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Main
Date: 29 Aug 2006 19:33:21
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Latest starter cell count
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For those of you that are interested:
I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
--
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 03:00:34
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> For those of you that are interested:
>
> I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
> pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
>
> For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
> cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
> for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
>
> Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
> Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
Why does cell count increase by stirring?
Dick
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 16:08:27
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:00:34 -0000, <rdadams@smart.net > wrote:
> Why does cell count increase by stirring?
It keeps the yeast in suspension (maintins their contact with the food
source) as well as continuously aerating them (oxygen is a major
requirement for healthy reproduction).
Depending on where you read it, a stir plate is supposed to increase the
cell count anywhere from 2X up to 6X. Peronslly, I think it's somehwere
in between, probably closer to the lower end of that range.
John.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 08:16:01
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Dick Adams wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com> wrote:
>
>
>>For those of you that are interested:
>>
>>I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
>>pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
>>
>>For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
>>cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
>>for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
>>
>>Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
>>Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
>
>
> Why does cell count increase by stirring?
>
> Dick
>
Keeps the yeast in suspension and in contact with food, keeps the
exchange of gasses going in the wort. There may be other reasons, but
these are the only ones I'm familiar with. I've heard claims (mostly
from vendors selling stir plates) of a 5x-7x increase in yeast mass, but
I've only been able to verify a doubling.
--
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:01:25
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Keeps the yeast in suspension and in contact with food, keeps the
> exchange of gasses going in the wort. There may be other reasons, but
> these are the only ones I'm familiar with. I've heard claims (mostly
> from vendors selling stir plates) of a 5x-7x increase in yeast mass, but
> I've only been able to verify a doubling.
I would think that it also adds more O2 to the wort, which is used for
cell wall production for new cells.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 11:18:38
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Denny Conn wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>
>>Keeps the yeast in suspension and in contact with food, keeps the
>>exchange of gasses going in the wort. There may be other reasons, but
>>these are the only ones I'm familiar with. I've heard claims (mostly
>>from vendors selling stir plates) of a 5x-7x increase in yeast mass, but
>>I've only been able to verify a doubling.
>
>
> I would think that it also adds more O2 to the wort, which is used for
> cell wall production for new cells.
>
Right -- thus the "exchange of gasses" bit. CO2 out, O2 in.
Meanwhile, please join me in mourning for my resurrected Zurich Lager
yeast starter, which I threw out prior to pitching because the starter
tasted too much like bandaids -- gave me a bad feeling.
--
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 10:41:28
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Meanwhile, please join me in mourning for my resurrected Zurich Lager
> yeast starter, which I threw out prior to pitching because the starter
> tasted too much like bandaids -- gave me a bad feeling.
Your ex-starter has my deepest condolences....:)
Meanwhile, my 3 1/2 year old WY1388 has been stepped up to 3 qt. and is
going gangbusters.....
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 12:59:00
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Denny Conn wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>
>>Meanwhile, please join me in mourning for my resurrected Zurich Lager
>>yeast starter, which I threw out prior to pitching because the starter
>>tasted too much like bandaids -- gave me a bad feeling.
>
>
> Your ex-starter has my deepest condolences....:)
>
> Meanwhile, my 3 1/2 year old WY1388 has been stepped up to 3 qt. and is
> going gangbusters.....
>
Not to be dissuaded, I'm going to try to revive a smack pack of WY2278
manufactured in ober of 2005 that I just happened to find burried
beneath a bunch of stuff in my serving CF.
--
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Buy several copies today!
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 11:00:07
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Not to be dissuaded, I'm going to try to revive a smack pack of WY2278
> manufactured in ober of 2005 that I just happened to find burried
> beneath a bunch of stuff in my serving CF.
Kinda feels Dr. Frankenstein-ish, huh???
-------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 13:05:18
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Denny Conn wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>
>>Not to be dissuaded, I'm going to try to revive a smack pack of WY2278
>>manufactured in ober of 2005 that I just happened to find burried
>>beneath a bunch of stuff in my serving CF.
>
>
> Kinda feels Dr. Frankenstein-ish, huh???
>
Kinda feels like I need to clean out my serving fridge more often... I
ran across all KINDS of crap in there I had forgotten about.
I actually had a great experiment going to test long term viability of
yeast on slants filled with sterile mineral oil. I had samples from 1-4
years old. Katrina put an end to that -- but I just found one yesterday
I missed and forgot to throw out...
--
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Buy several copies today!
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 22:19:06
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Dick Adams wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com> wrote:
>
>> For those of you that are interested:
>>
>> I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
>> pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
>>
>> For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
>> cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
>> for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
>>
>> Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
>> Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
>
> Why does cell count increase by stirring?
Agitation brings them fresh food and carries away their wastes faster.
--
Daniel O. Miller
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17
Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 03:56:28
From:
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> For those of you that are interested:
>
> I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
> pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
>
> For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
> cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
> for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
>
> Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
> Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
What was your step up procedure on this starter? That was a great cell
count. Did you start out with a tube or smack pack or was this stepped
up from a slant? Thanks, Jim
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 08:23:39
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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yajsmith@triad.rr.com wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>>For those of you that are interested:
>>
>>I haven't done a cell count on a starter in a while, so I thought I'd
>>pull out the microscope and hemacytometer and give it a whirl again.
>>
>>For a 3.25 liter starter from 1.040 wort built on a stir plate I got a
>>cell count of 2.55e8 to 2.66e8 (255 million to 266 million) cells/ml,
>>for a total starter volume of around 860 billion cells.
>>
>>Obviously, your mileage may vary as these were built up on a stir plate.
>>Last time I compared, non-stir plate volume was roughly half.
>>--
>>(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>>
>>Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
>>http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>>
>>Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
>>Buy several copies today!
>
>
> What was your step up procedure on this starter? That was a great cell
> count. Did you start out with a tube or smack pack or was this stepped
> up from a slant? Thanks, Jim
>
This was a tube of WLP 802 pitched directly into 3250 ml of 1040 wort.
It had an extremely long lag time (especially considering the stir
plate), so I assume initial viability must have been quite low. It took
36 hours to take off. Often when a tube is pitched this way it's done in
12-24 hours.
I used to do a lot of yeast ranching, but no longer -- it's just too
much of a hassle for me. I might get back into it, as there are a couple
of WL "platinum" strains I'd like to archive.
--
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Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
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Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 13:28:17
From: wpattison
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
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Thanks for all of the replies.
I just made my first starter this week with the White Labs English Ale
yeast. Started with 2 cups of water and 2 tbls of DME in a 22oz
sanitized beer bottle. Last night I ramped that up in 4c water + 4
tbls DME into a sanitized cider jar I had laying around. So far so
good.
I really didn't need to do the starter. I'm making a chocolate stout
this weekend (2nd batch and it's a partial mash!) and figured I would
try my hand at upping the yeast count. It seemed pretty straight
forward so I thought about squeezing a couple of batches out with just
one yeast purchase. Now I know I can. :)
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> wpattison wrote:
> > Are you guys keeping these yeast collections in the fridge or freezer?
>
> Fridge -- as a rule you don't want to freeze yeast. If you have a true
> deep freeze (or even better access to liquid nitrogen), there are
> long-term storage methods you can use involving freezing, but these are
> a pain.
>
> >
> > I'm keen on doing a little "ranching" and was wondering if I can just
> > mess around with some vials and throw them in a fridge for a couple of
> > months until I can make the wort.
>
> Sure. Some strains (lager strains in particular) are pickier than others
> about long-term storage, but at a couple of months you can get away with
> just storing slurry (refrigerated). Just be sure you're comfortable
> doing starters. I've given up ranching for the most part, though. It's
> kind of a PITA in the long run. I'd rather just pay somebody else to
> maintain the culture.
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 12:50:31
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
wpattison wrote:
>
> Are you guys keeping these yeast collections in the fridge or freezer?
>
> I'm keen on doing a little "ranching" and was wondering if I can just
> mess around with some vials and throw them in a fridge for a couple of
> months until I can make the wort.
Fridge for me. Although I'm not using a slant for the yeast in this
discussion, slants will keep in the firdge easily for 6 months or so, as
will slurry.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 12:35:58
From: wpattison
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
Are you guys keeping these yeast collections in the fridge or freezer?
I'm keen on doing a little "ranching" and was wondering if I can just
mess around with some vials and throw them in a fridge for a couple of
months until I can make the wort.
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> Denny Conn wrote:
> > The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Not to be dissuaded, I'm going to try to revive a smack pack of WY2278
> >>manufactured in ober of 2005 that I just happened to find burried
> >>beneath a bunch of stuff in my serving CF.
> >
> >
> > Kinda feels Dr. Frankenstein-ish, huh???
> >
>
> Kinda feels like I need to clean out my serving fridge more often... I
> ran across all KINDS of crap in there I had forgotten about.
>
> I actually had a great experiment going to test long term viability of
> yeast on slants filled with sterile mineral oil. I had samples from 1-4
> years old. Katrina put an end to that -- but I just found one yesterday
> I missed and forgot to throw out...
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 15:05:49
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
wpattison wrote:
> Are you guys keeping these yeast collections in the fridge or freezer?
Fridge -- as a rule you don't want to freeze yeast. If you have a true
deep freeze (or even better access to liquid nitrogen), there are
long-term storage methods you can use involving freezing, but these are
a pain.
>
> I'm keen on doing a little "ranching" and was wondering if I can just
> mess around with some vials and throw them in a fridge for a couple of
> months until I can make the wort.
Sure. Some strains (lager strains in particular) are pickier than others
about long-term storage, but at a couple of months you can get away with
just storing slurry (refrigerated). Just be sure you're comfortable
doing starters. I've given up ranching for the most part, though. It's
kind of a PITA in the long run. I'd rather just pay somebody else to
maintain the culture.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 20:00:24
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
On 30 Aug 2006 12:35:58 -0700, <warrenpattison@gmail.com > wrote:
> Are you guys keeping these yeast collections in the fridge or freezer?
>
> I'm keen on doing a little "ranching" and was wondering if I can just
> mess around with some vials and throw them in a fridge for a couple of
> months until I can make the wort.
For a couple months the fridge should be fine. Freezing is a little more
complicated than just tossing them in the freezer though. You have to
take some extra precautions to make sure that freezing doens't kill the
yeast.
John.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 05:59:19
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
Regarding stir plates. I work in a chem lab and we have a combination
hot plate/stir plate in which the heating element went to crap. It is
no longer used so I'm going to see if the company will let me buy/have
it. My question is this: how fast would I set the thing when culturing
yeast? It just has a dial numbered 1 through 10.
Scotty B
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 09:49:31
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
Scotty B wrote:
> Regarding stir plates. I work in a chem lab and we have a combination
> hot plate/stir plate in which the heating element went to crap. It is
> no longer used so I'm going to see if the company will let me buy/have
> it. My question is this: how fast would I set the thing when culturing
> yeast? It just has a dial numbered 1 through 10.
>
> Scotty B
>
I just run it as fas as possible. Note that in a viscous solution, the
bar may spin-off to the side and stop spinning if you crank up the speed
too high.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
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Buy several copies today!
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 14:10:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
On 31 Aug 2006 05:59:19 -0700, <michaellasalle@gmail.com > wrote:
> Regarding stir plates. I work in a chem lab and we have a combination
> hot plate/stir plate in which the heating element went to crap. It is
> no longer used so I'm going to see if the company will let me buy/have
> it. My question is this: how fast would I set the thing when culturing
> yeast? It just has a dial numbered 1 through 10.
IMO, you want it fast enough so that it maintains a vortex, but you don't
want it to be too violent. The speed range of the stirplate is probably
going to be dependent on your model, so I don't know what number to tell
you to set it to. I don't turn mine up past halfway though.
John.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 16:49:28
From: Warren Place
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Scotty B wrote:
> Regarding stir plates. I work in a chem lab and we have a combination
> hot plate/stir plate in which the heating element went to crap. It is
> no longer used so I'm going to see if the company will let me buy/have
> it. My question is this: how fast would I set the thing when culturing
> yeast? It just has a dial numbered 1 through 10.
>
> Scotty B
>
>
Just a note of warning:
The stir speed will depend on what size of stir bar magnet to have in
the flask. I turned mine up to get a deep vortex but had to abort that
plan when the stir plate started heating up. Stir the flask with water in
it overnight and measure the temp in the morning. Depending on the
size of the stir plate, some get quite warm. My smaller stir plate
has to run at #10 to make a vortex and the heat generated overnight
made the water 110F, too hot for yeast! My larger plate can run
several days without adding any significant heat to the water
Warren Place
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 04:48:25
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Latest starter cell count
|
Thanks all.
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