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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:04:55
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
(after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
account for the lower gravity.
Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:28:45
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:04:55 -0400, <jim.stansell@comcast.net > wrote:
> I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
> friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
> grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
> topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
> recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
>
> It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
> (after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
> two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
> the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
> to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
> account for the lower gravity.
>
> Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
A 20 minute boil is pretty short for getting much effect from bittering
hops. Are you sure that you even need to worry about the utilization?
With that short of a boil, I would assume that the extract is already
pre-hopped and the only hops you add to the boil are for flavor/aroma
where the utilization changes due to SG won't make much difference.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 11:59:24
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On 12 Jul 2006 15:28:45 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:04:55 -0400, <jim.stansell@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
>> friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
>> grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
>> topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
>> recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
>>
>> It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
>> (after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
>> two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
>> the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
>> to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
>> account for the lower gravity.
>>
>> Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
>
>A 20 minute boil is pretty short for getting much effect from bittering
>hops. Are you sure that you even need to worry about the utilization?
>With that short of a boil, I would assume that the extract is already
>pre-hopped and the only hops you add to the boil are for flavor/aroma
>where the utilization changes due to SG won't make much difference.
>
>
>John.
It's plain amber LME....unhopped. The recipe calls for a little over
two ounces of Perle (7% AA) for 20 minutes. According to ProMash, in a
1.215 wort, that will yield about 32 IBUs. If I dilute to a full five
gallon boil, the same quantity of hops would generate about 20 IBUs.
If I go to a full boil, I'd have to increase the Perle from about two
ounces to 3.5 ounces to keep the IBUs around 32.
Here's the other question......is it even worth it to go to a full
boil? What exactly is gained? The recipe is for a porter, so doing a
five gallon boil to avoid darkening the wort isn't an issue.
Lastly, wrt short boil times, you might want to check out the article
in the latest Zymurgy by Jamil Zainasheff on using only late hop
additions. It was pretty interesting.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 06:38:19
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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Jim Stansell wrote:
> I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
> friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
> grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
> topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
> recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
>
> It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
> (after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
> two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
> the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
> to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
> account for the lower gravity.
>
> Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
Personally I use the recope spreadsheet at www.hbd.org/recipator. I
add the recipe as given and then make a note of the gravity and IBU
calculated and then tweak thins to keep those numbers the same. For
instance set it to a 2 gal boil and see the calculated IBUs and then up
the boil to 5 gal and adjust the hops for the same IBU heeping them in
proportion based on boil times.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 11:04:03
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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Jim Stansell wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 15:28:45 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:04:55 -0400, <jim.stansell@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
> >> friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
> >> grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
> >> topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
> >> recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
> >>
> >> It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
> >> (after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
> >> two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
> >> the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
> >> to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
> >> account for the lower gravity.
> >>
> >> Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
> >
> >A 20 minute boil is pretty short for getting much effect from bittering
> >hops. Are you sure that you even need to worry about the utilization?
> >With that short of a boil, I would assume that the extract is already
> >pre-hopped and the only hops you add to the boil are for flavor/aroma
> >where the utilization changes due to SG won't make much difference.
> >
> >
> >John.
>
> It's plain amber LME....unhopped. The recipe calls for a little over
> two ounces of Perle (7% AA) for 20 minutes. According to ProMash, in a
> 1.215 wort, that will yield about 32 IBUs. If I dilute to a full five
> gallon boil, the same quantity of hops would generate about 20 IBUs.
> If I go to a full boil, I'd have to increase the Perle from about two
> ounces to 3.5 ounces to keep the IBUs around 32.
>
> Here's the other question......is it even worth it to go to a full
> boil? What exactly is gained? The recipe is for a porter, so doing a
> five gallon boil to avoid darkening the wort isn't an issue.
>
> Lastly, wrt short boil times, you might want to check out the article
> in the latest Zymurgy by Jamil Zainasheff on using only late hop
> additions. It was pretty interesting.
OK, I did some reverse engineering here...
Specialty grains aside, you will need about 11.5lb amber extract to get
to 1.085 in 5 gal batch.
With a 2 gal boil of 2 oz 7% perle in this wort I get 7 IBUs by Tinseth
and 13 IBUs by Rager. REALLY Low by style guidelines, but thats a
taste thing... Your recipe, your IBUs
If you go to 5 gal boil you get 24 IBUs by Tinseth and 20 IBUs by Rager
(closer to the standard by style guidelines of 20-30.
I'm guessing that your recipe was actually designed for a full volume
boil at that hopping rate.
If you want to get the 24/20 IBU rane at a 2 gal boil you will need
somewhere around 4 oz of 7% Perle. due to lowered utilization of hops
at higher gravity
To scale the 2 gal boil up to a full boil with the 7/13 IBUs above you
will need about 1 oz of Perle.
That being said, these are all not truly equal. I would guess the
beers brewed with these different boil volumes will probably extract
different flavors and levels of flavors from the hops, resulting in
very different beers.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:08:25
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On 12 Jul 2006 11:04:03 -0700, "brian@yahoo.com"
<brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>OK, I did some reverse engineering here...
>
>Specialty grains aside, you will need about 11.5lb amber extract to get
>to 1.085 in 5 gal batch.
>
>With a 2 gal boil of 2 oz 7% perle in this wort I get 7 IBUs by Tinseth
>and 13 IBUs by Rager. REALLY Low by style guidelines, but thats a
>taste thing... Your recipe, your IBUs
>
>If you go to 5 gal boil you get 24 IBUs by Tinseth and 20 IBUs by Rager
>(closer to the standard by style guidelines of 20-30.
>
>I'm guessing that your recipe was actually designed for a full volume
>boil at that hopping rate.
>
>If you want to get the 24/20 IBU rane at a 2 gal boil you will need
>somewhere around 4 oz of 7% Perle. due to lowered utilization of hops
>at higher gravity
>
>To scale the 2 gal boil up to a full boil with the 7/13 IBUs above you
>will need about 1 oz of Perle.
>
>That being said, these are all not truly equal. I would guess the
>beers brewed with these different boil volumes will probably extract
>different flavors and levels of flavors from the hops, resulting in
>very different beers.
For what it's worth, here's a link to the recipe as it appeared in
BYO...it's clearly a two gallon boil.
http://byo.com/recipe/978.html
I agree that the IBUs seem really low for the style...maybe I'll bump
them up a little. Thanks again for the help, guys.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 14:39:14
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On 12 Jul 2006 11:04:03 -0700, "brian@yahoo.com"
<brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>OK, I did some reverse engineering here...
>
>Specialty grains aside, you will need about 11.5lb amber extract to get
>to 1.085 in 5 gal batch.
>
>With a 2 gal boil of 2 oz 7% perle in this wort I get 7 IBUs by Tinseth
>and 13 IBUs by Rager. REALLY Low by style guidelines, but thats a
>taste thing... Your recipe, your IBUs
>
>If you go to 5 gal boil you get 24 IBUs by Tinseth and 20 IBUs by Rager
>(closer to the standard by style guidelines of 20-30.
>
>I'm guessing that your recipe was actually designed for a full volume
>boil at that hopping rate.
>
>If you want to get the 24/20 IBU rane at a 2 gal boil you will need
>somewhere around 4 oz of 7% Perle. due to lowered utilization of hops
>at higher gravity
>
>To scale the 2 gal boil up to a full boil with the 7/13 IBUs above you
>will need about 1 oz of Perle.
>
>That being said, these are all not truly equal. I would guess the
>beers brewed with these different boil volumes will probably extract
>different flavors and levels of flavors from the hops, resulting in
>very different beers.
You and John are exactly right. My mistake was a setting in ProMash I
forgot to change. ProMash has separate settings for batch size (5
gallons in this case) and wort size (2 gallons). But, since I always
do all grain, I had changed a default setting to set batch size equal
to wort size. Changing it back gives exactly the results that you and
John suggest.
Thanks for not believing what I wrote!!!!!
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 10:48:07
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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Jim Stansell wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 15:28:45 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:04:55 -0400, <jim.stansell@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> I was looking at an extract with specialty grains recipe for some
> >> friends that are new to homebrewing. The recipe calls for steeping the
> >> grains in about two gallons of water, and doing a partial boil before
> >> topping up to five gallons after chilling. If I wanted to adapt the
> >> recipe to a full boil, what adjustments do I need to make to the hops?
> >>
> >> It's only a 20 minute boil, so there's not much evaporation. The OG
> >> (after topping off to 5 gallons) is 1.085, so I calculate that for a
> >> two gallon boil, the gravity would be about 1.215. I would assume that
> >> the hop utilization would be significantly different, so if I wanted
> >> to do a full boil I'm guessing that I need to increase the hops to
> >> account for the lower gravity.
> >>
> >> Is there any rule of thumb I should follow?
> >
> >A 20 minute boil is pretty short for getting much effect from bittering
> >hops. Are you sure that you even need to worry about the utilization?
> >With that short of a boil, I would assume that the extract is already
> >pre-hopped and the only hops you add to the boil are for flavor/aroma
> >where the utilization changes due to SG won't make much difference.
> >
> >
> >John.
>
> It's plain amber LME....unhopped. The recipe calls for a little over
> two ounces of Perle (7% AA) for 20 minutes. According to ProMash, in a
> 1.215 wort, that will yield about 32 IBUs. If I dilute to a full five
> gallon boil, the same quantity of hops would generate about 20 IBUs.
> If I go to a full boil, I'd have to increase the Perle from about two
> ounces to 3.5 ounces to keep the IBUs around 32.
>
> Here's the other question......is it even worth it to go to a full
> boil? What exactly is gained? The recipe is for a porter, so doing a
> five gallon boil to avoid darkening the wort isn't an issue.
>
> Lastly, wrt short boil times, you might want to check out the article
> in the latest Zymurgy by Jamil Zainasheff on using only late hop
> additions. It was pretty interesting.
Generally going to a larger boil requires LESS hops, not more. The
lower gravity of the boil allows for more extraction. I think you're
confusing boil volume and final volumes. Make sure you are calculating
first with a boil volume of 2 gal and 5 gal finished volume vs 5 gal
boil with 5 gal finished volume.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 18:05:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On 12 Jul 2006 10:48:07 -0700, <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
>> It's plain amber LME....unhopped. The recipe calls for a little over
>> two ounces of Perle (7% AA) for 20 minutes. According to ProMash, in a
>> 1.215 wort, that will yield about 32 IBUs. If I dilute to a full five
>> gallon boil, the same quantity of hops would generate about 20 IBUs.
>> If I go to a full boil, I'd have to increase the Perle from about two
>> ounces to 3.5 ounces to keep the IBUs around 32.
>
> Generally going to a larger boil requires LESS hops, not more. The
> lower gravity of the boil allows for more extraction. I think you're
> confusing boil volume and final volumes. Make sure you are calculating
> first with a boil volume of 2 gal and 5 gal finished volume vs 5 gal
> boil with 5 gal finished volume.
Yeah, I think they messed something up or got something backwards. The
utilization should definitely go up for a full boil, not down. That's also
a much bigger difference than I would expect. Those numbers are about an 80%
increase, I would assume something more like a 10% - 15% decrease. Off the
top of my head, I'd say something like 1.75 oz of hops would make sense.
It's tough to guess without seeing the original recipe though.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 14:29:06
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> Yeah, I think they messed something up or got something backwards. The
> utilization should definitely go up for a full boil, not down. That's
> also a much bigger difference than I would expect.
OK, just to get a sanity check, I went into ProMash and set up a 5 gallon
recipe to get something like the OP's numbers. I came up with 12 lbs of
LME, giving 1.084 (close enough for me), and 2 oz of Perle (pellet) at 7.0%
AA, 20 min boil, yielding 19.8 IBU.
Now, I dropped the batch size to 2 gals. The SG jumps to 1.210, and the
IBUs jump to 32.2. Sound familiar?
Unfortunately, this is *NOT* the way you go about computing this. We are
brewing a 5 gal batch, but 2 gal. We are only *boiling* 2 gals of wort
then adding 3 gals of water. That is, of course, *NOT* the same as a 2 gal
batch size!
This can be a little tricky to do in ProMash because you need to adjust the
*WORT SIZE* not the batch size! You probably have to start with the
Options- >System Settings->Measurements, Sizes and Precision
panel, and *UNCHECK* the "Wort Size Always Equals Batch Size" box. This
allows you to set a wort size in the recipe calculator. (Without doing
this, the wort size is always the same as the batch size, and the "Wort
Size" box is grayed out.)
Now, reset the *BATCH* size to 5 gals, leaving the *WORT* size at 2 gals.
The SG is still 1.084, but the IBU yield drops to only 12.9 IBUs. To get
the same IBU in a 2 gal boil as a 5 gal boil (still 20 mins), you would
have to increase the hops to just over 3 oz. Alternatively, you could keep
the 2 oz the same, and increase the boil time from 20 mins to 30 mins to
get the same yield.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:34:04
From: Jim Stansell
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:29:06 -0500, Larry Bristol
<larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>OK, just to get a sanity check, I went into ProMash and set up a 5 gallon
>recipe to get something like the OP's numbers. I came up with 12 lbs of
>LME, giving 1.084 (close enough for me), and 2 oz of Perle (pellet) at 7.0%
>AA, 20 min boil, yielding 19.8 IBU.
>
>Now, I dropped the batch size to 2 gals. The SG jumps to 1.210, and the
>IBUs jump to 32.2. Sound familiar?
>
>Unfortunately, this is *NOT* the way you go about computing this. We are
>brewing a 5 gal batch, but 2 gal. We are only *boiling* 2 gals of wort
>then adding 3 gals of water. That is, of course, *NOT* the same as a 2 gal
>batch size!
>
>This can be a little tricky to do in ProMash because you need to adjust the
>*WORT SIZE* not the batch size! You probably have to start with the
> Options->System Settings->Measurements, Sizes and Precision
>panel, and *UNCHECK* the "Wort Size Always Equals Batch Size" box. This
>allows you to set a wort size in the recipe calculator. (Without doing
>this, the wort size is always the same as the batch size, and the "Wort
>Size" box is grayed out.)
>
>Now, reset the *BATCH* size to 5 gals, leaving the *WORT* size at 2 gals.
>The SG is still 1.084, but the IBU yield drops to only 12.9 IBUs. To get
>the same IBU in a 2 gal boil as a 5 gal boil (still 20 mins), you would
>have to increase the hops to just over 3 oz. Alternatively, you could keep
>the 2 oz the same, and increase the boil time from 20 mins to 30 mins to
>get the same yield.
Yup, I already realized that as per my post to Brian below.....thanks
for confirming my error.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 14:41:06
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Partial Boil to Full Boil
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Jim Stansell wrote:
> Yup, I already realized that as per my post to Brian below.....thanks
> for confirming my error.
Ya' know, ya' gotta be quick in this newsgroup if ya' wanna post a
SCOOP! :-)
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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