to caramelize things. Is that
> really not true?
In my expreieince, and that of many others, a single decion step
won't get you nearly the caramel flavor that boiling a gal. of first
runnings down to a qt. will.
> I want a high FG so that's why I picked 155F. Would that be too dextrous?
No, especially not if you're set on adding some form of sugar.
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 31 May 2006 05:56:17
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com >:
>I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many
>replies after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a
>thick, malty, nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am
>fine with the beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this
>might be a deviant species of Wee Heavy.
>Here are the ingredients:
>8.0 lbs Marris Otter (base malt)
>0.5 lbs Crystal 100L (color and some caramel)
>2.0 lbs Carapils (body)
>3.0 lbs Victory (nut flavor)
>3.0 lbs Biscuit (malt flavor)
>2.0 lbs Wheat Malt (sugar and head)
>2.0 lbs flaked oats (thickness/body, cloudiness, some sugars--I guess)
>Comedy option ingredient: ~2.0 lbs freshly-made caramel. I'll
>throw it together myself so I know what went into it. I'm
>having a hard time trying to factor it in--of course no brewing
>software has calculations for real caramel. It should add a lot
>of body, sugar, and flavor.
Like John O said, much depends on what you put into the caramel.
You probably need to break that out before anyone can really
comment.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 31 May 2006 13:40:48
From:
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
I'd say your addition of caramel (carmelized sugar) is going to have
the opposite effect of your intention...its going to thin out your
beer. I agree with the above posters suggestions..if you're seeking to
bump the gravity, do it with malt if possible and caramelize your first
runnings to get the flavors you're after.
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Date: 31 May 2006 20:25:31
From: Kyle
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Go ahead and give it a try-- I think you're on the right track. A
couple things you might consider...
Marris Otter is an excellent base malt. Purportedly it's not huge on
diastatic power so you may have difficulty with starch conversion
considering you've got a good amount of kilned malts and flaked oats
in there. It'll most probably convert, but if you're concerned you
could sub a pound or three of marris otter for pale ale 2-row.
Aren't Victory malt and Biscuit malt basically the same thing from
different maltsters? With 6 pounds of the stuff that's going to be a
bit much. I use 1/2 - 3/4 pound for most of my pale ales / ambers and
that provides good flavor. I'd start with a total of 2 lb of biscuit
or victory and adjust from there. You might consider using honey malt
too. Maybe 1.5 lb biscuit + 0.5 lb honey malt?
Up the crystal to a pound or two. Better yet, combine both Crystal
100L and a darker crystal (120-160L). Cut out the carapils and let
the dark crystal come through.
During the sparge, boil the first gallon down to half that while
collecting the rest of the runnings in a separate kettle. Ditch the
homemade caramel-- caramalizing the first runnings will serve you
better.
In article <5s7fg.67$0v4.24@tornado.texas.rr.com >,
Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many
>replies after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a
>thick, malty, nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am
>fine with the beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this
>might be a deviant species of Wee Heavy.
>
>Here are the ingredients:
>8.0 lbs Marris Otter (base malt)
>0.5 lbs Crystal 100L (color and some caramel)
>2.0 lbs Carapils (body)
>3.0 lbs Victory (nut flavor)
>3.0 lbs Biscuit (malt flavor)
>2.0 lbs Wheat Malt (sugar and head)
>2.0 lbs flaked oats (thickness/body, cloudiness, some sugars--I guess)
>
>Comedy option ingredient: ~2.0 lbs freshly-made caramel. I'll throw it
>together myself so I know what went into it. I'm having a hard time
>trying to factor it in--of course no brewing software has calculations
>for real caramel. It should add a lot of body, sugar, and flavor.
>
>At 70% efficiency, OG should be 1.088 before caramel. Right now I have
>it marked as "lactose" and calculate and OG of 1.102. FG is speculated
>at 1.034, but with a dextrous mash I hope to get it higher. I'll keep
>some malt extract nearby and make extra caramel if I think it necessary.
>
>Mash
>----
>Mash-in at 122F for protein rest
>single decion mash to 155F for a very dextrous beer
>Mash-out at 170F, infusion
>
>Collect 6.5 gallons, boil to 5.5 gallons, factoring in addition of
>~2.0lbs of caramel.
>
>Hops:
>1oz Brewer's Gold pellets @ 60min
>1oz Challenger pellets @ 60min
>
>Speculated IBUs are 33.5 (Tinseth)
>
>Ferment with WLP002 English Ale Yeast at ~65F. Create two
>starters--secondary in case first once keels over early.
>
>Thoughts?
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 00:14:17
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Kyle wrote:
> Marris Otter is an excellent base malt. Purportedly it's not huge on
> diastatic power so you may have difficulty with starch conversion
> considering you've got a good amount of kilned malts and flaked oats
> in there. It'll most probably convert, but if you're concerned you
> could sub a pound or three of marris otter for pale ale 2-row.
Good to keep in mind.
>
> Aren't Victory malt and Biscuit malt basically the same thing from
> different maltsters? With 6 pounds of the stuff that's going to be a
> bit much. I use 1/2 - 3/4 pound for most of my pale ales / ambers and
I don't know. What I read is that victory is the nutty malt. If it has
a strong malt component too, then I would take out the biscuit malt and
adjust accordingly.
> Up the crystal to a pound or two. Better yet, combine both Crystal
> 100L and a darker crystal (120-160L). Cut out the carapils and let
> the dark crystal come through.
I'm afraid it'll make it too dark. I want a beer with the caramel color
as well. The carapils are for a dextrous beer--I want something with a
high finishing gravity. Though I don't see it contributing too much;
based on descriptions, I'd expect it to do a lot more.
> During the sparge, boil the first gallon down to half that while
> collecting the rest of the runnings in a separate kettle. Ditch the
> homemade caramel-- caramalizing the first runnings will serve you
> better.
Hmm I might try it, but I don't think I'll get the full caramel flavor I
want. Does caramel really ferment as well as the same quantity sugar
unaltered?
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 05:36:03
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com >:
>Kyle wrote:
[...]
>> During the sparge, boil the first gallon down to half that
>> while collecting the rest of the runnings in a separate
>> kettle. Ditch the homemade caramel-- caramalizing the first
>> runnings will serve you better.
>Hmm I might try it, but I don't think I'll get the full caramel
>flavor I want. Does caramel really ferment as well as the same
>quantity sugar unaltered?
I'm not sure. But caramelized sugar is still sugar. I think it
will provide some color, some flavor, but most of it will go to
alcohol, with the effect of thinning the beer. This could be
sort of balanced by the carapils, but won't bring back the
sweetness.
Caramelizing the first runnings is different, because you're
working with sugars that are more complex/less fermentable
(depending on mash temp) than pure refined sugar. So more should
stick around during the ferment.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 08:54:55
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Scott Sellers wrote:
> I'm not sure. But caramelized sugar is still sugar. I think it
> will provide some color, some flavor, but most of it will go to
> alcohol, with the effect of thinning the beer. This could be
> sort of balanced by the carapils, but won't bring back the
> sweetness.
I agree...many people have tried adding some sort of "caramel" to their
beers through various forms of suagr, but I've never heard of one that
worked.
> Caramelizing the first runnings is different, because you're
> working with sugars that are more complex/less fermentable
> (depending on mash temp) than pure refined sugar. So more should
> stick around during the ferment.
This is the course I'd take....
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 01 Jun 2006 05:44:41
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
Scott Sellers <scottsellers@mindspring.com >:
>Adam Preble <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com>:
>>Kyle wrote:
>[...]
>>> During the sparge, boil the first gallon down to half that
>>> while collecting the rest of the runnings in a separate
>>> kettle. Ditch the homemade caramel-- caramalizing the first
>>> runnings will serve you better.
>>Hmm I might try it, but I don't think I'll get the full caramel
>>flavor I want. Does caramel really ferment as well as the same
>>quantity sugar unaltered?
>I'm not sure. But caramelized sugar is still sugar. I think it
>will provide some color, some flavor, but most of it will go to
>alcohol, with the effect of thinning the beer. This could be
>sort of balanced by the carapils, but won't bring back the
>sweetness.
>Caramelizing the first runnings is different, because you're
>working with sugars that are more complex/less fermentable
>(depending on mash temp) than pure refined sugar. So more should
>stick around during the ferment.
Oh yeah -- the same goes for the complex sugars in crystal malt.
Crystal malt is AKA caramel malt.
All being said, your plan also makes sense -- it's maybe just
more complicated. Don't let anyone talk you out of it, if it's
what you want to do.
cheers,
Scott
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 05:51:33
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Crud -- I updated the initial thread about this instead of this one.
Here's a final update. I've already bought all the malts so there's no
turning back now:
12.0 lbs Marris Otter
6.0 lbs Pale Ale -- originally mild ale but the store doesn't carry it
3.0 lbs Crystal 60L
3.0 lbs Victory
2.0 lbs Carapils
1.5 lbs Flaked Oats
1.0 lb Wheat Malt
Hops
1oz Brewers gold @ 60 min
1oz Challenger @ 60 min
Yeast
WLP002 English Ale Yeast
Calculated OG 1.114. Speculated FG is 1.038, but it'll do whatever it
wants with a dextrous mash.
Mash schedule:
Infuse to 155F until sugars are converted.
Mashout at 170F.
I will caramelize the first gallon of runnings. I have 3 pounds of
amber dry extract now. If I find the flavor too weak, I'll just
caramelize some of that and toss it in. I'll be using some of it to
create three starters. The first is for initial pitching. The second
is a backup in case it stalls. The third will be a little bit back in
the tube for bottling time.
It's a lot of grain. I have a 10 gallon cooler for mashing.
Traditionally, I just mashed in the pot but I don't think that'll fly
here. At 1.25 quarts per gallon, I'm looking at just shy of 9 gallons
of water. I'll have to arrange it so that I get right to the limit when
I infuse for mashout.
Is this the kind of beer where I might take second runnings? I have
some extract laying around, along with some old roasted adjuncts. I
could imagine making 2 gallons of small beer off of this. With the
roasted malts, I could make a crappy stout that I'd then coffee the snot
out of.
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Date: 03 Jun 2006 07:22:40
From: David Edge
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 05:51:33 GMT, Adam Preble
<rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
>It's a lot of grain. I have a 10 gallon cooler for mashing.
>Traditionally, I just mashed in the pot but I don't think that'll fly
>here. At 1.25 quarts per gallon, I'm looking at just shy of 9 gallons
>of water. I'll have to arrange it so that I get right to the limit when
>I infuse for mashout.
In my experience (and I'd love to hear others) combining high-gravity
worts with highish temperature mashes may leave you with a very thick
and gloopy beer. For example my 1100 imperial stout came down from
1100 to 1054. Made a good alternative to port.
I think three factors conspire together:
- 155F/68C will kill your beta amylase quickly
- in thick mashes beta amylase activity is reduced further by prodiuct
inhibition (it gives up when it seees itself drowning in maltose)
- high alcohol stops the yeast sooner
all of this is worse still if the grist isn't particularly diastatic -
here in the UK I use Maris Otter as the base malt for most beers.
So at the very least I'd suggest mashing in carefully to you don't
overcook your enzymes.
Oddly enough your thread coincided with my own thoughts of brewing a
Mars Bar Beer. In case you don't have them in the US, it's a chocolate
bar with a nougat and caramel centre. My plans are for 1059og with
45% Pale Maris Otter
22% Diastatic Amber (52EBC)
11% Brown Malt
5½% Melanoidin Malt
5½% Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt
5½% Chocolate Malt
5½% Lactose
plus 1 giant size Mars Bar and home-made caramel for flavour
42 IBUs from Goldings
ESB yeast (from the brewery!)
and lots of CaCl in the liquor
Mash at 65C/149F for the reasons I've explained. YMMV!
Your oats for softness and wheat for head are a good idea, I may
modify my plans. Do let us know how you get on
Regards
David Edge, Derby
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Date: 03 Jun 2006 08:14:20
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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David Edge wrote:
> In my experience (and I'd love to hear others) combining high-gravity
> worts with highish temperature mashes may leave you with a very thick
> and gloopy beer. For example my 1100 imperial stout came down from
> 1100 to 1054. Made a good alternative to port.
Well I do want it thick. I don't know about *that* thick. I'm using
Marris Otter for the base malt so this could be an issue, as you've
outlined below.
>
> I think three factors conspire together:
> - 155F/68C will kill your beta amylase quickly
> - in thick mashes beta amylase activity is reduced further by prodiuct
> inhibition (it gives up when it seees itself drowning in maltose)
> - high alcohol stops the yeast sooner
>
> all of this is worse still if the grist isn't particularly diastatic -
> here in the UK I use Maris Otter as the base malt for most beers.
>
> So at the very least I'd suggest mashing in carefully to you don't
> overcook your enzymes.
So what do you suggest for mashing in? If I use a thicker mash, I can
keep it in the pot and raise it up to 155F as it's heated. This is an
alternative dumping the malts into a bunch of water to try and hit 155F
when they finally mix. Or perhaps I should try 145 for a few minutes
and then raise to 155.
Worst comes to worst, I have about 2.5 pounds of dry amber extract to
supplement, or just tossing in some sugar. I am calculating a 70%
efficiency, which might not be what I'm getting yet (not so sure). But
if I undershoot that a lot, I'll assume a highly dextrous wort that I
should thin.
We have Mars bars here but I don't see anybody ever having them. I've
been told to be wary of introducing real peanuts into beer because the
oils will destroy the head. I've been skirting the issue by using
excessive amounts of malts that are supposed to taste nutty.
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Date: 04 Jun 2006 20:28:52
From: David Edge
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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Adam
>> So at the very least I'd suggest mashing in carefully to you don't
>> overcook your enzymes.
>
>So what do you suggest for mashing in? If I use a thicker mash, I can
>keep it in the pot and raise it up to 155F as it's heated. This is an
>alternative dumping the malts into a bunch of water to try and hit 155F
>when they finally mix. Or perhaps I should try 145 for a few minutes
>and then raise to 155.
I'm not sure what your kit is and how tight you are for space; my
system is on its limits brewing beers this big. If you've got some
space I'd aim low and then warm up - of course you may have a means of
heating the mash tun - unusual here in the UK.
We reduce the thermal shock to the malts by 'underletting' - the
liquor is run in from the hot liquor tank through the outlet and the
grist added at the same time.
>Worst comes to worst, I have about 2.5 pounds of dry amber extract to
>supplement, or just tossing in some sugar. I am calculating a 70%
>efficiency, which might not be what I'm getting yet (not so sure). But
>if I undershoot that a lot, I'll assume a highly dextrous wort that I
>should thin.
70% might even be optimistic depending on what you normally get.
Unless you plan to boil a lot you're not going to do much sparging.
The efficiency doesn't really tell you much about how dextrinous your
wort is - you'll find that out when it stops fermenting. I would be
inclined, like you, to put some sugar in to thin it out if that
happened.
Also, not sure how experienced you are, so apologies if it's obvious,
but at that gravity you should pitch lots of yeast - probably more
than you'd expect if you just assumed triple gravity = triple
piutxhing rate. Some yeast nutrient wouldn't go amiss either.
Best of luck
David Edge, Derby
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Date: 04 Jun 2006 22:00:46
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
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David Edge <david.j.edge@ntlworld.com >:
>Adam
>>> So at the very least I'd suggest mashing in carefully to you don't
>>> overcook your enzymes.
>>
>>So what do you suggest for mashing in? If I use a thicker
>>mash, I can keep it in the pot and raise it up to 155F as it's
>>heated. This is an alternative dumping the malts into a bunch
>>of water to try and hit 155F when they finally mix. Or perhaps
>>I should try 145 for a few minutes and then raise to 155.
>I'm not sure what your kit is and how tight you are for space;
>my system is on its limits brewing beers this big. If you've got
>some space I'd aim low and then warm up - of course you may have
>a means of heating the mash tun - unusual here in the UK.
>We reduce the thermal shock to the malts by 'underletting' - the
>liquor is run in from the hot liquor tank through the outlet and
>the grist added at the same time.
>>Worst comes to worst, I have about 2.5 pounds of dry amber
>>extract to supplement, or just tossing in some sugar. I am
>>calculating a 70% efficiency, which might not be what I'm
>>getting yet (not so sure). But if I undershoot that a lot,
>>I'll assume a highly dextrous wort that I should thin.
>70% might even be optimistic depending on what you normally get.
>Unless you plan to boil a lot you're not going to do much
>sparging. The efficiency doesn't really tell you much about how
>dextrinous your wort is - you'll find that out when it stops
>fermenting. I would be inclined, like you, to put some sugar in
>to thin it out if that happened.
Just a thought. I don't think adding sugar alone would effect FG
a whole lot. It would go down some, due to higher alcohol
percentage, but the addition would mostly amount to an effective
increase in OG. It won't make those dextrins and other
unfermentables from the grainbill go away.
To really decrease FG, you'd need to add water, with or without
more sugar, to increase the batch size, and so the dilution of
the unfermentables, etc.
Maybe this was implied?
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 05 Jun 2006 15:49:44
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:00:46 GMT, <scottsellers@mindspring.com > wrote:
> Just a thought. I don't think adding sugar alone would effect FG
> a whole lot. It would go down some, due to higher alcohol
> percentage, but the addition would mostly amount to an effective
> increase in OG. It won't make those dextrins and other
> unfermentables from the grainbill go away.
>
> To really decrease FG, you'd need to add water, with or without
> more sugar, to increase the batch size, and so the dilution of
> the unfermentables, etc.
>
> Maybe this was implied?
The practice of "adding sugar to thin out the beer" is a bit of a misnomer.
What you really do is either substitute some of the original extract with
sugar instead, or else as you suggested you add sugar and then also add water.
The idea is to keep the OG the same, but sugar will ferment out more than
extract does so you'll get more attenuation. If you actually add sugar to
an existing recipe/batch then you're correct that the FG won't change much
but the effective OG will be raised, so your overall attenuation will be
higher.
John.
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Date: 05 Jun 2006 10:22:06
From: Drew Avis
Subject: Re: Praline beer recipe
|
"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5s7fg.67$0v4.24@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've been trying to get help with this recipe but haven't had many replies
> after I proposed the original idea. The plan is to create a thick, malty,
> nutty, caramel beer. To convey a sense of caramel, I am fine with the
> beer being cloudy. From what I've scraped together, this might be a
> deviant species of Wee Heavy.
Adam, a couple of thoughts.
1. I think you can get a truly caramel-y beer by caramelizing the first
runnings -- boil the first gal of runnings down until it's a thick sludge,
similar to LME, and toss it back into the kettle (or add the rest of the
runnings on top). This is the trick to Scott Abene's nice wee heavy, which
I've tried and is really fantastic.
2. Encourage diacetyl with the right yeast, and/or racking to secondary a
bit early (removing the bulk of flocculated yeast before it can reabsorb the
diacetyl). This accentuates the caramel flavour.
3. You can certainly add real caramel, I've tried this and it does add a
somewhat caramelly flavour, but it's not as pronounced as you'd think, and
it doesn't add anything to the body.
4. Use very good and fresh UK caramel malts, 34-40 lov (this is the range of
"carastan", a great UK crystal malt for this purpose).
Hope those thoughts help,
Drew
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