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Main
Date: 15 Aug 2006 20:27:45
From: neal
Subject: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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Hey all,
Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
(1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
minutes. Batch Sparge.
I am using Breiss Annivesary Pils malt, and have used Breiss
standard Pils as well. Even past brews with Weyermann Pils I still
find it difficult to get below 1.015. I believe that I have accurate
thermometers also, the latest brew I used three different thermos to
check temps.
Single and multi-step mash schedules are welcome.
Other than using some kind of very slow upward infusion mash
starting at 140F and moving slowly to 150 over 60 minutes, I'm at a
loss.
Thanks
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 04:31:54
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
"neal" <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1155698865.576684.282320@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>
> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>
> Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
> or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
> good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
> (1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
>
> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
> minutes. Batch Sparge.
>
> I am using Breiss Annivesary Pils malt, and have used Breiss
> standard Pils as well. Even past brews with Weyermann Pils I still
> find it difficult to get below 1.015. I believe that I have accurate
> thermometers also, the latest brew I used three different thermos to
> check temps.
>
> Single and multi-step mash schedules are welcome.
>
> Other than using some kind of very slow upward infusion mash
> starting at 140F and moving slowly to 150 over 60 minutes, I'm at a
> loss.
>
> Thanks
>
My suggestions are,
Mash. Use a two-step mash for beta and alpha, about 1/2 the time spent at
each step and go for 90 minutes total, no less. Step up, not down. Also keep
the mash edging towards the thin side, thick mashes increase dextrins.
Grain bill. Use highly convertable (diastatic) grain such as pils. Don't add
crystal or caramel malt, limit the amount of carapils, but you might need a
bit. Don't add adjuncts such as flaked barley.
Adding easliy convertable, low dextrin adjuncts such as sugar, corn sugar,
rice flakes and maybe corn will help dry the beer out.
Also, as you mentioned, don't use low attenuative yeast. A long primary at
the right temp followed by a couple days at warm temps will get the last bit
out of the yeast.
Remember also, that although Bitburger stick to the purity law thing, they
do use chit malt which is kinda cheating and helps with the light style and
low FG.
Just my opinion. Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 20:57:34
From:
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
Are you using a HUGE starter and aerating the wort? This is critical
for lager yeasts. Also, fermentation temperature is important. Doing a
diacetyl rest helps drop the gravity by a degree or two.
Roger
neal wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>
> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>
> Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
> or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
> good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
> (1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
>
> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
> minutes. Batch Sparge.
>
> I am using Breiss Annivesary Pils malt, and have used Breiss
> standard Pils as well. Even past brews with Weyermann Pils I still
> find it difficult to get below 1.015. I believe that I have accurate
> thermometers also, the latest brew I used three different thermos to
> check temps.
>
> Single and multi-step mash schedules are welcome.
>
> Other than using some kind of very slow upward infusion mash
> starting at 140F and moving slowly to 150 over 60 minutes, I'm at a
> loss.
>
> Thanks
|
| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 11:45:02
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
barnabyr@ureach.com wrote:
> Are you using a HUGE starter and aerating the wort? This is critical
> for lager yeasts. Also, fermentation temperature is important. Doing a
> diacetyl rest helps drop the gravity by a degree or two.
>
> Roger
I like dry beer and always mash at 152F or as close as I can get (only
ales so far). I've noticed that if I pitch an inadequate starter,
esp. for a high gravity beer, I don't get the attenuation I want.
I made 2 IPAs the exact same way back to back with WLP005 - the first
one dropped to 1.008, the second one to 1.018, because I didn't grow
the starter well.
>
>
> neal wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>
>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
>> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>
>> Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
>> or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
>> good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
>> (1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
>>
>> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
>> minutes. Batch Sparge.
>>
>> I am using Breiss Annivesary Pils malt, and have used Breiss
>> standard Pils as well. Even past brews with Weyermann Pils I still
>> find it difficult to get below 1.015. I believe that I have accurate
>> thermometers also, the latest brew I used three different thermos to
>> check temps.
>>
>> Single and multi-step mash schedules are welcome.
>>
>> Other than using some kind of very slow upward infusion mash
>> starting at 140F and moving slowly to 150 over 60 minutes, I'm at a
>> loss.
>>
>> Thanks
>
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 10:10:52
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
neal wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>
> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>
> Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
> or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
> good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
> (1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
Go for about 145/146F. Don't use any cara malts.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 16:01:09
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
On 15 Aug 2006 20:27:45 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
It's not really the schedule so much as the mash temps.
> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
Attenuation is also going to be dependent on the starting gravity and recipe.
You can't really target a specific FG without addressing all of those. IE,
getting below 1.015 if you start at 1.020 is going to be pretty easy. Getting
below 1.015 if you start at 1.100 is going to be a lot harder.
> Here is the last schedule used, and I ended up with a 1.018
> or so with a high attenuating lager yeast with a starter. Obviously
> good for a Bohemian lager, I was hopping to duplicate Gambrinus
> (1.009), Jever Pils (1.011), DAB (1.011) or Bitburger (1.010).
>
> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
> minutes. Batch Sparge.
Don't step up to 158F. That range will encourage complex sugars which will
lower your attenuation. The low mash temp ranges (<=150F) will generally
give you better attenuation, the high mash temps will give you poorer
attenuation. At least with all else being equal. The recipe will also
impact what your attenuation is.
> Other than using some kind of very slow upward infusion mash
> starting at 140F and moving slowly to 150 over 60 minutes, I'm at a
> loss.
Why do you need to slowly move the temp up? IMO, a single step mash
at a low temp will be your best bet (assuming that the temps is at least
high enough that you'll convert). Trying to move the temp up during the
course of the mash is just going to reduce your attenuation.
John.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 19:37:42
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>On 15 Aug 2006 20:27:45 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>
>It's not really the schedule so much as the mash temps.
The term "mash schedule" includes more than simply
a duration. Just like, for example, a person's class
schedule isn't simply a list of start and end times,
but includes what and where.
>> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
>> minutes. Batch Sparge.
>
>Don't step up to 158F. That range will encourage complex sugars which will
>lower your attenuation. The low mash temp ranges (<=150F) will generally
>give you better attenuation, the high mash temps will give you poorer
>attenuation.
The initial low-end rest takes care of that. The sugars
won't somehow "recomplexify" when the temperature is raised
to 158F. The URL <http://byo.com/mrwizard/753.html > has some
decent reading on the subject. The bit halfway down the page
is quite relevant. The OP will certainly want to read it.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 19:56:04
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:37:42 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote:
>>On 15 Aug 2006 20:27:45 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>>> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>>> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>
>>It's not really the schedule so much as the mash temps.
>
> The term "mash schedule" includes more than simply
> a duration. Just like, for example, a person's class
> schedule isn't simply a list of start and end times,
> but includes what and where.
I have no idea what you're trying to say. To me the term "mash schedule"
implies multiple rests. I was saying that the mash temp is more important
in determining the sugar profile than whether you have a single or multi
step mash.
>>> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
>>> minutes. Batch Sparge.
>>
>>Don't step up to 158F. That range will encourage complex sugars which will
>>lower your attenuation. The low mash temp ranges (<=150F) will generally
>>give you better attenuation, the high mash temps will give you poorer
>>attenuation.
>
> The initial low-end rest takes care of that. The sugars
> won't somehow "recomplexify" when the temperature is raised
> to 158F
Only if conversion was complete before you raise the temp. Although, you're
right. I missed where they said it was going to rest at 147-150 for
an hour before stepping up. In that case, the step won't result in
complex sugars, but on the other hand it's probably completely unnecessary.
IMO, a single step mash at 147-150 would be fine.
John.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 06:23:25
From:
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
John Bleichert wrote:
> 1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
> that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
The yeast slurry from a 1 gallon starter, not a full gallon of yeast
slurry.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 12:29:03
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
neal <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>
Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per pound of
grain.
> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>
Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 10:48:39
From: Andy McKellar
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> neal <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash schedules
>> for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high attenuating
>> yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>
>
>
> Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per
> pound of grain.
>
>
>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015, I'd
>> like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>
>
>
> Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and
> pitch a LOT of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large
> starter, perhaps 1 gallon in size (just the yeast, not the expired
> starter wort).
>
... But, be careful about not over-oxygenating, just like anything else
that will dry the beer. This is not a case of, "If <X > is good, more is
better"; you need some residual sugar for flavor and body, even in the
drier beers.
--
-- Andy McKellar
Dallas, TX
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 16:51:35
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
Andy McKellar <mckellar@airmail.net > wrote:
> ... But, be careful about not over-oxygenating, just like anything else
> that will dry the beer. This is not a case of, "If <X> is good, more is
> better"; you need some residual sugar for flavor and body, even in the
> drier beers.
>
The only real risk of adding too much oxygen is if you use pure oxygen.
Barring that, there is nothing to worry about. I use pure oxygen and usually
blast the wort with oxygen [via the stone] for about two minutes maximum and I
do it slowly [such that it produces only a little foam on the surface of the
wort] and that most of the oxygen goes into solution rather than bubble to the
surface.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 12:32:58
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com > wrote:
> neal <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>
>
> Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per pound of
> grain.
>
>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
>> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>
>
> Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
> of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
> in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
>
1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 13:58:19
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
John Bleichert <syborg@earthlink.net > wrote:
> Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> neal <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>>> schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>>> attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>>
>>
>> Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per pound of
>> grain.
>>
>>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
>>> I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>>
>>
>> Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
>> of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
>> in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
>>
>
> 1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
> that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
>
No, I said the yeast from a one gallon starter.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 08:21:41
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
John Bleichert wrote:
> Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>neal <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hey all,
>>>
>>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>>>schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>>>attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>>
>>
>>Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per pound of
>>grain.
>>
>>
>>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
>>>I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>>
>>
>>Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
>>of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
>>in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
>>
>
>
> 1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
> that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
Not a full gallon of slurry -- the slurry from a gallon starter. In
other words, make a gallon (I actually go higher) of extract wort, pitch
your yeast and let it grow to completion at room temp -- I use a stir
plate, but that's entirely optional.
Let the yeast settle out -- I usually crash cool. When you're ready to
pitch, pour off the spent wort and pitch the slurry. Oxygenate well,
ferment cold. The idea is to minimize yeast byproducts, which generally
means lower temps and minimimal yeast growth.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 13:32:51
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> John Bleichert wrote:
>> Thomas T. Veldhouse <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>neal <nrichter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>>>>schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>>>>attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
>>>>
>>>
>>>Mash for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F at a ratio of 1.5 qts water per pound of
>>>grain.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I can't seem to reliably get my attenuation down below 1.015,
>>>>I'd like to duplicate a 1.008 - 1.013 type German Pils.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
>>>of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
>>>in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
>>>
>>
>>
>> 1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
>> that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
>
> Not a full gallon of slurry -- the slurry from a gallon starter. In
> other words, make a gallon (I actually go higher) of extract wort, pitch
> your yeast and let it grow to completion at room temp -- I use a stir
> plate, but that's entirely optional.
>
> Let the yeast settle out -- I usually crash cool. When you're ready to
> pitch, pour off the spent wort and pitch the slurry. Oxygenate well,
> ferment cold. The idea is to minimize yeast byproducts, which generally
> means lower temps and minimimal yeast growth.
>
My bad, I totally mis-read the previous post. I do the same thing,
though I haven't bumped up to a gallon yet. I will on the next brew.
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
|
| | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 08:34:43
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
John Bleichert wrote:
>
>
> My bad, I totally mis-read the previous post. I do the same thing,
> though I haven't bumped up to a gallon yet. I will on the next brew.
>
It's fairly important for lagers -- since it's such a pita, I usually
pitch three beers (in ascending order of gravity) on the same cake.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| |
Date: 15 Aug 2006 22:21:40
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
Steve/Aus wrote:
> My suggestions are,
> Mash. Use a two-step mash for beta and alpha, about 1/2 the time spent at
> each step and go for 90 minutes total, no less. Step up, not down. [snip] Use highly
> convertable (diastatic) grain such as pils.
I'm doing 90 minute mashes... the diastic raiting of the Breiss
malts is good.
Other grains are either Breiss 2-row Bonlander Munich or Weyermann
Vienna. If carapils or carahell is used it's a small amout, less than
10% of mash.
> Also, as you mentioned, don't use low attenuative yeast. A long primary at
> the right temp followed by a couple days at warm temps will get the last bit
> out of the yeast.
Yep. The last one I did had a 5 week primary before lagering. The
high-temp dry out at the end I have done, but still no dry-beers. It
might be that my mash temps were relatively high when I did the dry out
step though.
Do you have specific temps for your schedule?
Thanks Steve.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 13:17:03
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
neal <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
>If carapils or carahell is used it's a small amout, less than
>10% of mash.
I think we need a bit better deinition of "small"
here. To me, 10% crystal malt is a big amount,
something I'd only use in an American-style pale
or amber, or a big chewy beer like an Imperial stout.
ONce you start getting below 5% we're starting to
get into the "small" range.
>Do you have specific temps for your schedule?
As for the question in general, your mash schedule
looks fine to me for lower FGs. Definitely look else-
where on the issue-- yeast volume, aeration, etc.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
|
| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 05:53:14
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
"neal" <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1155705700.513226.284170@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Steve/Aus wrote:
>
> Do you have specific temps for your schedule?
>
Yep, long as you don't mind metric.
First step 64°C
Second Step 70°C (right at the limit here)
Skip the mashout - waste of time.
Also, don't bother with any other temp steps - also a waste of time.
Don't forget the chit malt! :-)
. . Steve.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 19:09:56
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> > Briess Bonlander Munich 2.00 lb
> > Briess Moravian Pils 7.00 lb
> > German Smoked (Bamberg) 1.00 lb
>
> What was your OG?
About 1.050.
Thanks
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 19:05:11
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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On 16 Aug 2006 19:09:56 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>> > Briess Bonlander Munich 2.00 lb
>> > Briess Moravian Pils 7.00 lb
>> > German Smoked (Bamberg) 1.00 lb
>>
>> What was your OG?
>
> About 1.050.
You're at around 70% attenuation then. IMO, try some of the suggestions
from other posters, but if you're looking for a much higher attenuation,
you might want to think about using some simple sugar adjuncts to get
you there. IOW, even with a long low temp mash, I'm not sure if you
can reasonably expect to get a 85+ attenuation from an all malted barley
grain bill. It depends on how dry you are trying to get it.
John.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 19:08:38
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> Also, note that Munich will raise your FG a bit. I routinely do 90-100%
> Munich beers, and it's a struggle to get them to finish reasonably dry.
> The 20% in use here won't have a tremendous effect, but it will have some.
Good advice.
It will be interesting to try 100% Weyermann Vienna (2-3L). Many
report that it can make a dry beer.
The other thing I considered is to use some Rye in the grain bill.
> I will often go three hours for a dry beer -- particularly for an all
> munich beer. An all or mostly pilsener base malt, I might only go 90
> minutes.
Please be specific, what are your temps? Multi-temps?
I'm looking for examples of specific schedules.... both the article
above and the Noonan book led me to the mash schedule I posted, which I
wasn't totally happy with!
Thanks
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 09:17:53
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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neal wrote:
>>Also, note that Munich will raise your FG a bit. I routinely do 90-100%
>>Munich beers, and it's a struggle to get them to finish reasonably dry.
>>The 20% in use here won't have a tremendous effect, but it will have some.
>
>
> Good advice.
>
> It will be interesting to try 100% Weyermann Vienna (2-3L). Many
> report that it can make a dry beer.
>
> The other thing I considered is to use some Rye in the grain bill.
>
>
>>I will often go three hours for a dry beer -- particularly for an all
>>munich beer. An all or mostly pilsener base malt, I might only go 90
>>minutes.
>
>
> Please be specific, what are your temps? Multi-temps?
All Vienna beers can ferment out reasonably dry -- although I seldom
look to go over 75%. I've never really been interested in a super-dry
vienna beer, though. I particularly like vienna for a doppelbock.
I almost never do multi-temp mashes. If I do, the first step is a
protein rest -- and usually I'm just experimenting.
For a dry pilsener-base beer I might start 1t 152 and go for 90 minutes.
Note that I'll lose a couple of degrees over that duration.
For an all munich 150 or less for three hours (if I'm shooting for dry).
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
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Buy several copies today!
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 16:03:27
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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Denny wrote:
>
> Go for about 145/146F. Don't use any cara malts.
You've had sucess with a single infusion temp that low with an all Pils
grain bill?
I'll give it a shot next weekend.
Have you tried this with grain bills of either 2-row Vienna or Munich
at 80+%?
Thanks!
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 15:57:44
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> >> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
> >> minutes. Batch Sparge.
> >
> >Don't step up to 158F. That range will encourage complex sugars which will
> >lower your attenuation. The low mash temp ranges (<=150F) will generally
> >give you better attenuation, the high mash temps will give you poorer
> >attenuation.
>
> The initial low-end rest takes care of that. The sugars
> won't somehow "recomplexify" when the temperature is raised
> to 158F. The URL <http://byo.com/mrwizard/753.html> has some
> decent reading on the subject. The bit halfway down the page
> is quite relevant. The OP will certainly want to read it.
I've read that article before as well as the chapters on mashing and
enzymes in Noonan's book.
You've commented on using cara-malts in other replies as well. (thanks)
The motivation for the orignal post was that I didn't get a low final
gravity for an all-malt grain bill and the mash schedule below +
aeation method below.
Briess Bonlander Munich 2.00 lb
Briess Moravian Pils 7.00 lb
German Smoked (Bamberg) 1.00 lb
Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30 minutes.
Batch Sparge.
Note that I checked the starch conversion with iodine after 60 minutes.
It was good.
Used a large starter.. something approaching a 1/2 pint jelly jar full
of yeast slurry.
I used only air oxygenation methods, shaking viloently etc with lots of
apparent aeration when I transfered the cool wort through a
mesh-screen-funnel into fermenter. Passing liquid through a mesh
screen is going to do a lot of aeration.
So I've:
1) Used no caramalts to introduce complex sugars.
2) Used known good dry temps for 60 minutes.
3) Large starter
4) Decent aeration method (though not as good as oxygen-stone method)
Suggestions? This should have been a fairly dry beer.
Thanks all.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 20:39:00
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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neal wrote:
>>>> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30
>>>>minutes. Batch Sparge.
>>>
>>>Don't step up to 158F. That range will encourage complex sugars which will
>>>lower your attenuation. The low mash temp ranges (<=150F) will generally
>>>give you better attenuation, the high mash temps will give you poorer
>>>attenuation.
>>
>> The initial low-end rest takes care of that. The sugars
>>won't somehow "recomplexify" when the temperature is raised
>>to 158F. The URL <http://byo.com/mrwizard/753.html> has some
>>decent reading on the subject. The bit halfway down the page
>>is quite relevant. The OP will certainly want to read it.
>
>
> I've read that article before as well as the chapters on mashing and
> enzymes in Noonan's book.
>
> You've commented on using cara-malts in other replies as well. (thanks)
>
> The motivation for the orignal post was that I didn't get a low final
> gravity for an all-malt grain bill and the mash schedule below +
> aeation method below.
>
> Briess Bonlander Munich 2.00 lb
> Briess Moravian Pils 7.00 lb
> German Smoked (Bamberg) 1.00 lb
>
> Mash at 147-150F for 60 Minutes. Step up to 158 and rest 30 minutes.
> Batch Sparge.
>
> Note that I checked the starch conversion with iodine after 60 minutes.
> It was good.
>
> Used a large starter.. something approaching a 1/2 pint jelly jar full
> of yeast slurry.
>
> I used only air oxygenation methods, shaking viloently etc with lots of
> apparent aeration when I transfered the cool wort through a
> mesh-screen-funnel into fermenter. Passing liquid through a mesh
> screen is going to do a lot of aeration.
>
> So I've:
> 1) Used no caramalts to introduce complex sugars.
> 2) Used known good dry temps for 60 minutes.
> 3) Large starter
> 4) Decent aeration method (though not as good as oxygen-stone method)
>
> Suggestions? This should have been a fairly dry beer.
Your starter doesn't sound particlarly large, although it's hard to
tell, as "yeast slurry" can be thin, thick or in-between. A big starter
is mighty important for lagers. I try to hit commercial pitching rates
for lagers, which are on the order of 2 million cells/ml/degree plato --
usually, so I go a bit higher still). So for a 1.048 lager wort -- 5
gallons, that's ... a lot (4-500 billion?). So that's around 4-5 tubes
of whitelabs lager yeast (assuming an average of 100b cells/tube) for a
single batch with no starter. Ale pitching rates are lower at
1million/ml/p, but ales are also a lot more forgiving of underpitching,
so you can really go lower.
Also, note that Munich will raise your FG a bit. I routinely do 90-100%
Munich beers, and it's a struggle to get them to finish reasonably dry.
The 20% in use here won't have a tremendous effect, but it will have some.
Ultimately, I'd mash longer -- you will get complete conversion in well
under 60 minutes (you can get conversion in 30 minutes), but for maximum
fermentabilty, mash longer. There's a pretty good explanation here:
http://byo.com/mrwizard/753.html
I will often go three hours for a dry beer -- particularly for an all
munich beer. An all or mostly pilsener base malt, I might only go 90
minutes.
Note also that your aeration method really isn't all that great,
although with an adequate pitch, it's not as important as it might
otherwise be.
Hope that helps -- m
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 00:32:37
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
|
On 16 Aug 2006 15:57:44 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
> The motivation for the orignal post was that I didn't get a low final
> gravity for an all-malt grain bill and the mash schedule below +
> aeation method below.
>
> Briess Bonlander Munich 2.00 lb
> Briess Moravian Pils 7.00 lb
> German Smoked (Bamberg) 1.00 lb
What was your OG?
John.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 15:45:23
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> My bad, I totally mis-read the previous post. I do the same thing,
> though I haven't bumped up to a gallon yet. I will on the next brew.
here is a pitching rate calc that gives slurry volumes in mili-liters.
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php
Thanks Shaggy, your follow up post was more clear.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 15:42:23
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> > Add a LOT of oxygen into your wort before you pitch your yeast and pitch a LOT
> > of yeast. Your Pils requires the yeast from a large starter, perhaps 1 gallon
> > in size (just the yeast, not the expired starter wort).
> >
>
> 1 full gallon of yeast slurry? Really?? How in the hell does one pull
> that off? I'm asking because I'm doing my first Pilsner in September.
I agree that's a crazy amount of yeast. The number I have seen is a
cell count of 240 billion cells. So that is about the equivalent of a
WYeast XL Starter pack that has swelled (100 billion) then used in a
starter to double again.
Assuming a White Labs tube has 75 million cells, then you need about
the volume of 3 tubes of slurry. This is about a 1/2 pint jelly-jar of
solid yeast.
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Date: 16 Aug 2006 15:28:42
From: neal
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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> Steve/Aus wrote:
>
> Yep, long as you don't mind metric.
> First step 64=B0C
> Second Step 70=B0C (right at the limit here)
> Skip the mashout - waste of time.
This is exactly what I did in the mash scheule I posted...
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 09:22:40
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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neal wrote:
>
> Denny wrote:
> >
> > Go for about 145/146F. Don't use any cara malts.
>
> You've had sucess with a single infusion temp that low with an all Pils
> grain bill?
>
> I'll give it a shot next weekend.
>
> Have you tried this with grain bills of either 2-row Vienna or Munich
> at 80+%?
Yeah, I have with both Vienna and Munich. No issues. Why would you not
expect it to work?
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 08:23:32
From: David Edge
Subject: Re: Mash Schedules for high attenuation
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On 15 Aug 2006 20:27:45 -0700, "neal" <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
>Hey all,
>
> Can some serious all-grainers post their favorite mash
>schedules for getting dry beers? Assume you will use a high
>attenuating yeast like WLP802 (75-80%) or WY2042 (73-77%).
We use 64C (147F) only for 75 minutes to get 1039 down to 1004 or 1005
with Nottingham Ale yeast.
Two tips:
lower mash pH will encourage beta amylase activity - we aim for pH5.1
a sloppy mash will increase beta amylase activity by reducing product
inhibition; we use 4l/kg - about 2qts/lb.
David Edge, Derby
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