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Main
Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:52:01
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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I made my second starter ever last night using Wyeast Rogue Pacman. I
smacked the pack, left at 70F and it was swelled within 3 hours. So far so
good. Had some other things to do so I didn't make my wort till 4 hours
later so it stayed in the pack for 7 hour total, no big deal I figured. 1
quart of 1.041 wort boiled for 15 minutes, crash cooled it to 72F. This is
where I had a brain fart...I took my 1/2 gallon growler out of the StarSan,
drained it well. Had a few residual bubbles in it as usual, opened my yeast
and pitched it in first not thinking of the possible effect of the acidic
level of StarSan residue. Within less than 30 I had added my wort. I put the
cap on and shook the hell out of it for 3 minutes, took the cap off and
replaced it with an airlock. About every hour for 6 hours after I noticed
the yeast falling out ( dark layer on top like after a ferm is done and
yeast falls out) And shook the growler to suspend the yeast. I did notice
after about the 4th our there was some CO2 coming up through the wort and
out the airlock, but not a whole lot. After 14 hours now it looks like most
of the yeast is still in suspension with a small layer formed on the bottom,
but the activity doesn't look anything like it did when I used Wyeast 3068
and made the wort with wheat 55/45 DME last time. This time I used Pacman
and amber DME. So the question :
Did I possibly kill the viability of some of my yeast by pitching it in the
StarSan residue before the wort, or is this because of the different strains
of yeast and/or DME? The 3068 I made first time was done whithin 24 hours
and I had poured off the spent wort and added more and it kicked in again
almost immediately. Doesn't look like this one will be the same. Supposed to
make a brew tomorrow and just concerned about the viability of my starter
now. Thanx in advance for any help on this issue.
Gerard
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 16:29:41
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:52:01 -0500, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
> Did I possibly kill the viability of some of my yeast by pitching it in the
> StarSan residue before the wort
Maybe, I don't know. I'd doubt it though.
> or is this because of the different strains of yeast and/or DME?
That would be my guess. I think you're just seeing different behaviour
because it's a different yeast and wort makeup.
> The 3068 I made first time was done whithin 24 hours
> and I had poured off the spent wort and added more and it kicked in again
> almost immediately. Doesn't look like this one will be the same. Supposed to
> make a brew tomorrow and just concerned about the viability of my starter
> now. Thanx in advance for any help on this issue.
My best guess is that you'll be fine.
John.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 13:16:49
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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I do NOT use chemicals.Very hot, near boiling ,not what you have from the
tap.If you store the clean glass equipment in a fairly clean place then all
you have to do is to rinse
Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
"are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
>180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
large starter will dominate the environment.--
I know that a lot of folks use these chemicals just as I know that some
believe
-there are limits to yeast reuse
-that a single immersion chiller is the way to go -that a prechiller works
and other "conventional wisdom".
A few years ago someone asked if U could use extract from a bulging can.The
consensus was that it was too dangerous but of course that is another
"conventional wisdom" inaccuracy.
....on further review about the viability of your yeast-smell for alcohol
and pour a little into a spoon and taste-Some yeast are very slow and that
is NOT necessarily a sign that it will be slow with entire wort.
I end by describing what I do and why and U are welcome to do as you
wish.After 12+ years of brewing,I have yet to have a contamination (all not
all my beers tasted as I hoped they would) and I believe it is due to
A)making a vigorous starter and
B)aerating the wort well to allow MY yeasties to
DOMINATE THE ENVIRONMENT!
--
Thanks
Hank
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 19:55:55
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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hankus <hbienert@cox.net > wrote:
> I do NOT use chemicals.Very hot, near boiling ,not what you have from the
> tap.If you store the clean glass equipment in a fairly clean place then all
> you have to do is to rinse
> Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
> "are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
> ...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
> >180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
> NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
> avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
> large starter will dominate the environment.--
> I know that a lot of folks use these chemicals just as I know that some
> believe
> -there are limits to yeast reuse
> -that a single immersion chiller is the way to go -that a prechiller works
> and other "conventional wisdom".
> A few years ago someone asked if U could use extract from a bulging can.The
> consensus was that it was too dangerous but of course that is another
> "conventional wisdom" inaccuracy.
> ....on further review about the viability of your yeast-smell for alcohol
> and pour a little into a spoon and taste-Some yeast are very slow and that
> is NOT necessarily a sign that it will be slow with entire wort.
> I end by describing what I do and why and U are welcome to do as you
> wish.After 12+ years of brewing,I have yet to have a contamination (all not
> all my beers tasted as I hoped they would) and I believe it is due to
> A)making a vigorous starter and
> B)aerating the wort well to allow MY yeasties to
>
> DOMINATE THE ENVIRONMENT!
>
>
"DOMINATE THE ENVIRONMENT!"
Heh. Don't beat around the bush, Doc - what are you really trying to
say?
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 13:20:26
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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TYPO CORRECTION OF LAST POST
I do NOT use chemicals.Very hot, near boiling ,not what you have from the
tap.If you store the clean glass equipment in a fairly clean place then all
you have to do is to rinse as described
Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
"are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
>180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
large starter will dominate the environment.--
I know that a lot of folks use these chemicals just as I know that some
believe
-there are limits to yeast reuse
-that a single immersion chiller is the way to go -that a prechiller works
and other "conventional wisdom".
A few years ago someone asked if U could use extract from a bulging can.The
consensus was that it was too dangerous but of course that is another
"conventional wisdom" inaccuracy.
....on further review about the viability of your yeast-smell for alcohol
and pour a little into a spoon and taste-Some yeast are very slow and that
is NOT necessarily a sign that it will be slow with entire wort.
I end by describing what I do and why and U are welcome to do as you
wish.After 12+ years of brewing,I have yet to have a contamination (although
not
all my beers tasted as I hoped they would) and I believe it is due to
A)making a vigorous starter and
B)aerating the wort well to allow MY yeasties to
DOMINATE THE ENVIRONMENT!
--
--
Thanks
Hank
"hankus" <hbienert@cox.net > wrote in message
news:CSieh.9265$gj2.4392@newsfe23.lga...
>I do NOT use chemicals.Very hot, near boiling ,not what you have from the
>tap.If you store the clean glass equipment in a fairly clean place then
>all you have to do is to rinse
> Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
> "are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
> ...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
> >180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
> NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
> avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
> large starter will dominate the environment.--
> I know that a lot of folks use these chemicals just as I know that some
> believe
> -there are limits to yeast reuse
> -that a single immersion chiller is the way to go -that a prechiller works
> and other "conventional wisdom".
> A few years ago someone asked if U could use extract from a bulging
> can.The consensus was that it was too dangerous but of course that is
> another "conventional wisdom" inaccuracy.
> ....on further review about the viability of your yeast-smell for alcohol
> and pour a little into a spoon and taste-Some yeast are very slow and that
> is NOT necessarily a sign that it will be slow with entire wort.
> I end by describing what I do and why and U are welcome to do as you
> wish.After 12+ years of brewing,I have yet to have a contamination (all
> not all my beers tasted as I hoped they would) and I believe it is due to
> A)making a vigorous starter and
> B)aerating the wort well to allow MY yeasties to
>
> DOMINATE THE ENVIRONMENT!
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> Hank
>
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 07:37:48
From:
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> Did I possibly kill the viability of some of my yeast by pitching it in the
> StarSan residue before the wort, or is this because of the different strains
> of yeast and/or DME? The 3068 I made first time was done whithin 24 hours
> and I had poured off the spent wort and added more and it kicked in again
> almost immediately. Doesn't look like this one will be the same. Supposed to
> make a brew tomorrow and just concerned about the viability of my starter
> now. Thanx in advance for any help on this issue.
I'm sure your starter is just fine... since you're pitching such a
large amount of yeast in such a small volume, they tend to ferment and
flocculate quickly. If your starter is a pint or so, I would just swirl
it to resuspend anything that's dropped out and pitch the whole thing.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:07:41
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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I suspect you have killed the yeast-learn from your mistake and thank you
for bringing up this subject-a long term sore point with me-Why do so many
people use chemicals for other than long run beer lines? I attended a recent
winter party and tasted a lot of bad beer including commercial
kegs...whoever cleaned the lines didn't rinse properly.
I have been a surgeon >40 years and am well versed in the risks of
contamination and what I see done by a lot of homebrewers makes no sense.A
vigorous wash/rinse X3 with hot water WILL clean any glass container and
leave NO residual chemicals.If a stain is visible,then use a vinegar soak
and a few plain water rinses until it looks clean then the triple
rinse.Microbes are everywhere but this simple cleanup will get rid of enough
of them to allow your starter to achieve microbial dominance.
--
Thanks
Hank
"Gerard Eberlein" <dormouse@charter.net > wrote in message
news:o_eeh.443$yA2.301@newsfe03.lga...
>I made my second starter ever last night using Wyeast Rogue Pacman. I
> smacked the pack, left at 70F and it was swelled within 3 hours. So far so
> good. Had some other things to do so I didn't make my wort till 4 hours
> later so it stayed in the pack for 7 hour total, no big deal I figured. 1
> quart of 1.041 wort boiled for 15 minutes, crash cooled it to 72F. This is
> where I had a brain fart...I took my 1/2 gallon growler out of the
> StarSan,
> drained it well. Had a few residual bubbles in it as usual, opened my
> yeast
> and pitched it in first not thinking of the possible effect of the acidic
> level of StarSan residue. Within less than 30 I had added my wort. I put
> the
> cap on and shook the hell out of it for 3 minutes, took the cap off and
> replaced it with an airlock. About every hour for 6 hours after I noticed
> the yeast falling out ( dark layer on top like after a ferm is done and
> yeast falls out) And shook the growler to suspend the yeast. I did notice
> after about the 4th our there was some CO2 coming up through the wort and
> out the airlock, but not a whole lot. After 14 hours now it looks like
> most
> of the yeast is still in suspension with a small layer formed on the
> bottom,
> but the activity doesn't look anything like it did when I used Wyeast 3068
> and made the wort with wheat 55/45 DME last time. This time I used Pacman
> and amber DME. So the question :
>
> Did I possibly kill the viability of some of my yeast by pitching it in
> the
> StarSan residue before the wort, or is this because of the different
> strains
> of yeast and/or DME? The 3068 I made first time was done whithin 24 hours
> and I had poured off the spent wort and added more and it kicked in again
> almost immediately. Doesn't look like this one will be the same. Supposed
> to
> make a brew tomorrow and just concerned about the viability of my starter
> now. Thanx in advance for any help on this issue.
>
> Gerard
>
>
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:02:39
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> I made my second starter ever last night using Wyeast Rogue Pacman. I
> smacked the pack, left at 70F and it was swelled within 3 hours. So far so
> good. Had some other things to do so I didn't make my wort till 4 hours
> later so it stayed in the pack for 7 hour total, no big deal I figured. 1
> quart of 1.041 wort boiled for 15 minutes, crash cooled it to 72F. This is
> where I had a brain fart...I took my 1/2 gallon growler out of the StarSan,
> drained it well. Had a few residual bubbles in it as usual, opened my yeast
> and pitched it in first not thinking of the possible effect of the acidic
> level of StarSan residue. Within less than 30 I had added my wort. I put the
> cap on and shook the hell out of it for 3 minutes, took the cap off and
> replaced it with an airlock. About every hour for 6 hours after I noticed
> the yeast falling out ( dark layer on top like after a ferm is done and
> yeast falls out) And shook the growler to suspend the yeast. I did notice
> after about the 4th our there was some CO2 coming up through the wort and
> out the airlock, but not a whole lot. After 14 hours now it looks like most
> of the yeast is still in suspension with a small layer formed on the bottom,
> but the activity doesn't look anything like it did when I used Wyeast 3068
> and made the wort with wheat 55/45 DME last time. This time I used Pacman
> and amber DME. So the question :
>
> Did I possibly kill the viability of some of my yeast by pitching it in the
> StarSan residue before the wort, or is this because of the different strains
> of yeast and/or DME? The 3068 I made first time was done whithin 24 hours
> and I had poured off the spent wort and added more and it kicked in again
> almost immediately. Doesn't look like this one will be the same. Supposed to
> make a brew tomorrow and just concerned about the viability of my starter
> now. Thanx in advance for any help on this issue.
Star-San is no-rinse. It wouldn't affect your fermentation at all unless
you were somehow using it a a far greater strength than the instructions
specified.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 07:19:38
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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hankus wrote:
> I have been a surgeon>40 years and am well versed in the risks of
> contamination and what I see done by a lot of homebrewers makes no sense.A
> vigorous wash/rinse X3 with hot water WILL clean any glass container and
> leave NO residual chemicals.If a stain is visible,then use a vinegar soak
> and a few plain water rinses until it looks clean then the triple
> rinse.Microbes are everywhere but this simple cleanup will get rid of enough
> of them to allow your starter to achieve microbial dominance.
And later added
> Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
> "are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
> ...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
> >180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
> NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
> avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
> large starter will dominate the environment.--
I agree that most homebrewers go way overboard with their sanitaiton
procedures. I've heard of folks flushing sanitizing solution through
their beer lines on kegging equipment (they need to be cleaned, but
most sanitizing solutions don't clean very well).
But, all of us just want to prevent an infection. We hear the
anecdotes of infections and want to do wverything we can to avoid them.
While I am sure your procedure works well for you, handling water that
is over 120 degrees is difficult (and can be rather dangerous in a 5
gallon glass carboy). At 180 degrees, it will cause second degree
burns. I will fill my plastic bucket with boiling water once a year
(it's over 12 years old, now, and does have some scratches in the
bottom), but I let it cool to lukewarm before I move it. I wouldn't
even try to handle a glass carboy filled with 180 degree water.
Without question, the important part is cleaning. In fact, I wouldn't
be surprised if a good washing wish dish soap followed by multiple
rinses with hot tap water (~120F) would sanitize the equipment well
enough for our purposes. But, idodphor is cheap (actually, I use
Provodone Iodine I get at the drug store) and if a rinse and drain is
going to make sure my equipment is not going to cause a problem, then
I'm going to do it.
All that being said, I wouldn't be surprised that the majority of
homebrewers mix the solutions much stronger than necessary (if a little
is good, then a lot is better), but don't allow adequate contact times
(contact times in the order of 10 minutes are necessary to kill the
bacteria).
ab
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 10:02:02
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mistake While Making A Starter?
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alebrewer wrote:
> hankus wrote:
>> I have been a surgeon>40 years and am well versed in the risks of
>> contamination and what I see done by a lot of homebrewers makes no sense.A
>> vigorous wash/rinse X3 with hot water WILL clean any glass container and
>> leave NO residual chemicals.If a stain is visible,then use a vinegar soak
>> and a few plain water rinses until it looks clean then the triple
>> rinse.Microbes are everywhere but this simple cleanup will get rid of enough
>> of them to allow your starter to achieve microbial dominance.
>
> And later added
>
>> Consider..what are trying to do? kill bacteria and strange yeast which
>> "are everywhere"...and that is why it is wise to do some type of prep.
>> ...yeast die above 120 and beer skunking pathogens can't survive
>> >180.Vinegar is used only to get rid of particulate matter-stain.You will
>> NOT have surgically sterile equipment but what we are trying to do is to
>> avoid a strange organism inocculating the wort.That is why I said that a
>> large starter will dominate the environment.--
>
> I agree that most homebrewers go way overboard with their sanitaiton
> procedures. I've heard of folks flushing sanitizing solution through
> their beer lines on kegging equipment (they need to be cleaned, but
> most sanitizing solutions don't clean very well).
>
> But, all of us just want to prevent an infection. We hear the
> anecdotes of infections and want to do wverything we can to avoid them.
> While I am sure your procedure works well for you, handling water that
> is over 120 degrees is difficult (and can be rather dangerous in a 5
> gallon glass carboy). At 180 degrees, it will cause second degree
> burns. I will fill my plastic bucket with boiling water once a year
> (it's over 12 years old, now, and does have some scratches in the
> bottom), but I let it cool to lukewarm before I move it. I wouldn't
> even try to handle a glass carboy filled with 180 degree water.
>
> Without question, the important part is cleaning. In fact, I wouldn't
> be surprised if a good washing wish dish soap followed by multiple
> rinses with hot tap water (~120F) would sanitize the equipment well
> enough for our purposes. But, idodphor is cheap (actually, I use
> Provodone Iodine I get at the drug store) and if a rinse and drain is
> going to make sure my equipment is not going to cause a problem, then
> I'm going to do it.
>
> All that being said, I wouldn't be surprised that the majority of
> homebrewers mix the solutions much stronger than necessary (if a little
> is good, then a lot is better), but don't allow adequate contact times
> (contact times in the order of 10 minutes are necessary to kill the
> bacteria).
Yep -- with an adequate pitch, your primary fermenter needs to be clean,
not necessarily sanitized. That said, I sanitize it anyway, because it's
a trivial step to undertake.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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