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Date: 09 Aug 2006 09:19:59
From: Jeff
Subject: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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I remember seeing someone write about making Belgium candy sugar for
brewing, but I am now unable to google it. Does anyone have any info on
this? I seem to remember that the sugar was just sucrose (probably from
beets, not from cane) and that it involved some time in a heavy pot and
then pouring the syrup on a cookie sheet to cool and break up later.
I'm looking to make some of the dark variety and I've attempted to
caramelize the sugar in a pot with little success (I can get no color,
lightly colored, and burnt; but not dark). Also, as you go hotter and
the water evaporates, the texture gets strange and granular; but it's
only at these low moisture points at which you seem to be able to get
it to darken.
Any info or reference link would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--Jeff
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 18:03:32
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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To be honest, it's not for beer, though I wouldn't mind the info for
beer making purposes too. It's a very simple creme soda I make and I
like to caramelize the sugar which makes it sweeter and cotton-candy
like.
I'm glad to have the info on the real syrup now available through B3 -
I'll definitely look it up when I get into a Belgian (sorry about the
spelling) beer brewing phase.
I'll pick up the BYO mag - been meaning to get a subscription to it
anyway. I wonder what is actually in the "real" syrup.
But back to caramelizing sugar - it seems it would have an application
if you wanted to do an addition that only added fermentability and
caramel flavor.
I found a recipe for making plain old caramel - 1c sugar, 1c water; mix
to dissolve and then heat over medium heat without stirring until the
color is achieved. I was using high heat and stirring constantly, so
maybe it'll work. I'll let you know how it comes out.
--Jeff
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 10:21:42
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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Jeff <jjhenze@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1155171812.576372.293100@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> I found a recipe for making plain old caramel - 1c sugar, 1c water; mix
> to dissolve and then heat over medium heat without stirring until the
> color is achieved. I was using high heat and stirring constantly, so
> maybe it'll work. I'll let you know how it comes out.
It will work and it will darken considerably as the temp rises and the water
evaporates. Caramelization really only occurs at temps above boiling which
is what is going on until the water is mostly gone. Keep stirring constantly
so it doesn't burn...
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/candy/caramels-story.html
See the note that 338ºF is the magic temp for pure sugar.
Cheers,
Mike
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 09:54:36
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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"MDixon" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4k0u2jF9shjhU1@individual.net...
>
> Jeff <jjhenze@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1155171812.576372.293100@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > I found a recipe for making plain old caramel - 1c sugar, 1c water; mix
> > to dissolve and then heat over medium heat without stirring until the
> > color is achieved. I was using high heat and stirring constantly, so
> > maybe it'll work. I'll let you know how it comes out.
>
> It will work and it will darken considerably as the temp rises and the
water
> evaporates. Caramelization really only occurs at temps above boiling which
> is what is going on until the water is mostly gone. Keep stirring
constantly
> so it doesn't burn...
> http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/candy/caramels-story.html
> See the note that 338ºF is the magic temp for pure sugar.
Doesn't caramel also require an addition of butter some where in the process
or is that toffee? I seem to remember watching a Good Eats not too far back
where AB caramelized sugar and showed how to get the dark color.
Mark R
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 18:00:22
From: Todd Carter
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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The latest issue (July-August) of Brew Your Own has an explanation of
the rock sugar/syrup confusion in Belgian brewing and also a description
of the process to make your own syrup.
Todd
Jeff wrote:
> I remember seeing someone write about making Belgium candy sugar for
> brewing, but I am now unable to google it. Does anyone have any info on
> this? I seem to remember that the sugar was just sucrose (probably from
> beets, not from cane) and that it involved some time in a heavy pot and
> then pouring the syrup on a cookie sheet to cool and break up later.
>
> I'm looking to make some of the dark variety and I've attempted to
> caramelize the sugar in a pot with little success (I can get no color,
> lightly colored, and burnt; but not dark). Also, as you go hotter and
> the water evaporates, the texture gets strange and granular; but it's
> only at these low moisture points at which you seem to be able to get
> it to darken.
>
> Any info or reference link would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jeff
>
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 14:25:23
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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Todd Carter <txspamcarter@kc.rr.com > wrote in message
news:WopCg.309$zg.93@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The latest issue (July-August) of Brew Your Own has an explanation of
> the rock sugar/syrup confusion in Belgian brewing and also a description
> of the process to make your own syrup.
I didn't see it, but if it said anything about inverting, it was wrong...
This is the proper stuff...
http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788
Cheers,
Mike
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 22:49:05
From: Todd Carter
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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It talks about us Americans getting the wrong idea about candi sugar
being used by Belgians instead of syrup and that syrup is just recently
available in the US - such as your proper stuff.
Also talks about no taste difference between table and beat sugar.
The recipe involves caramelizing table sugar for color and flavor.
Cool, add and heat with water for syrup. Combine with table sugar for
weight to match your beer recipe. Certainly cheaper than rock sugar or
the BBB syrup.
I make no claims about right or wrong - Jeff asked for a recipe.
Read for yourself.
Todd
MDixon wrote:
> Todd Carter <txspamcarter@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:WopCg.309$zg.93@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> The latest issue (July-August) of Brew Your Own has an explanation of
>> the rock sugar/syrup confusion in Belgian brewing and also a description
>> of the process to make your own syrup.
>
> I didn't see it, but if it said anything about inverting, it was wrong...
>
> This is the proper stuff...
> http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
>
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 17:32:52
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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On 9 Aug 2006 09:19:59 -0700, <jjhenze@gmail.com > wrote:
> I remember seeing someone write about making Belgium candy sugar for
> brewing, but I am now unable to google it. Does anyone have any info on
> this? I seem to remember that the sugar was just sucrose (probably from
> beets, not from cane) and that it involved some time in a heavy pot and
> then pouring the syrup on a cookie sheet to cool and break up later.
There have been some pretty good posts about this in the past. What they
sell in homebrew stores as "belgian candy sugar" is really just crystalized
sucrose. It's the same stuff as generic table sugar. Some of the regular
posters on here have said in the past that they can't detect any flavor
difference between the light and dark stuff.
What the belgians actually use is something different though. "Real" belgian
candy sugar is a syrup form of raw sugar (IOW, it's not refined sucrose), and
I do believe there is a difference between light and dark. I don't know
exactly what that difference is though, IE whether it's just caramelized or if
the darker sugar contains molasses, etc. If you show the stuff sold in
homebrew stores to a real belgian brewer, they'd probably laugh.
John.
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 17:04:13
From: Sean
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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yournotauser@gmail.com wrote:
> Mark R wrote:
>
> > Doesn't caramel also require an addition of butter some where in the process
> > or is that toffee? I seem to remember watching a Good Eats not too far back
> > where AB caramelized sugar and showed how to get the dark color.
> >
>
> Toffee uses butter. Caramels like the chewy candies are actually
> called milk caramel and involves pouring milk or cream, your choice, in
> the hot boiling melted sugar. Whoever was the first to do this was
> nuts. The pot needs to be MUCH larger than the volume of sugar and
> cream because the stuff damn near explodes when you pour the cream in.
Very true and I've seen the 2nd/3rd degree burns first hand, no pun, on
a friend's. Dangerous, but doable with the right equipment (deep heavy
bottom pan; think All-Clad). Check out candymaker's copper kettles and
loooong stirring paddles. No dairy needed/wanted in brewing.
> I've tried a hundred times to make caramelized sugar for other projects
> and never get it right. It seems to go from candy glass to light
> golden to burnt in about two seconds.
Get a decent candymaking thermometer, bi-metal or digital thermocouple,
forget about mercury/ alcohol types involving glass. Just another thing
to worry about. Med to med high heat and alot of patience. Also
consider a marble or heat-proof tile as a trivet that will help bring
the progress to a crawl after you approach target temperature and take
it from the heat source. This is how I've made caramel and spun sugar
in the past. I also recommend a pastry brush (natural, not plastic) to
wash sugar crystals from the edge of the pot. Supersaturated sugar
solutions can sieze quite dramatically if a seed crystal is
reintroduced at the wrong time. Fortunately, this is reversable by
reboiling with more water.
HTH,
Sean
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 11:05:22
From:
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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Mark R wrote:
> Doesn't caramel also require an addition of butter some where in the process
> or is that toffee? I seem to remember watching a Good Eats not too far back
> where AB caramelized sugar and showed how to get the dark color.
>
Toffee uses butter. Caramels like the chewy candies are actually
called milk caramel and involves pouring milk or cream, your choice, in
the hot boiling melted sugar. Whoever was the first to do this was
nuts. The pot needs to be MUCH larger than the volume of sugar and
cream because the stuff damn near explodes when you pour the cream in.
I've tried a hundred times to make caramelized sugar for other projects
and never get it right. It seems to go from candy glass to light
golden to burnt in about two seconds.
> Mark R
Bryan
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 04:17:46
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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Since I figured out that caramel is different than caramelized sugar,
it's the latter I'm interested in. Some observations from last night:
- Less is better. It is far easier to caramelize 1/4 cup of sugar than
5 pounds of it. I believe that the heat drops significantly with the
volume, so it's near impossible to keep sufficient temperatures with a
large quantity.
- Don't use water. If the goal is to just caramelize the sugar, water
will prevent that from happening. Even small amounts. If you use water,
you'll have to boil it out if you want anything beyond a very light
amber.
- You want a very heavy pot that is sized right - since (until I figure
a way to do otherwise) you are working with a small amount of sugar,
you want a thick sauce pan that isn't too wide in diameter or too high.
The idea is that you want to have at least a little (1/4") depth to the
sugar in the pan.
- Heat slowly - it'll really go fast once the sugar melts
That said, I'm going to keep working on it. What does inversion do to
sugar? Anything negative? Lots of recipes seem to call for acid to be
added to the sugar. How does inversion affect flavor and fermentability
in brewing?
Another thing I see in recipes is mixing with a smaller quantity of
corn sugar to keep the sugar from being so prone to crystallizing up
(which is also what the acid is for). I take it that using corn sugar
makes this less desirable for use in Belgian beers?
--Jeff
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:50:15
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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On 11 Aug 2006 04:17:46 -0700, <jjhenze@gmail.com > wrote:
> That said, I'm going to keep working on it. What does inversion do to
> sugar? Anything negative? Lots of recipes seem to call for acid to be
> added to the sugar. How does inversion affect flavor and fermentability
> in brewing?
Invert sugar is easier for the yeast to ferment. Actually, given normal
sugar, the first thing the yeast will do is invert it themselves. So if
you invert it before hand you're saving them a little bit of work. I
don't think it really makes much of a difference though. IIRC, adding
acid is what inverts the sugar? (I could be wrong on that though)
John.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 08:04:05
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: Making dark Belgium candy sugar
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Jeff <jjhenze@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1155295065.941654.203730@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> Since I figured out that caramel is different than caramelized sugar,
> it's the latter I'm interested in. Some observations from last night:
>
> - Less is better. It is far easier to caramelize 1/4 cup of sugar than
> 5 pounds of it. I believe that the heat drops significantly with the
> volume, so it's near impossible to keep sufficient temperatures with a
> large quantity.
It may be your stove. The temp of the burner cycles on and off a bit on
electric at certain settings and with a larger quantity a higher temp may be
required.
> - Don't use water. If the goal is to just caramelize the sugar, water
> will prevent that from happening. Even small amounts. If you use water,
> you'll have to boil it out if you want anything beyond a very light
> amber.
I kinda mentioned that. Even in boiling wort, you aren't getting any real
caramelization till the water is gone.
> - You want a very heavy pot that is sized right - since (until I figure
> a way to do otherwise) you are working with a small amount of sugar,
> you want a thick sauce pan that isn't too wide in diameter or too high.
> The idea is that you want to have at least a little (1/4") depth to the
> sugar in the pan.
> - Heat slowly - it'll really go fast once the sugar melts
Very true with candy making.
>
> That said, I'm going to keep working on it. What does inversion do to
> sugar? Anything negative? Lots of recipes seem to call for acid to be
> added to the sugar. How does inversion affect flavor and fermentability
> in brewing?
Inversion takes place with the yeast and invertase, you basically are doing
the work for them. Nothing negative, but no reason to do it unless you
desire to. The stuff from Belgium is not inverted so why should you?
>
> Another thing I see in recipes is mixing with a smaller quantity of
> corn sugar to keep the sugar from being so prone to crystallizing up
> (which is also what the acid is for). I take it that using corn sugar
> makes this less desirable for use in Belgian beers?
I don't see why it would make it less desireable. Also, what recipes? Are
you sure it wasn't corn syrup? If it was for corn syrup it was for candy
making so the sugar did not become grainy. Something you don't care about.
Also most corn syrups contain vanilla, something you don't want.
I've seen cream of tartar added. I'm not sure why exactly, but I do know in
Ginger Beer Plant recipes it helps with head retention.
With a good thermometer the color you are after can be achieved pretty
easily.
http://www.baking911.com/howto/sugar_caramelize.htm
Cheers,
Mike
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