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Date: 10 Jul 2006 10:44:30
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Late Extract Additions
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I just thought of another question about this process. Say I'm doing hop
additions at 30 minutes and when I hit 15 minutes and turn off the heat to
add the other half of my extracts, since the wort is still close to boiling
won't the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to stir in the extract and bring it
to a boil make it more like a 45 minute hop addition, thus taking away some
essential oils from the 30 minute addition and actually adding more
bittering?
Gerard
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 10:10:40
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> I just thought of another question about this process. Say I'm doing hop
> additions at 30 minutes and when I hit 15 minutes and turn off the heat to
> add the other half of my extracts, since the wort is still close to
> boiling won't the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to stir in the extract and
> bring it to a boil make it more like a 45 minute hop addition, thus taking
> away some essential oils from the 30 minute addition and actually adding
> more bittering?
That's an interesting question! But I think the answer has to be *NO*.
The alpha-acids from hops are only isomerized during an active boil. If the
wort is not actually boiling, there is no alpha-acid extraction. There
should be no additional bittering from this process.
During this period of steeping, however, there *WILL* be additional
extraction of hop oils and other compounds that promote hop flavor and
aroma. (Since you have already boiled these hops for 15 minutes, if I read
your question correctly, a lot of these hop compounds have already been
boiled away.) There are certain chemical reactions that occur between
these compounds and other compounds in the wort. The result of these
reactions reduces the amount of hop flavors and aromas that are boiled
away; this is essentially the mechanism involved in "first wort hopping".
The bottom line is I can think of no reason why you should not do this.
OTOH, I cannot think of any reason why you should, either. You would
probably get better results from a more straight-forward first wort hopping
procedure than a "mid-boil steeping". But honestly, this is nothing but a
guess on my part.
A curiosity question: Why are you adding half of your malt extract later in
the boil, rather than boiling it all from the beginning?
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 15:29:15
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:10:40 -0500, <nospam@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> Gerard Eberlein wrote:
>
>> I just thought of another question about this process. Say I'm doing hop
>> additions at 30 minutes and when I hit 15 minutes and turn off the heat to
>> add the other half of my extracts, since the wort is still close to
>> boiling won't the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to stir in the extract and
>> bring it to a boil make it more like a 45 minute hop addition, thus taking
>> away some essential oils from the 30 minute addition and actually adding
>> more bittering?
>
> That's an interesting question! But I think the answer has to be *NO*.
>
> The alpha-acids from hops are only isomerized during an active boil. If the
> wort is not actually boiling, there is no alpha-acid extraction. There
> should be no additional bittering from this process.
I don't know if you get zero utilization without an active boil, but I agree
it's probably very low.
John.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 11:25:50
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I don't know if you get zero utilization without an active boil, but I
> agree it's probably very low.
Agreed! Zero is, after all, a *VERY* small number.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 11:18:31
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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"Larry Bristol" <nospam@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote in message
news:12b4rfgphov9gc7@corp.supernews.com...
>
> A curiosity question: Why are you adding half of your malt extract later
in
> the boil, rather than boiling it all from the beginning?
I've read that late extract additions will result in a lighter colored beer
and help with reducing some of the "extract" taste. I do all extract and
specialty grain ATM.
Gerard
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 11:24:18
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> I've read that late extract additions will result in a lighter colored
> beer and help with reducing some of the "extract" taste. I do all extract
> and specialty grain ATM.
Fair enough...
I guess the lighter color results from less caramelization due to a shorter
boil time. I think this is truly a problem only when doing a reduced
volume boil. The much higher concentration of the wort in such a case
would tend to caramelize more.
My solution would be to go to a full volume boil. IMHO, this is *NOT*
something that only all-grain brewers should do. I know it sounds silly,
but a full volume boil is beneficial even when brewing from extract. I can
personally vouch for it; I noted a distinct improvement in the quality of
my own beers when I made this move. Perhaps reduced volume boils is where
that supposed "extract taste" comes from.
[Hmmm... I just had a brain twitch (a dangerous thing considering all of
the beer I have consumed in my life). Perhaps this is why I have long
regarded that "extract taste" thing as a myth!]
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 15:32:42
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:18:31 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
>
> "Larry Bristol" <nospam@remove.doubleluck.com> wrote in message
> news:12b4rfgphov9gc7@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> A curiosity question: Why are you adding half of your malt extract later
> in
>> the boil, rather than boiling it all from the beginning?
> I've read that late extract additions will result in a lighter colored beer
> and help with reducing some of the "extract" taste. I do all extract and
> specialty grain ATM.
Define what you mean by "extract" taste. Are you talking about caramelizing
the sugars, or do you mean what is traditionally called the "extract twang".
If the later, that usually refers to cidery off flavors caused by old/stale
LME. I don't think it's a boil issue.
Adding extract later in the boil should help somewhat with darkening of the
wort, but IMO, so would doing a full boil. I think switching to full
boils would be a better solution than late extract additions.
John.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 12:20:29
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrneb4ssq.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:18:31 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Larry Bristol" <nospam@remove.doubleluck.com> wrote in message
> > news:12b4rfgphov9gc7@corp.supernews.com...
> >>
> >> A curiosity question: Why are you adding half of your malt extract
later
> > in
> >> the boil, rather than boiling it all from the beginning?
> > I've read that late extract additions will result in a lighter colored
beer
> > and help with reducing some of the "extract" taste. I do all extract and
> > specialty grain ATM.
>
> Define what you mean by "extract" taste. Are you talking about
caramelizing
> the sugars, or do you mean what is traditionally called the "extract
twang".
> If the later, that usually refers to cidery off flavors caused by
old/stale
> LME. I don't think it's a boil issue.
>
> Adding extract later in the boil should help somewhat with darkening of
the
> wort, but IMO, so would doing a full boil. I think switching to full
> boils would be a better solution than late extract additions.
>
>
> John.
I already do full boils so I guess I should have to worry about color then.
I've mad a couple of IPA's and had comments on both at my brew club that
they seemed dark, that is one reason I tried late additions. As far as the
flavour I was referring to the carmely flavour.
Gerard
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 11:34:50
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> I already do full boils so I guess I should have to worry about color
> then. I've mad a couple of IPA's and had comments on both at my brew club
> that they seemed dark, that is one reason I tried late additions. As far
> as the flavour I was referring to the carmely flavour.
Curiosity aroused again... Have you used a recipe calculator to compute
your expected color? If so, does it fall within the IPA guidelines? Maybe
that caramel flavor is coming from something else?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 18:04:54
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:20:29 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
> I already do full boils so I guess I should have to worry about color then.
> I've mad a couple of IPA's and had comments on both at my brew club that
> they seemed dark, that is one reason I tried late additions. As far as the
> flavour I was referring to the carmely flavour.
If you're already doing full boils, then you should be on even footing
with all grain brewing regarding the amount of darkening that occurs
in your kettle. There may still be *some* going on, but it's possible
to make very light beers using a full boil. I think what you may be
running into at this point is that the extracts themselves tend to
come out of the can a little darker than the equivalent all grain
ingredients. I've also heard that LME can darken with age.
IMO, try and find the lightest/freshest extract you can for beers where
color is important. I use "Ultra Light" (or is it "Extra Light"?) Muntons
for most of my beers. Some brands are probably better for this
than others. If you're doing full boils already and being careful not
to scorch the extract when you add it (stir well, turn off heat when adding,
etc), then IMO, late extract additions probably won't make much difference.
It's results that matter though. If you find that it does make a difference,
then go for it. IMO, the only time when late extract additions are a bad
idea is when you try and boil the hops by themselves and add *all* of the
malt late in the boil.
John.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 14:56:27
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Late Extract Additions
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:44:30 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
> I just thought of another question about this process. Say I'm doing hop
> additions at 30 minutes and when I hit 15 minutes and turn off the heat to
> add the other half of my extracts, since the wort is still close to boiling
> won't the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to stir in the extract and bring it
> to a boil make it more like a 45 minute hop addition, thus taking away some
> essential oils from the 30 minute addition and actually adding more
> bittering?
Probably. I'm not sure how much extra bitterness you'll get though, since
the utilization depends a lot on the mechanical action of a rolling boil.
John.
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