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Date: 02 Dec 2006 20:54:19
From: Washu
Subject: Little help with a belgian please
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I'm all ready to do this years Chimay clone except this year will be
AG. I don't have any Belgian 2-row on hand but have 55 lbs of golden
promise. I like it in my scotch ales so I figure I'll like it in a
belgian. The one thing I don't have on hand and don't plan to buy is
the dark candi sugar. I've thought about using table sugar or brown
sugar, or maybe trying to make some invert sugar. I know the colour
won't be right but I'm more interested in something that tastes good.
Anyone have any suggestions about which to use? Anyone know how to make
dark candi sugar? TIA
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 09:57:53
From:
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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These days the real stuff is available to homebrewers:
www.darkcandi.com
You can get it from the major online homeberw retailers.
I've got a double coming down the pipeline that uses it - pretty tasty.
The stuff is like 60% unfermentable so it contributes a lot of flavor,
unlike the rocks (which you may as well substitute sucrose for).
-Nick
Washu wrote:
> I'm all ready to do this years Chimay clone except this year will be
> AG. I don't have any Belgian 2-row on hand but have 55 lbs of golden
> promise. I like it in my scotch ales so I figure I'll like it in a
> belgian. The one thing I don't have on hand and don't plan to buy is
> the dark candi sugar. I've thought about using table sugar or brown
> sugar, or maybe trying to make some invert sugar. I know the colour
> won't be right but I'm more interested in something that tastes good.
> Anyone have any suggestions about which to use? Anyone know how to make
> dark candi sugar? TIA
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 08:55:50
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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"Washu" <rgrantha@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165121659.766579.8280@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> I'm all ready to do this years Chimay clone except this year will be
> AG. I don't have any Belgian 2-row on hand but have 55 lbs of golden
> promise. I like it in my scotch ales so I figure I'll like it in a
> belgian. The one thing I don't have on hand and don't plan to buy is
> the dark candi sugar. I've thought about using table sugar or brown
> sugar, or maybe trying to make some invert sugar. I know the colour
> won't be right but I'm more interested in something that tastes good.
> Anyone have any suggestions about which to use? Anyone know how to make
> dark candi sugar? TIA
I would just use plain old table sugar. It's doubtful you'd notice a flavor
difference. If you're worried about color contribution, as well as flavor
for that matter, just add an extra ounce of Special B malt. Perfect.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 07:09:15
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> Anyone know how to make dark candi sugar?
I've made dark candi sugar. It's fairly easy. You need a candy thermometer
and you bring regular table sugar to hard crack. Here are more detailed
instructions to follow.
http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/candi_sugar.html
From what I've read on other sites the citric acid (our "sour salt") is not
required but does change the fermentables in the resulting product. I used
it in mine. Can't tell you that it made any difference or not. I found it
at the local grocery store but it wasn't easy to find. I think it was in
the canning section..... I think.
I used parchment paper to line large two pans to pour the hot sugar into to
let it cool. Then I broke it up into one pound packages that I keep in the
freezer. Finding the right combination of shards of this to make one pound
packages was a bit challenging.. and sticky. Next time I'm going to do the
same but with smaller bowls on a scale so I can hit one pound exactly while
it's still hot.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Scott
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 21:10:34
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On 2 Dec 2006 20:54:19 -0800, <rgrantha@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I'm all ready to do this years Chimay clone except this year will be
> AG. I don't have any Belgian 2-row on hand but have 55 lbs of golden
> promise. I like it in my scotch ales so I figure I'll like it in a
> belgian. The one thing I don't have on hand and don't plan to buy is
> the dark candi sugar. I've thought about using table sugar or brown
> sugar, or maybe trying to make some invert sugar. I know the colour
> won't be right but I'm more interested in something that tastes good.
> Anyone have any suggestions about which to use? Anyone know how to make
> dark candi sugar? TIA
The stuff sold as "belgian candi sugar" at most LHBS is essentially just
table sugar. I've seen several posters say that they can't really taste
any difference between the dark and light stuff. Personally, I'd probably
just substitute table sugar for both, it's certainly a lot cheaper than
the stuff they'll try to sell you at the LHBS.
Real belgian candi sugar, on the other hand, is completely different than
what most people in the US use. If you really want to be authentic, this
is probably the stuff you want:
http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788
John.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 19:42:41
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> Real belgian candi sugar, on the other hand, is completely different than
> what most people in the US use. If you really want to be authentic, this
> is probably the stuff you want:
> http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788
I wonder what makes it different. Beet sugar is the same stuff as cane
sugar, except the "other" things each plant contributes. When I see made
from "white" beet sugar I'm assuming it is just as purified as cane sugar
is. So what makes it different than the cane sugar we use here?
I've made my own dark Belgian candi sugar. I have no clue how authentic it
is. But it cost me about 1/5 the price as the stuff in the LHBS and I
actually enjoyed making it too. You have one more element of control over
the final product. When I tried my dark candi sugar it had a significant
taste to it that wasn't like plain table sugar. Could I tell if it
contributed to the end product? I'm not sure, the whole recipe was an
experiment. I enjoyed it in the end but I'll never know from that one
experiment if it was worth the effort compared to plain table sugar. I plan
on trying it again when I start brewing again soon (I just relocated so I've
been dry for a while).
Scott
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 17:38:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:42:41 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> Real belgian candi sugar, on the other hand, is completely different than
>> what most people in the US use. If you really want to be authentic, this
>> is probably the stuff you want:
>> http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6788
>
> I wonder what makes it different. Beet sugar is the same stuff as cane
> sugar, except the "other" things each plant contributes. When I see made
> from "white" beet sugar I'm assuming it is just as purified as cane sugar
> is. So what makes it different than the cane sugar we use here?
I think the real belgian stuff is a caramel syrup made from raw sugar, as
opposed to the highly purified beet/cane sugar we normally get as "rock"
candi sugar (which is nothing more than table sugar).
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 18:11:50
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I think the real belgian stuff is a caramel syrup made from raw sugar, as
> opposed to the highly purified beet/cane sugar we normally get as "rock"
> candi sugar (which is nothing more than table sugar).
So that would make it more like beet molasses then, if such an equivalent
exists?
There is a chemical difference in what it is that I make, but I'm not sure
it's that big of a difference. I add citric acid during the boil and bring
it to hard crack which definitely does a lot of carmelization. So there are
differences beyond plain table sugar. Although I wonder how much it really
contributes.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:22:44
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:11:50 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> I think the real belgian stuff is a caramel syrup made from raw sugar, as
>> opposed to the highly purified beet/cane sugar we normally get as "rock"
>> candi sugar (which is nothing more than table sugar).
>
> So that would make it more like beet molasses then, if such an equivalent
> exists?
>
> There is a chemical difference in what it is that I make, but I'm not sure
> it's that big of a difference. I add citric acid during the boil and bring
> it to hard crack which definitely does a lot of carmelization. So there are
> differences beyond plain table sugar. Although I wonder how much it really
> contributes.
I think adding citric acid is how you make it invert sugar?
John.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 09:42:57
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I think adding citric acid is how you make it invert sugar?
Yep...any acid, really.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 18:38:53
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I think adding citric acid is how you make it invert sugar?
Ya... but that's what I've found on all "make your own Belgian candi sugar"
instructions. So is Belgian candi sugar an invert by default?
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 18:41:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:38:53 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> I think adding citric acid is how you make it invert sugar?
>
> Ya... but that's what I've found on all "make your own Belgian candi sugar"
> instructions. So is Belgian candi sugar an invert by default?
I don't know, but I don't believe whether or not it's invert makes a
big difference. Technically invert sugar is a little easier for the
yeast to ferment, but they actually convert regular sugar over to
invert sugar themselves before they work on it. So, it all ends up as
invert before they turn it into alcohol and CO2.
John.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:12:23
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I don't know, but I don't believe whether or not it's invert makes a
> big difference. Technically invert sugar is a little easier for the
> yeast to ferment, but they actually convert regular sugar over to
> invert sugar themselves before they work on it. So, it all ends up as
> invert before they turn it into alcohol and CO2.
Is that 100%? I mean, I knew it took more effort, but I was also under the
impression the yeasties would nibble more of it if it were an invert. If
it's 100% consumed either way, I don't see the big deal with this Belgian
Candi Sugar stuff. Other than the carmalization of the amber and dark
variety.
Scott
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:17:50
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 18:12:23 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> I don't know, but I don't believe whether or not it's invert makes a
>> big difference. Technically invert sugar is a little easier for the
>> yeast to ferment, but they actually convert regular sugar over to
>> invert sugar themselves before they work on it. So, it all ends up as
>> invert before they turn it into alcohol and CO2.
>
> Is that 100%? I mean, I knew it took more effort, but I was also under the
> impression the yeasties would nibble more of it if it were an invert. If
> it's 100% consumed either way, I don't see the big deal with this Belgian
> Candi Sugar stuff. Other than the carmalization of the amber and dark
> variety.
Beer yeast uses an enzyme (invertase) to convert non-invert sugar into invert
sugar before they will ferment it. I'm pretty sure that they will always do
this.
John.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 08:46:35
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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Scott Lindner wrote:
>
> > I think adding citric acid is how you make it invert sugar?
>
> Ya... but that's what I've found on all "make your own Belgian candi sugar"
> instructions. So is Belgian candi sugar an invert by default?
The rocks are not. I believe the syrup is. AFAIK, invert sugar will
not solidify.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:10:47
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> The rocks are not. I believe the syrup is. AFAIK, invert sugar will
> not solidify.
That must be why I have to freeze it. It wants to ooze and run if I let it
thaw.
So if the only thing that makes this Belgian Candi Sugar stuff special is
the carmelization if it's amber or dark?
Scott
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 08:47:24
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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Scott Lindner wrote:
> So if the only thing that makes this Belgian Candi Sugar stuff special is
> the carmelization if it's amber or dark?
I don't know if you've ever just taken a piece of the amber or dark and
tasted it, but when I did, I didn't detect any flavor due to the color.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:06:42
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:47:24 -0800, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> Scott Lindner wrote:
>
>> So if the only thing that makes this Belgian Candi Sugar stuff special is
>> the carmelization if it's amber or dark?
>
> I don't know if you've ever just taken a piece of the amber or dark and
> tasted it, but when I did, I didn't detect any flavor due to the color.
I think he's talking about the real stuff, as opposed to the colored
rock candi sold in most stores. I think what he's really getting at is if
he wanted to replicate the real belgian sugar, can he just caramelize his
own sugar?
John.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 09:34:17
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I think he's talking about the real stuff, as opposed to the colored
> rock candi sold in most stores. I think what he's really getting at is if
> he wanted to replicate the real belgian sugar, can he just caramelize his
> own sugar?
If he means the candi syrup, yeah, it has a definite intense flavor to
it.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 19:25:12
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> If he means the candi syrup, yeah, it has a definite intense flavor to
> it.
Candi sugar, not syrup. What I've made and have purchased has a definite
flavor to it. I used to get the dark and amber candi sugar at a local asian
grocery, now I make it. What I make and buy tastes about the same, but
there is absolutely a distinct flavor due to the process of changing the
color. But.. I'm starting to think that I can do it in the bottom of the
kettle while mashing instead of ahead of time as a seperate process.
Scott
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 19:23:05
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I don't know if you've ever just taken a piece of the amber or dark and
> tasted it, but when I did, I didn't detect any flavor due to the color.
I have and there's a significant flavor difference. Maybe I'm buying
something different (and making too) than what you guys are finding?
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 10:03:03
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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Scott Lindner wrote:
>
> > I don't know if you've ever just taken a piece of the amber or dark and
> > tasted it, but when I did, I didn't detect any flavor due to the color.
>
> I have and there's a significant flavor difference. Maybe I'm buying
> something different (and making too) than what you guys are finding?
Sounds like it...I'm referring to the Brewer's Garden brand candi suagr
that you see in brew shops.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 11:06:25
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> Sounds like it...I'm referring to the Brewer's Garden brand candi suagr
> that you see in brew shops.
So what do we do now? It sounds like there might be a difference in what
people think is the same product. What I made sort of tasted like a toffee.
Scott
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:04:05
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:06:25 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> Sounds like it...I'm referring to the Brewer's Garden brand candi suagr
>> that you see in brew shops.
>
> So what do we do now? It sounds like there might be a difference in what
> people think is the same product. What I made sort of tasted like a toffee.
I think there are definitely several different things being discussed. Some
are talking about the rock candi sugar sold in LHBSs (aka Denny's comments
above). That stuff is nothing more than table sugar in a solid rock form,
and as far as I can tell the "dark/amber" version is just colored. You're
talking about caramelizing sugar at home. IMO, what you're doing is probably
a lot closer to what is really used in Belgian brewing (which is some sort
of caramelized sugar syrup). The rock candi sold at LHBSs is pretty much a
gimmick.
John.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 13:21:44
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I think there are definitely several different things being discussed.
> Some
> are talking about the rock candi sugar sold in LHBSs (aka Denny's comments
> above). That stuff is nothing more than table sugar in a solid rock form,
> and as far as I can tell the "dark/amber" version is just colored. You're
> talking about caramelizing sugar at home. IMO, what you're doing is
> probably
> a lot closer to what is really used in Belgian brewing (which is some sort
> of caramelized sugar syrup). The rock candi sold at LHBSs is pretty much
> a
> gimmick.
So what you're saying is both items have the same name and purpose, but one
version of it isn't authentic? I can buy that.
Scott
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 20:44:53
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:21:44 -0700, <nospam@noemail.com > wrote:
>> I think there are definitely several different things being discussed.
>> Some
>> are talking about the rock candi sugar sold in LHBSs (aka Denny's comments
>> above). That stuff is nothing more than table sugar in a solid rock form,
>> and as far as I can tell the "dark/amber" version is just colored. You're
>> talking about caramelizing sugar at home. IMO, what you're doing is
>> probably
>> a lot closer to what is really used in Belgian brewing (which is some sort
>> of caramelized sugar syrup). The rock candi sold at LHBSs is pretty much
>> a
>> gimmick.
>
> So what you're saying is both items have the same name and purpose, but one
> version of it isn't authentic? I can buy that.
Yeah, there was a quote made a long time ago (can't remember who, maybe the
guy who started importing the real belgian sugar to the US) that said if
you gave the "Belgian Rock Candi sugar" that is sold in most US homebrew
stores to a real Belgian brewer, they'd probably laugh at you.
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:26:42
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I think the real belgian stuff is a caramel syrup made from raw sugar, as
> opposed to the highly purified beet/cane sugar we normally get as "rock"
> candi sugar (which is nothing more than table sugar).
I believe that Brian Mercer, the importer of the syrup, has said that
it's a byproduct of making candi sugar....
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 08:09:22
From: Washu
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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Thanks for all the input. Decided I'm going to try making some candi
sugar and replacing some of the 2-row with dark DME for colour. Got my
new fermentor and valve for my HLT today too! Looks like a brewing
weekend is a-coming!
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:46:40
From: Washu
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> From what I've read on other sites the citric acid (our "sour salt") is not
> required but does change the fermentables in the resulting product. I used
> it in mine. Can't tell you that it made any difference or not. I found it
> at the local grocery store but it wasn't easy to find. I think it was in
> the canning section..... I think.
I checked a couple of the stores and was unable to find anything
labeled citric acid. I did find something called fruit-fresh in the
canning section. Here's the list of ingrediants.
Dextrose - no problem it's just sugar
Ascorbic Acid - a little vitamin C shouldn't hurt
Citric Acid - the philosophers stone so to speak
Silicon Dioxide - shouldn't be a problem
Contains no sulfites
Think this will work?
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58
From: Scott Lindner
Subject: Re: Little help with a belgian please
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> I checked a couple of the stores and was unable to find anything
> labeled citric acid. I did find something called fruit-fresh in the
> canning section. Here's the list of ingrediants.
Try looking for sour salt. It goes by that name too.
> Dextrose - no problem it's just sugar
> Ascorbic Acid - a little vitamin C shouldn't hurt
> Citric Acid - the philosophers stone so to speak
> Silicon Dioxide - shouldn't be a problem
> Contains no sulfites
>
> Think this will work?
What are these items for?
Scott
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