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Main
Date: 28 Nov 2006 01:33:59
From:
Subject: Noob question
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I've just started home brewing and I'm keen to get onto half mash. So,
I'll need a boiler or a v large pan and the former seems like the most
convenient option. Will a Burco-type tea urn do the job for boiling
grains and malt extract?
thanks in advance
Antony
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 04:21:46
From: Ken Kose
Subject: Re: Noob question
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antony.adshead@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
> I've just started home brewing and I'm keen to get onto half mash. So,
> I'll need a boiler or a v large pan and the former seems like the most
> convenient option. Will a Burco-type tea urn do the job for boiling
> grains and malt extract?
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Antony
Antony,
See http://home.wowway.com/~kkociolek8577/. This is the system I use.
It's not hard to build and has worked well for me.
Ken
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:55:06
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:44:48 +0000, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> If it's pre-hopped then you can go really short on the boil time. In that
> case the only thing you're really worried about is sanitizing the wort and
> any flavor/aroma hop additions you use (typically of much shorter duration
> than bitterness additions).
>
> There are some people who brew pre-hopped kit beers without boiling at
> all, although that's not how I would do it (I tend to modify most recipes,
> even kit ones, and would want to customize it with at least some
> flavor/aroma hops). If you don't boil you're pretty much stuck with the
> exact recipe the company put together. Some people like that though,
> since it cuts out a lot of time.
Our old friend Graham suggests simmering hopped kits but as you said,
I just followed the recipe on the can which says dissolve kit and 1kg
brewing sugar in 2 litres of hot water and top up with hold/cold
water to 23 litres to reach pitching temp. I did that with my first
kit and as you prolly remember, results were so-so, prolly because I
misread the thermometer! This time I made a stout but discarded the
kit yeast and used Safale S-04, which took off quite quickly even just
pitching straight from the packet. For my next (next next perhaps) kit I
want to use a 1.5kg can of LME instead of the dried malt I was using and
throw in some extra hops. I'm just beginning so wanted to ease in slowly.
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:09:04
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:05:06 +0000, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains) but
>> if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long? Could one
>> get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long enough for
>> the hops?
>
> Utilization (how much bitterness you get from the hops) versus time is
> basically a curve. Most of the bitterness has been extracted (isomerized)
> by 60 minutes. From 60 to 90 minutes you get a little bit more (but you
> probably won't miss it if you wanted to stop at 60). Beyond 90 minutes
> you don't really get enough additional bitterness to bother with.
>
> There are other things that happen during the boil with an all grain batch
> besides getting bitterness from the hops, so boil times there tend to be
> higher.
I think I'm just going to experiment with this. I may do one batch at 60
minutes, see how it turns out and do another batch with a longer boil and
see if I can notice any difference. I may even be tempted to do a shorter
boil to see what effect that has, especially since the kit is already
hopped. I recall having one reply and the poster (I'll get shot for
forgetting who, but I did save his post) mentioned he did between 15-60
minute extract boils.
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:44:48
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:09:04 +0000 (UTC), <rondonjin@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I think I'm just going to experiment with this. I may do one batch at 60
> minutes, see how it turns out and do another batch with a longer boil and
> see if I can notice any difference. I may even be tempted to do a shorter
> boil to see what effect that has, especially since the kit is already
> hopped. I recall having one reply and the poster (I'll get shot for
> forgetting who, but I did save his post) mentioned he did between 15-60
> minute extract boils.
If it's pre-hopped then you can go really short on the boil time. In that
case the only thing you're really worried about is sanitizing the wort
and any flavor/aroma hop additions you use (typically of much shorter
duration than bitterness additions).
There are some people who brew pre-hopped kit beers without boiling at all,
although that's not how I would do it (I tend to modify most recipes, even
kit ones, and would want to customize it with at least some flavor/aroma
hops). If you don't boil you're pretty much stuck with the exact recipe
the company put together. Some people like that though, since it cuts
out a lot of time.
John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:45:35
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:33:32 +0000, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains) but
>> if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long? Could one
>> get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long enough for
>> the hops?
>
> IMO 60 minutes is a good boil time for extract beers. Longer boils are
> typical of all grain batches (90+).
>
> Again, I don't mean to offend anyone who happens to be a big Wheeler fan,
> but do you have any other books?
I wouldn't say I'm a fan, it's just one I happened to pick up on one
of my rare trips back to the UK and one that has been well thumbed but
never put into practice over the years.
I may order one or two more CAMRA books in the near future and any
other British ones I can lay my hands on. I don't want to offend any
of our American readers but I can't get my head around your short
measure gallons :-) If I get a British book I know I can get recipes
for a full 5 Imperial gallon/23 litre brew :-) If I'm going to spend
time brewing I may as well get as much liquid out of it as possible!
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:40:30
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:45:35 +0000 (UTC), <rondonjin@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I wouldn't say I'm a fan, it's just one I happened to pick up on one
> of my rare trips back to the UK and one that has been well thumbed but
> never put into practice over the years.
>
> I may order one or two more CAMRA books in the near future and any
> other British ones I can lay my hands on. I don't want to offend any
> of our American readers but I can't get my head around your short
> measure gallons :-) If I get a British book I know I can get recipes
> for a full 5 Imperial gallon/23 litre brew :-) If I'm going to spend
> time brewing I may as well get as much liquid out of it as possible!
I think it may be beneficial to check out a really good modern book for
procedures/technique/advice, even if you don't want to use the recipes
in it.
John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 02:06:59
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:02:57 -0800, harvestwind_73 wrote:
> The long boil isnt the benefit of the grains; its for the isomerizations
> of the hops. Although if you are using pellet hops, that are more readily
> converted, a 60 minute biol will suffice.
Noted, thanks. What type of hop I use will depend on what's available.
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 17:02:57
From:
Subject: Re: Noob question
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The long boil isnt the benefit of the grains; its for the
isomerizations of the hops. Although if you are using pellet hops, that
are more readily converted, a 60 minute biol will suffice.
Remember though length of the boil will affect your O.G.
Wayne wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:11:14 +0000, Wayne wrote:
>
> > Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just adapt
> > his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The writer is
> > well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why he suggests
> > boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed since that book was
> > published (1993)
>
> One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains)
> but if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long?
> Could one get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long
> enough for the hops?
>
> Cheers
>
> Wayne
> --
> Registered Linux user #375994
> http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 00:23:43
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:11:14 +0000, Wayne wrote:
> Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just adapt
> his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The writer is
> well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why he suggests
> boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed since that book was
> published (1993)
One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains)
but if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long?
Could one get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long
enough for the hops?
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:05:06
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:23:43 +0000 (UTC), <rondonjin@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:11:14 +0000, Wayne wrote:
>
>> Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just adapt
>> his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The writer is
>> well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why he suggests
>> boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed since that book was
>> published (1993)
>
> One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains)
> but if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long?
> Could one get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long
> enough for the hops?
Utilization (how much bitterness you get from the hops) versus time is
basically a curve. Most of the bitterness has been extracted (isomerized) by
60 minutes. From 60 to 90 minutes you get a little bit more (but you
probably won't miss it if you wanted to stop at 60). Beyond 90 minutes
you don't really get enough additional bitterness to bother with.
There are other things that happen during the boil with an all grain batch
besides getting bitterness from the hops, so boil times there tend to
be higher.
John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:33:32
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:23:43 +0000 (UTC), <rondonjin@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:11:14 +0000, Wayne wrote:
>
>> Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just adapt
>> his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The writer is
>> well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why he suggests
>> boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed since that book was
>> published (1993)
>
> One more thing. His recipes call for a 90-minute boil (with grains)
> but if I've steeped the grains first isn't 90 minutes a tad long?
> Could one get away with say an hour boil instead? or is this not long
> enough for the hops?
IMO 60 minutes is a good boil time for extract beers. Longer boils are
typical of all grain batches (90+).
Again, I don't mean to offend anyone who happens to be a big Wheeler fan,
but do you have any other books?
John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:19:10
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Noob question
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Wayne wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:05:56 -0800, alebrewer wrote:
>
> >> I see from posts here everyone talks about steeping grains when extract
> >> brewing. But in my little 'Bible' (CAMRA Guide to Home-Brewing by Graham
> >> Wheeler) he talks about heating water to 50C, adding the extract and
> >> grains and after the wort comes to the boil adding the hops and any
> >> sugars called for by by recipe. So, which way is correct, steeping or
> >> boiling? Does it make a difference? (Apart from having to filter out the
> >> gunk from the wort)
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, it makes a difference. You don't want to get the grains over around
> > 77 C (170 F), let alone let them boil. Exceeding this temperature will
> > result in excessive tannins (think of the bitter taste in coffee or tea)
> > in the beer which is almost always undesireable for any style. In
> > addition, you don't really want to ad the extract while the grains are in
> > the water since they will absorb some of the sugar in the extract. Steep
> > the grains, remove the grains, add the extract, bring to boil, add the
> > hops and boil for the perscribed amount of time.
> > Cool and pitch yeast.
>
> Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just
> adapt his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The
> writer is well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why
> he suggests boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed
> since that book was published (1993)
>
Yes, things have changed. While I am not familar with Graham Wheeler's
book, simialr advice is given by Charlie Papazian in his "Complete
Guide to Homebrewing" at least in the edition that was published in or
around the same time frame. I never quite figured out if it was just
assumed that you would know to remove the grains before they started to
boil or if they really intended to boil the grains. I do know from
experience (I followed Papazian to the letter for my first batches, oh,
so many years ago) that you really want to remove the grains before the
temperature gets over 170 F.
ab
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 00:11:14
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:05:56 -0800, alebrewer wrote:
>> I see from posts here everyone talks about steeping grains when extract
>> brewing. But in my little 'Bible' (CAMRA Guide to Home-Brewing by Graham
>> Wheeler) he talks about heating water to 50C, adding the extract and
>> grains and after the wort comes to the boil adding the hops and any
>> sugars called for by by recipe. So, which way is correct, steeping or
>> boiling? Does it make a difference? (Apart from having to filter out the
>> gunk from the wort)
>>
>>
> Yes, it makes a difference. You don't want to get the grains over around
> 77 C (170 F), let alone let them boil. Exceeding this temperature will
> result in excessive tannins (think of the bitter taste in coffee or tea)
> in the beer which is almost always undesireable for any style. In
> addition, you don't really want to ad the extract while the grains are in
> the water since they will absorb some of the sugar in the extract. Steep
> the grains, remove the grains, add the extract, bring to boil, add the
> hops and boil for the perscribed amount of time.
> Cool and pitch yeast.
Thanks, so when get round to extract brewing (Next year) I'll just
adapt his recipes to this method. Thanks for the explanation. The
writer is well-respected in the home-brewing field so I wonder why
he suggests boiling the grains, or perhaps things have changed
since that book was published (1993)
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:05:56
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Noob question
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Wayne wrote:
>
> I see from posts here everyone talks about steeping grains when extract
> brewing. But in my little 'Bible' (CAMRA Guide to Home-Brewing by Graham
> Wheeler) he talks about heating water to 50C, adding the extract and
> grains and after the wort comes to the boil adding the hops and any
> sugars called for by by recipe. So, which way is correct, steeping or
> boiling? Does it make a difference? (Apart from having to filter out the
> gunk from the wort)
>
Yes, it makes a difference. You don't want to get the grains over
around 77 C (170 F), let alone let them boil. Exceeding this
temperature will result in excessive tannins (think of the bitter taste
in coffee or tea) in the beer which is almost always undesireable for
any style. In addition, you don't really want to ad the extract while
the grains are in the water since they will absorb some of the sugar in
the extract. Steep the grains, remove the grains, add the extract,
bring to boil, add the hops and boil for the perscribed amount of time.
Cool and pitch yeast.
ab
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 23:58:17
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:48:06 -0800, harvestwind_73 wrote:
> Doh! Must be the little buddha statue in my brewery that made me render
> that typo. Funny thing is, when I was a frequent poster here seven years
> ago, I made the same typo and someone made the same comment. Deja Vous!!
>
> Cheers!
Deja Vous, all over again :-)
Now to get serious (If possible!)
I see from posts here everyone talks about steeping grains when extract
brewing. But in my little 'Bible' (CAMRA Guide to Home-Brewing by Graham
Wheeler) he talks about heating water to 50C, adding the extract and
grains and after the wort comes to the boil adding the hops and any
sugars called for by by recipe. So, which way is correct, steeping or
boiling? Does it make a difference? (Apart from having to filter out the
gunk from the wort)
As you can guess, I'm also a noob :-)
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:29:56
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:58:17 +0000 (UTC), <rondonjin@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I see from posts here everyone talks about steeping grains when extract
> brewing. But in my little 'Bible' (CAMRA Guide to Home-Brewing by Graham
> Wheeler) he talks about heating water to 50C, adding the extract and
> grains and after the wort comes to the boil adding the hops and any
> sugars called for by by recipe. So, which way is correct, steeping or
> boiling? Does it make a difference? (Apart from having to filter out the
> gunk from the wort)
Hopefully this won't offend any UK brewers, but IMO I would read the
Wheeler book for his great recipes, and pretty much ignore what he says
about procedures. I've seen quite a few quotes from his books about
technique/procedure that just make me scratch my head and think "Huh?".
John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 15:48:06
From:
Subject: Re: Noob question
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Doh! Must be the little buddha statue in my brewery that made me render
that typo. Funny thing is, when I was a frequent poster here seven
years ago, I made the same typo and someone made the same comment. Deja
Vous!!
Cheers!
Wayne wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:42:42 -0800, harvestwind_73 wrote:
>
> > A muslim or nylon sack works well too. And remember, dont boil the grains,
> > steep the "tea" out of the milled grains at arounf 150-160F. And keep the
> > water level to a minimum when extracting the "tea". After 45 minutes or so
> > of steeping, add more water, your DME or LME and come to a boil.
>
> Ahh, but what do you do when the muslim sack turns to Mecca during the
> boil for its morning prayers? :-) Hate to nit-pick but 'muslin'
>
> Cheers
>
> Wayne
> --
> Registered Linux user #375994
> http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 22:48:00
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Noob question
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:42:42 -0800, harvestwind_73 wrote:
> A muslim or nylon sack works well too. And remember, dont boil the grains,
> steep the "tea" out of the milled grains at arounf 150-160F. And keep the
> water level to a minimum when extracting the "tea". After 45 minutes or so
> of steeping, add more water, your DME or LME and come to a boil.
Ahh, but what do you do when the muslim sack turns to Mecca during the
boil for its morning prayers? :-) Hate to nit-pick but 'muslin'
Cheers
Wayne
--
Registered Linux user #375994
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 14:42:42
From:
Subject: Re: Noob question
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A muslim or nylon sack works well too. And remember, dont boil the
grains, steep the "tea" out of the milled grains at arounf 150-160F.
And keep the water level to a minimum when extracting the "tea". After
45 minutes or so of steeping, add more water, your DME or LME and come
to a boil.
Ken Kose wrote:
> antony.adshead@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
> > I've just started home brewing and I'm keen to get onto half mash. So,
> > I'll need a boiler or a v large pan and the former seems like the most
> > convenient option. Will a Burco-type tea urn do the job for boiling
> > grains and malt extract?
> >
> > thanks in advance
> >
> > Antony
>
> Antony,
>
> See http://home.wowway.com/~kkociolek8577/. This is the system I use.
> It's not hard to build and has worked well for me.
>
> Ken
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