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Main
Date: 12 Jul 2006 07:34:34
From: GeoffT
Subject: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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I just salvaged a fridge which I can use exclusively for brewing. So,
time to get a lager on the go. I reckon if I get an Oktoberfest started
now I can lager it for a couple of months until ober by which time
it should be pretty good. I've only ever done a partial mash lager
before which was pretty slapdash. I managed to ferment it cold (it was
in March) but didn't have the facility to lager. It still turned out
OK, though.
This time I want to try a decion mash, just to expand my brewing
repertoire. Seeing as it's my first time I'm going to keep it simple
with a single decion. I'm thinking I will infuse to a protein rest
at 50C (122F) for 30 minutes then a saccharification rest at 66C (151F)
for an hour. Does this seem wise? Also, should I protein rest for the
full half hour before pulling the decion? Then, raise the decion
to saccharification temp before boiling it for 15 minutes?
My recipe will be something like this:
Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) UK (2.0 EBC) Grain 53.0 %
6 lbs 3.2 oz Munich Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain 47.0 %
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 13.1 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802) Yeast-Lager
I plan to do a one gallon starter. I'm using this yeast because I was
pleased with how active it was the last time I used it. I plan to
ferment it at around 10c (50F) then lager at as cold as the fridge will
go until ober!
Any tips for success are greatly appreciated!
Geoff
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:59:55
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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Denny Conn wrote:
>
> GeoffT wrote:
>
> > Actually that was a mistake, it's German pils malt.
> >
> > Maybe I'll just skip the protein rest and do a beta alpha.
>
> I've been using Weyermann and Durst pils malts without a protein rest
> and don't see any need for one with them. And why bother with the beta
> glucan rest? I'd just mash in at 146 for the first step and shoot for
> 158 or so for the next step.
And, of course, I wouldn't bother with a decion....;)
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:59:22
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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GeoffT wrote:
> Actually that was a mistake, it's German pils malt.
>
> Maybe I'll just skip the protein rest and do a beta alpha.
I've been using Weyermann and Durst pils malts without a protein rest
and don't see any need for one with them. And why bother with the beta
glucan rest? I'd just mash in at 146 for the first step and shoot for
158 or so for the next step.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:51:06
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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After more reading I'm going to do a 60C/70C mash with, perhaps, a
beta-glucanase rest at 40C.
Thanks for the replies
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:35:11
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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> I'd leave out the protein rest..with the UK pils malt, I really doubt
> you'll get any benefit form it. Just do a beta rest and dec up to an
> alpha rest.
>
Actually that was a mistake, it's German pils malt.
Maybe I'll just skip the protein rest and do a beta alpha.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:25:49
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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GeoffT wrote:
> My recipe will be something like this:
>
> Ingredients
>
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 7 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) UK (2.0 EBC) Grain 53.0 %
> 6 lbs 3.2 oz Munich Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain 47.0 %
> 1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 13.1 IBU
> 1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
> 1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802) Yeast-Lager
>
> I plan to do a one gallon starter. I'm using this yeast because I was
> pleased with how active it was the last time I used it. I plan to
> ferment it at around 10c (50F) then lager at as cold as the fridge will
> go until ober!
>
> Any tips for success are greatly appreciated!
I'd leave out the protein rest..with the UK pils malt, I really doubt
you'll get any benefit form it. Just do a beta rest and dec up to an
alpha rest.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:54:39
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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> > Seeing as it's my first time I'm going to keep it simple
> > with a single decion. I'm thinking I will infuse to a protein rest
> > at 50C (122F) for 30 minutes then a saccharification rest at 66C (151F)
> > for an hour. Does this seem wise? Also, should I protein rest for the
> > full half hour before pulling the decion? Then, raise the decion
> > to saccharification temp before boiling it for 15 minutes?
>
> Why a protein rest? I didn't see anything in your recipe that would
> need a protein rest, and doing one when you don't need to can be detrimental.
> The only time you need to do it is if you get under-modified grains (which
> are actually pretty hard to find, you have to go out of your way to order
> them. If you're not sure, then they're probably not under-modified) or if
> you are using a lot of high protein adjuncts.
>
> IMO, you'll be doing more harm than good with a protein rest.
>
>
> John.
I was under the impression pilsner malt was supposed to be protein
rested as a matter of course?
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 16:08:25
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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On 12 Jul 2006 08:54:39 -0700, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I was under the impression pilsner malt was supposed to be protein
> rested as a matter of course?
Maybe 10+ years ago, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Almost
all malts these days are fully modified, which means that the proteins
have already been taken care of. IMO, whatever source (Papazian book?)
told you to always use a protein rest for pilsner malt is probably out
of date.
At least that's my understanding. I'm always willing to be corrected if
there is something I'm missing.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:27:33
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
> On 12 Jul 2006 08:54:39 -0700, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I was under the impression pilsner malt was supposed to be protein
> > rested as a matter of course?
>
> Maybe 10+ years ago, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Almost
> all malts these days are fully modified, which means that the proteins
> have already been taken care of. IMO, whatever source (Papazian book?)
> told you to always use a protein rest for pilsner malt is probably out
> of date.
>
> At least that's my understanding. I'm always willing to be corrected if
> there is something I'm missing.
No correction needed, John. Many people are laboring under the old
misconception that if you use pils malt you need aprotein rest...NOT
SO! Every pils I made last winter was either a single infusion or a
beta/alpha step mash, without a protein rest. Every batch came out
crystal clear.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 18:21:17
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
>No correction needed, John. Many people are laboring under the old
>misconception that if you use pils malt you need aprotein rest...NOT
>SO! Every pils I made last winter was either a single infusion or a
>beta/alpha step mash, without a protein rest. Every batch came out
>crystal clear.
Some of the British malt I've gotten over the past
10 years, however, seemed to need a protein rest--
lots of break material, and cloudy (not chill haze)
resulting beer.
I beleive it was Al Korzonas who recommended doing
a stright infusion when you get a new sack of grain,
then assess whether you think it would benefit from
a protein rest. In most cases these days more grain
is suitable without doing a protein rest than otherwise,
but blindly following any generalizations can lead to
problems.
--
Joel Plutchak "Never argue with a fool; people watching might not
plutchak at [...] be able to tell the difference." (author unknown)
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 09:46:57
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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Joel wrote:
> I beleive it was Al Korzonas who recommended doing
> a stright infusion when you get a new sack of grain,
> then assess whether you think it would benefit from
> a protein rest. In most cases these days more grain
> is suitable without doing a protein rest than otherwise,
> but blindly following any generalizations can lead to
> problems.
I completely agree, Joel, and that's exactly what I do. I don't think
ANYONE should blindly follow generalizations, whethern the
generalization says "do it" or "don't do it". Take the facts into
consideration, experiment, and do what seems right. Case in point...I
recently got a new sack of Weyermann pils malt. I was gonna make a
tripel, so I decided to do a 131 protein rest for the hell of it. Beer
turned out VERY cloudy. Next time through, same recipe, single
infusion...cleared great! Now, I'm not saying then pretoin rest made the
beer cloudy, but it certainly didn't need the rest. If I would have
done the single infusion first, I would have known...
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:50:49
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
On 12 Jul 2006 07:34:34 -0700, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com > wrote:
> This time I want to try a decion mash, just to expand my brewing
> repertoire.
You can certainly try it if you just want to experience something different,
however personally I think it's a waste of time.
> Seeing as it's my first time I'm going to keep it simple
> with a single decion. I'm thinking I will infuse to a protein rest
> at 50C (122F) for 30 minutes then a saccharification rest at 66C (151F)
> for an hour. Does this seem wise? Also, should I protein rest for the
> full half hour before pulling the decion? Then, raise the decion
> to saccharification temp before boiling it for 15 minutes?
Why a protein rest? I didn't see anything in your recipe that would
need a protein rest, and doing one when you don't need to can be detrimental.
The only time you need to do it is if you get under-modified grains (which
are actually pretty hard to find, you have to go out of your way to order
them. If you're not sure, then they're probably not under-modified) or if
you are using a lot of high protein adjuncts.
IMO, you'll be doing more harm than good with a protein rest.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:37:42
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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> 1) Mash in @ 128F, let rest for 20 minutes (30 minutes if using
> undermodified grains)
> 2) Take 40% of the mash, heat in a pot to 155F, and let rest for 20
> minutes in the pot. Take only enough liquid to cover the grain plus
> about 1/4 inch.
> 3) Bring decion to boil for 30 minutes, stirring almost
> continuously.
> 4) Add decion back to mash to raise mash temp to 149-152 F and let
> rest for 45 minutes ( this is your main saccharification rest)
> 5) Take 1/3 of the mash and bring to boil in a pot for 20-30 minutes
> Take ONLY enough liquid to cover the grain. Again, stir almost
> continuously to prevent scorching the grain.
> 6) Add decion back to mash to reach 158-163 F, rest until
> saccharification is complete (30 - 60 minutes) This is not really
> necessary because you will probably be closer to 165F and virtually no
> alpha amylase conversion occurs above 160F.
> 7) Heat up to 168F for mashout. If you can't get up to 168, try to get
> to at least 160 or you will probably lose some body to the beer as some
> sugars and proteins wont wash off, especially following a decion.
>
> Hope this helps. There is no need to bring the rest of your mash up to
> 150 while boiling your decion, the decion will raise the mash
> temp when you add it back to the mash.
>
> Dave
Thanks that does help. I think I'm going to skip the alpha rest unless
it's necessary. I will do a mash-out though.
Geoff.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:28:59
From: Dave
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
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1) Mash in @ 128F, let rest for 20 minutes (30 minutes if using
undermodified grains)
2) Take 40% of the mash, heat in a pot to 155F, and let rest for 20
minutes in the pot. Take only enough liquid to cover the grain plus
about 1/4 inch.
3) Bring decion to boil for 30 minutes, stirring almost
continuously.
4) Add decion back to mash to raise mash temp to 149-152 F and let
rest for 45 minutes ( this is your main saccharification rest)
5) Take 1/3 of the mash and bring to boil in a pot for 20-30 minutes
Take ONLY enough liquid to cover the grain. Again, stir almost
continuously to prevent scorching the grain.
6) Add decion back to mash to reach 158-163 F, rest until
saccharification is complete (30 - 60 minutes) This is not really
necessary because you will probably be closer to 165F and virtually no
alpha amylase conversion occurs above 160F.
7) Heat up to 168F for mashout. If you can't get up to 168, try to get
to at least 160 or you will probably lose some body to the beer as some
sugars and proteins wont wash off, especially following a decion.
Hope this helps. There is no need to bring the rest of your mash up to
150 while boiling your decion, the decion will raise the mash
temp when you add it back to the mash.
Dave
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:27:57
From: Dave
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
1) Mash in @ 128F, let rest for 20 minutes (30 minutes if using
undermodified grains)
2) Take 40% of the mash, heat in a pot to 155F, and let rest for 20
minutes in the pot. Take only enough liquid to cover the grain plus
about 1/4 inch.
3) Bring decion to boil for 30 minutes, stirring almost
continuously.
4) Add decion back to mash to raise mash temp to 149-152 F and let
rest for 45 minutes ( this is your main saccharification rest)
5) Take 1/3 of the mash and bring to boil in a pot for 20-30 minutes
Take ONLY enough liquid to cover the grain. Again, stir almost
continuously to prevent scorching the grain.
6) Add decion back to mash to reach 158-163 F, rest until
saccharification is complete (30 - 60 minutes) This is not really
necessary because you will probably be closer to 165F and virtually no
alpha amylase conversion occurs above 160F.
7) Heat up to 168F for mashout. If you can't get up to 168, try to get
to at least 160 or you will probably lose some body to the beer as some
sugars and proteins wont wash off, especially following a decion.
Hope this helps. There is no need to bring the rest of your mash up to
150 while boiling your decion, the decion will raise the mash
temp when you add it back to the mash.
Dave
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 10:42:24
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
GeoffT wrote:
> I understand that some think there is no need for the decion but as
> I originally said, I just fancy trying it.
And that is the BEST reason to do one! Have a great time....
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 10:31:44
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
This link got me thinking about a b-g rest :
http://realbeer.com/spencer/FAQ/Fix-mash.html
The oven decion sounds interesting too.
I understand that some think there is no need for the decion but as
I originally said, I just fancy trying it.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 17:55:34
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
On 12 Jul 2006 10:31:44 -0700, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com > wrote:
> This link got me thinking about a b-g rest :
> http://realbeer.com/spencer/FAQ/Fix-mash.html
Notice the date... 12 years ago. That's a *long* time in homebrewing terms.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 10:08:08
From: mreckt
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 08:54:39 -0700, <sonic_death_monkey@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I was under the impression pilsner malt was supposed to be protein
> > rested as a matter of course?
>
> Maybe 10+ years ago, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Almost
> all malts these days are fully modified, which means that the proteins
> have already been taken care of. IMO, whatever source (Papazian book?)
> told you to always use a protein rest for pilsner malt is probably out
> of date.
>
> At least that's my understanding. I'm always willing to be corrected if
> there is something I'm missing.
I was under the impression that the German and Czech pilsner malts had
a higher protein content than the UK and Belgian pilsner malts, but
still not enough to worry about.
If you want to try a decion to see how (or if) it changes the flavor
of your beer, why not use it to get from saccarification temperature to
mash-out? I have made two different lagers in the past year using an
"oven decion" to do just that. I can post details if anyone is
interested, but I basically waited about 30 minutes after reaching my
target saccarification temperature, then pulled a decion and placed
it in several casserole bowls (with glass lids) in a pre-heated oven. I
adjusted the temperature periodically to keep them at a nice boil (as
visible through the lid) for the next hour, then added them back to the
mash to bring the temperature up to around 168F. No constant
baby-sitting (watching and stirring) and no scorching--damn, a real
decion is a pain-in-the-arse at the homebrew level.
I have only tapped one of the two lagers on which I did the oven
decion. A dopplebock tapped in March received favorable comments
from friends and family (of course, I think it tastes great too!). An
Oktoberfest brewed in March is lagering in a corny keg in the serving
fridge and will be tapped Labor Day weekend.
--
Mark Recktenwald
Stow, Ohio, USA
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 10:09:40
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
GeoffT wrote:
>
> I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
> protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
These days, I think you'd have a really hard time finding one that does!
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 17:44:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:09:40 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> GeoffT wrote:
>>
>> I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
>> protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
>
> These days, I think you'd have a really hard time finding one that does!
There was a LHBS in texas that sold undermodified grains. Didn't they claim
to be one of the only sources, or am I thinking of that yeast strain that
they had exclusive rights to?
John.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 13:11:31
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:09:40 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote:
>
>>GeoffT wrote:
>>
>>>I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
>>>protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
>>
>>These days, I think you'd have a really hard time finding one that does!
>
>
> There was a LHBS in texas that sold undermodified grains. Didn't they claim
> to be one of the only sources, or am I thinking of that yeast strain that
> they had exclusive rights to?
That was St. Pat's -- but you can get the undermodified Moravian that
they sold from other places as well.
In any case, no *decion* was required -- only a protein rest. I'm not
even convinced THAT was really required because I forgot about it on
more than one occasion and experienced no problems with the final product.
Cheers -- tAfkaks
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 11:30:32
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:09:40 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote:
> >
> >>GeoffT wrote:
> >>
> >>>I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
> >>>protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
> >>
> >>These days, I think you'd have a really hard time finding one that does!
> >
> >
> > There was a LHBS in texas that sold undermodified grains. Didn't they claim
> > to be one of the only sources, or am I thinking of that yeast strain that
> > they had exclusive rights to?
>
> That was St. Pat's -- but you can get the undermodified Moravian that
> they sold from other places as well.
>
> In any case, no *decion* was required -- only a protein rest. I'm not
> even convinced THAT was really required because I forgot about it on
> more than one occasion and experienced no problems with the final product.
I didn't mean to say that it was unavailable...only that it's hard to
find.
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 19:41:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:30:32 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>>
>> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:09:40 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote:
>> >
>> >>GeoffT wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
>> >>>protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
>> >>
>> >>These days, I think you'd have a really hard time finding one that does!
>> >
>> >
>> > There was a LHBS in texas that sold undermodified grains. Didn't they claim
>> > to be one of the only sources, or am I thinking of that yeast strain that
>> > they had exclusive rights to?
>>
>> That was St. Pat's -- but you can get the undermodified Moravian that
>> they sold from other places as well.
>>
>> In any case, no *decion* was required -- only a protein rest. I'm not
>> even convinced THAT was really required because I forgot about it on
>> more than one occasion and experienced no problems with the final product.
>
> I didn't mean to say that it was unavailable...only that it's hard to
> find.
I agree completely. My point was that if St Pats claimed to be the only
source for Moravian undermodified grain... that would show how few places
carry that sort of thing. I was just trying to back up what you were saying,
not disagree with it. ;)
FWIW, I was probably thinking of the yeast though. There was some ingredient
that they said they were the only place you could buy it from.
John.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 16:38:39
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
[snip]
>
> FWIW, I was probably thinking of the yeast though. There was some ingredient
> that they said they were the only place you could buy it from.
>
>
> John.
I believe that was the Budvar yeast -- WYeast banked and produced it for
them.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 12:46:03
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I agree completely. My point was that if St Pats claimed to be the only
> source for Moravian undermodified grain... that would show how few places
> carry that sort of thing. I was just trying to back up what you were saying,
> not disagree with it. ;)
Sorry...I'm a bit out of gruntlement today...;)
> FWIW, I was probably thinking of the yeast though. There was some ingredient
> that they said they were the only place you could buy it from.
Oh, they said LOTS of stuff....
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 19:48:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:46:03 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
>> FWIW, I was probably thinking of the yeast though. There was some ingredient
>> that they said they were the only place you could buy it from.
>
> Oh, they said LOTS of stuff....
Yeah, no kidding. ;)
John.
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| |
Date: 19 Jul 2006 03:07:00
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest with a decoction
|
I emailed brupaks and they said their pils malt doesn't require a
protein rest. I'm glad you guys are here!
|
|
