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Date: 18 Jul 2006 06:34:58
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Lightening beers for your friends
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Let's approach a topic some might consider sacrilege. I can appreciate
a full-bodied beer, but I can't really appreciate more than one of them
at once. A lot of people I know and serve beer can't even handle one.
It's just that it's slightly thicker, hoppier, and higher in alcohol
than what the group would generally consider as American swill.
Fine then, just find a whole new batch of friends, right?
I figured a lot of recipes could be adapted to retain flavor but improve
reception with friends. However, it seems quite tricky. For this case,
I'll use a Hefeweizen as an example. Here we have a wheat beer with
yeast contributing a particular aroma and flavor. IMO this beer is just
a touch sweeter than the casual drinker would want (for repetitive
drinking) and of course higher ABV since most everything will be.
My idea was to create a more fermentable wort, which means mashing with
lower temperatures. Fine enough, but that little bit of sweetness will
reduce the flavor. We could augment that by using a warmer fermentation
and pull out the esters. But not so fast! That will create fusel
alcohol; that is universally unacceptable. I suppose I could let that
age, and that's what I'd do if I can't find an alternative.
I'm using a Hefeweizen as an example here, but you can discuss whatever.
Something else that I find difficult would be a dry, malty beer. The
problem I see with casual drinkers is that those beers are generally
overwhelming, and I think the sugars work to bring out the maltiness.
Are there tricks to having a malty beer that is dry? What I imagine is
that without the sugar, you'd have to make what one would normally
consider an excessively malty beer. Given the lack of enhancement from
sugar, it might come out just right.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 04:14:02
From:
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Let's approach a topic some might consider sacrilege. I can appreciate
> a full-bodied beer, but I can't really appreciate more than one of them
> at once. A lot of people I know and serve beer can't even handle one.
> It's just that it's slightly thicker, hoppier, and higher in alcohol
> than what the group would generally consider as American swill.
>
> Fine then, just find a whole new batch of friends, right?
>
> I figured a lot of recipes could be adapted to retain flavor but improve
> reception with friends. However, it seems quite tricky. For this case,
> I'll use a Hefeweizen as an example. Here we have a wheat beer with
> yeast contributing a particular aroma and flavor. IMO this beer is just
> a touch sweeter than the casual drinker would want (for repetitive
> drinking) and of course higher ABV since most everything will be.
>
> My idea was to create a more fermentable wort, which means mashing with
> lower temperatures. Fine enough, but that little bit of sweetness will
> reduce the flavor. We could augment that by using a warmer fermentation
> and pull out the esters. But not so fast! That will create fusel
> alcohol; that is universally unacceptable. I suppose I could let that
> age, and that's what I'd do if I can't find an alternative.
>
> I'm using a Hefeweizen as an example here, but you can discuss whatever.
> Something else that I find difficult would be a dry, malty beer. The
> problem I see with casual drinkers is that those beers are generally
> overwhelming, and I think the sugars work to bring out the maltiness.
> Are there tricks to having a malty beer that is dry? What I imagine is
> that without the sugar, you'd have to make what one would normally
> consider an excessively malty beer. Given the lack of enhancement from
> sugar, it might come out just right.
You know, after reading your post a few more times I think I see
your delima more clear. That is quite a challange! To balance a beer,
as homebrewers do, in that manner you will get one or the other, either
sweet and heavy or strong and thin. It would seem to lean in the
direction of bumping up the amount of dextrose used in your recipe but
also amend it with some unfermentables for flavor. I think Dan
Listerman has done a lot of experimentation in that dept. He may have a
recipe that fits what your tring to do!
Steve
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 13:09:47
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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<smhoneydo@aol.com > wrote:
> You know, after reading your post a few more times I think I see
>your delima more clear. That is quite a challange! To balance a beer,
>as homebrewers do, in that manner you will get one or the other, either
>sweet and heavy or strong and thin. It would seem to lean in the
>direction of bumping up the amount of dextrose used in your recipe but
>also amend it with some unfermentables for flavor.
I guess I don't see the problem. British-style mild ale,
for example, can be fairly thin, yet is not strong, and has a
bit of malt flavor without necessarily being sweet. Ditto
things like traditional German pilsner, or even a light blond
ale. And it seems the "American-style wheat" is aimed squarely
at the OP's audience-- light, modestly flavorful, not very
bitter.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 03:57:05
From:
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Let's approach a topic some might consider sacrilege. I can appreciate
> a full-bodied beer, but I can't really appreciate more than one of them
> at once. A lot of people I know and serve beer can't even handle one.
> It's just that it's slightly thicker, hoppier, and higher in alcohol
> than what the group would generally consider as American swill.
>
> Fine then, just find a whole new batch of friends, right?
>
> I figured a lot of recipes could be adapted to retain flavor but improve
> reception with friends. However, it seems quite tricky. For this case,
> I'll use a Hefeweizen as an example. Here we have a wheat beer with
> yeast contributing a particular aroma and flavor. IMO this beer is just
> a touch sweeter than the casual drinker would want (for repetitive
> drinking) and of course higher ABV since most everything will be.
>
> My idea was to create a more fermentable wort, which means mashing with
> lower temperatures. Fine enough, but that little bit of sweetness will
> reduce the flavor. We could augment that by using a warmer fermentation
> and pull out the esters. But not so fast! That will create fusel
> alcohol; that is universally unacceptable. I suppose I could let that
> age, and that's what I'd do if I can't find an alternative.
>
> I'm using a Hefeweizen as an example here, but you can discuss whatever.
> Something else that I find difficult would be a dry, malty beer. The
> problem I see with casual drinkers is that those beers are generally
> overwhelming, and I think the sugars work to bring out the maltiness.
> Are there tricks to having a malty beer that is dry? What I imagine is
> that without the sugar, you'd have to make what one would normally
> consider an excessively malty beer. Given the lack of enhancement from
> sugar, it might come out just right.
Your post seems to jump around a bit but I think I catch your
drift. Are you suggesting a somewhat light bodied beer, similar to
those most nonbrewers drink, but with a good bit more strength? If
we're one the same track here I have tried the same thing. On halloween
last I threw a little spook party and served my begian tripel. I think
they all enjoyed it, it was strong, around 8%ABV it was light but had
those yeast notes common among most belgians. I believe from your
desciption this style fits the bill. Of course after two or three you
will get skewed reviews, but thats all part of the fun ain't it?
Steve
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 05:29:01
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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smhoneydo@aol.com wrote:
> Your post seems to jump around a bit but I think I catch your
> drift. Are you suggesting a somewhat light bodied beer, similar to
> those most nonbrewers drink, but with a good bit more strength? If
> we're one the same track here I have tried the same thing. On halloween
> last I threw a little spook party and served my begian tripel. I think
> they all enjoyed it, it was strong, around 8%ABV it was light but had
> those yeast notes common among most belgians. I believe from your
> desciption this style fits the bill. Of course after two or three you
> will get skewed reviews, but thats all part of the fun ain't it?
No, I want less ABV as well. What I want is to retain a strong flavor
without the beer being as full. This way they can have more than one.
My thoughts are that with the reduced sugars, I'd have to make the
flavors much stronger to compensate.
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 16:53:02
From: Jerry Z
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Let's approach a topic some might consider sacrilege. I can appreciate
> a full-bodied beer, but I can't really appreciate more than one of them
> at once.
>>SNIP<<
I'm not sure if I'm getting your question completely, but if you're
looking to thin out some heavier styles, you could always try adding
more water. Brew as normal, then at bottling time, add a few quarts of
water above and beyond what you normally use to dissolve your priming
sugar to thin things out.
You've already alluded to altering your mash temperatures to produce
more fermentables. That will reduce the mouthfeel by breaking down the
dextrins into sugars that yeast can metabolize.
You can also pick a yeast known for its attenuation characteristics --
the better the attenuation, the less residual sweetness left behind in
the final product.
Finally, you can brew with adjuncts. I've never had any urge or reason
otherwise to brew with rice or corn, but I'm sure if you dig around,
you'll find recipes that include them.
Jerry
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Date: 18 Jul 2006 23:56:12
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:mi%ug.64025$e77.60358@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Let's approach a topic some might consider sacrilege. I can appreciate a
> full-bodied beer, but I can't really appreciate more than one of them at
> once. A lot of people I know and serve beer can't even handle one. It's
> just that it's slightly thicker, hoppier, and higher in alcohol than what
> the group would generally consider as American swill.
>
> Fine then, just find a whole new batch of friends, right?
>
> I figured a lot of recipes could be adapted to retain flavor but improve
> reception with friends. However, it seems quite tricky. For this case,
> I'll use a Hefeweizen as an example. Here we have a wheat beer with yeast
> contributing a particular aroma and flavor. IMO this beer is just a touch
> sweeter than the casual drinker would want (for repetitive drinking) and
> of course higher ABV since most everything will be.
>
> My idea was to create a more fermentable wort, which means mashing with
> lower temperatures. Fine enough, but that little bit of sweetness will
> reduce the flavor. We could augment that by using a warmer fermentation
> and pull out the esters. But not so fast! That will create fusel
> alcohol; that is universally unacceptable. I suppose I could let that
> age, and that's what I'd do if I can't find an alternative.
>
> I'm using a Hefeweizen as an example here, but you can discuss whatever.
> Something else that I find difficult would be a dry, malty beer. The
> problem I see with casual drinkers is that those beers are generally
> overwhelming, and I think the sugars work to bring out the maltiness. Are
> there tricks to having a malty beer that is dry? What I imagine is that
> without the sugar, you'd have to make what one would normally consider an
> excessively malty beer. Given the lack of enhancement from sugar, it
> might come out just right.
>
There are quite a few options open to you. Use a pils malt and an adjunct
will give light and dry - you can use corn and/or rice or plain white sugar
does the same thing.
Your next step is adding some appropiate flavor. You can add something like
melanoidin, you don't need much to make a difference. Bitter the beer
lightly with a neutral hop but finish with 1/2 oz of hallertau for a light
refreshing hop flavor.
I'm not sure people who normally drink mainstream beer would like hefeweizen
very much with clovey-bananery aromas and flavors - I think it is an aquired
taste.
Mash at low temps with a high water/grain ratio for a longish mash time.
Keep your boil time down to an hour and use an attenuative lager yeast
fermented as cold as it will stand. I would avoid irish moss as it may strip
out what head retaining proteins there are left. Haze can be removed later
with gelatine.
Just my thoughts anyway.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 05:52:44
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> There are quite a few options open to you. Use a pils malt and an adjunct
> will give light and dry - you can use corn and/or rice or plain white sugar
> does the same thing.
I do want dry but not necessarily with a flavorless alcohol boost. I'm
aiming for, say, 3-4% abv. I'll keep pils malt in mind.
> Your next step is adding some appropiate flavor. You can add something like
> melanoidin, you don't need much to make a difference. Bitter the beer
> lightly with a neutral hop but finish with 1/2 oz of hallertau for a light
> refreshing hop flavor.
I haven't looked too much into melanoidin, but Saaz is my favorite hop
is the AA contribution is low.
> I'm not sure people who normally drink mainstream beer would like hefeweizen
> very much with clovey-bananery aromas and flavors - I think it is an aquired
> taste.
I made a batch awhile ago and people liked it. It was too strong for
them to have a second in the same session, though.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 06:34:27
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:MMjvg.163$YO6.43@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Steve/Aus wrote:
>
>> There are quite a few options open to you. Use a pils malt and an adjunct
>> will give light and dry - you can use corn and/or rice or plain white
>> sugar does the same thing.
>
> I do want dry but not necessarily with a flavorless alcohol boost. I'm
> aiming for, say, 3-4% abv. I'll keep pils malt in mind.
>
To be honest, IMO, unless you particularly want 'dry' as a dominating
characteristic of the beer you have in mind, you can make a stunning easy
drinking beer with straight pils malt and nothing else. I've made a few and
they work very well. A two step mash for beta and alpha works well but a
single step is just fine. Lightly bitter with a neutral medium alpha hop,
finish off with a Saaz plug or two. Use a nice neutral lager yeast to
ferment - plenty of choice here. Use gelatine or some other suitable floc
when you secondary for a brighter beer and keg as usual.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 18:47:12
From: Scott Alfter
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Hash: SHA1
In article <Tnkvg.7473$tE5.4735@news-server.bigpond.net.au >,
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>To be honest, IMO, unless you particularly want 'dry' as a dominating
>characteristic of the beer you have in mind, you can make a stunning easy
>drinking beer with straight pils malt and nothing else. I've made a few and
>they work very well. A two step mash for beta and alpha works well but a
>single step is just fine. Lightly bitter with a neutral medium alpha hop,
>finish off with a Saaz plug or two. Use a nice neutral lager yeast to
>ferment - plenty of choice here.
One of this year's Big Brew recipes was a Kölsch that used just pilsner
malt, with no specialty grains. It's hopped with Hallertauer and Saaz. The
use of a yeast more commonly associated with California common beer than
with Kölsch is a little bit unusual, but I think it turned out well. It's
definitely the palest beer I've ever made. I think your average mega-swill
drinker would like it.
http://www.beertown.org/events/bigbrew/recipes.html
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 08:55:01
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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Adam Preble wrote:
> My idea was to create a more fermentable wort, which means mashing with
> lower temperatures. Fine enough, but that little bit of sweetness will
> reduce the flavor. We could augment that by using a warmer fermentation
> and pull out the esters. But not so fast! That will create fusel
> alcohol; that is universally unacceptable. I suppose I could let that
> age, and that's what I'd do if I can't find an alternative.
If you want to dry the beer out while retaining some of the flavors of
the more complex sugars, the answer is to reduce base malt and replace
it with sugar, honey, corn, or rice. Mashing lower will break down the
complex sugars which you are trying to preserve -- without these, the
beer will taste watery. I'd say, mash medium to high and use a quantity
of 100% fermentables.
> I'm using a Hefeweizen as an example here, but you can discuss whatever.
> Something else that I find difficult would be a dry, malty beer. The
> problem I see with casual drinkers is that those beers are generally
> overwhelming, and I think the sugars work to bring out the maltiness.
> Are there tricks to having a malty beer that is dry? What I imagine is
> that without the sugar, you'd have to make what one would normally
> consider an excessively malty beer. Given the lack of enhancement from
> sugar, it might come out just right.
You're saying that you want maltiness, but not necessarily sweetness?
I'd say, formulate your recipe to a reasonable OG using only base malt
and a small quantity of malt with intense malt flavor, such as Belgian
aromatic malt. Then, replace some of your base malt with sugar or other
100% fermentable of your choice. Above all don't add any crystal or
other malts which are traditionally used to impart sweetness. If you
find that the beer's color is insipid, adjust it darker using a small
quantity of a neutral black malt like Carafa.
I've found that beers with 100% fermentable components tend to have a
sharp alcohol taste early in the aging process. That should go away
with a month or so of aging.
Scott
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 04:54:37
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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I would strongly advise you don't ferment it warmer than you usually
do. You will get more esters, but not necessarily desirable ones. At
the high end the banana esters really come out and sometimes even an
aroma of juicy-fruit gum which you do not want in a hefe.
I would say if you want a hefe with some extra flavour, try a dunkel
(dark) weizen or a weizenbock. Usually all this means is adding some
extra grains such as crystal, munich or chocolate malt. I think
dextrins are more at home in these styles, too.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 15:42:45
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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GeoffT wrote:
> I would strongly advise you don't ferment it warmer than you usually
> do. You will get more esters, but not necessarily desirable ones. At
> the high end the banana esters really come out and sometimes even an
> aroma of juicy-fruit gum which you do not want in a hefe.
>
Point taken, but I do like Juicy Fruit. ;)
> I would say if you want a hefe with some extra flavour, try a dunkel
> (dark) weizen or a weizenbock. Usually all this means is adding some
> extra grains such as crystal, munich or chocolate malt. I think
> dextrins are more at home in these styles, too.
I'm trying to avoid the dextrins here. Part of the problem is the extra
thickness of a lot of homebrew--recipes seem to gear themselves that
way. I do like Dunkelweizen too, but I think that runs into a third
problem: the "brown/black equals dinner" falsehood. I could make a
tripel to dispel that, but I'm not trying to preach to the drinkers.
Well, it could be possible to get that color with too much dextrins and
caramel, I suppose. I could use a very heavily-kilned crystal malt and
use less of it instead of more less-kilned roasted malts. If that will
bring out the malt character while retaining dryness, I'm for it.
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 03:01:11
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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> I made a batch awhile ago and people liked it. It was too strong for
> them to have a second in the same session, though.
I agree with this. When I make hefeweizen it's always a crowd pleaser
but it's always commented how strong (alcohol-wise) it is. It's only 5%
or so!
You could try making a lower-alcohol hefe, I suppose. I'm not sure if
this would work!
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Date: 19 Jul 2006 10:29:29
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Lightening beers for your friends
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GeoffT wrote:
> I agree with this. When I make hefeweizen it's always a crowd pleaser
> but it's always commented how strong (alcohol-wise) it is. It's only 5%
> or so!
>
> You could try making a lower-alcohol hefe, I suppose. I'm not sure if
> this would work!
Well I could retain a lot of flavor is I had more complex sugars, but
then that would be thicker. My thought was to get more esters in the
fermentation instead, but that could produce fusel alcohols.
BYO has something about Belgian brewing and ester formation available
online right now:
http://www.byo.com/departments/1496.html
"Temperature and inoculation techniques have a big impact on your
resulting artwork, mostly with regard to ester formation. Most of the
literature suggests that any parameter that forces faster and more
quantitative growth of yeast will also increase ester production. Higher
fermentation temps and low pitching rates would fit into this scheme.
But, this seems a bit too simplistic. Often, these same parameters have
a direct effect on fusel alcohol formation, which should be kept to a
minimum."
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html
Goes all over the place but suggests some factors. In the update, the
main statement is that aeration 24 hours after pitching will increase
ester production. I don't see that necessarily helping reduce fusels
though.
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