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Main
Date: 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53
From: Don Levey
Subject: Is it dead?
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Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my LHBS).
This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator" pack.
This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough yeast
cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked the
pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I see
perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white patches
on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd expect to see
if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four hours of work, or
is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 16:38:57
From:
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I see
> perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white patches
> on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd expect to see
> if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four hours of work, or
> is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
That is the first signs of activity. Its on its way.
Jerry
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 21:31:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us > wrote:
> Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my LHBS).
> This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator" pack.
> This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough yeast
> cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked the
> pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
> fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the Activator)
were pitchable without a starter back when they were the largest size. IMO,
don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype designed to make their
product sound as easy to use as possible. With most of the liquid yeast
companies, their recommendations are generally centered around what is easier
rather than what makes the best beer.
Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2 of
the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea to make
a starter.
> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I see
> perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white patches
> on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd expect to see
> if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four hours of work, or
> is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter. Contrary
to what the company claims, you're really still underpitching.
I would guess that the white patches you're seeing are the beginning of
activity though. They're probably little CO2 bubbles (maybe with some yeast
stuck to them) collecting on the surface. It shouldn't be too much longer
until you start seeing obvious signs of fermentation (maybe even by the time
you read this).
John.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 20:40:53
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrneb5hta.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the
Activator)
> were pitchable without a starter back when they were the largest size.
IMO,
> don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype designed to make their
> product sound as easy to use as possible. With most of the liquid yeast
> companies, their recommendations are generally centered around what is
easier
> rather than what makes the best beer.
>
> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2 of
> the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea to
make
> a starter.
>
> 26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter.
Contrary
> to what the company claims, you're really still underpitching.
> John.
I've used wyeast smack packs twice without making a starter and they seem to
work better than the dry yeast I have used. First one started ferming in 8
hours, the second one I just did was an arrogant bastard clone with an OG of
1.077. After 6 days it's SG 1.018. It did take 16 hours to really perk but
once it did it was very steady. That's not too bad for a high gravity beer
and a smack pack. Maybe I just got lucky.
Gerard
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 22:18:37
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrneb5hta.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>
>>Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the
>
> Activator)
>
>>were pitchable without a starter back when they were the largest size.
>
> IMO,
>
>>don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype designed to make their
>>product sound as easy to use as possible. With most of the liquid yeast
>>companies, their recommendations are generally centered around what is
>
> easier
>
>>rather than what makes the best beer.
>>
>>Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
>>recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2 of
>>the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea to
>
> make
>
>>a starter.
>>
>>26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter.
>
> Contrary
>
>>to what the company claims, you're really still underpitching.
>>John.
>
>
>
> I've used wyeast smack packs twice without making a starter and they seem to
> work better than the dry yeast I have used. First one started ferming in 8
> hours, the second one I just did was an arrogant bastard clone with an OG of
> 1.077. After 6 days it's SG 1.018. It did take 16 hours to really perk but
> once it did it was very steady. That's not too bad for a high gravity beer
> and a smack pack. Maybe I just got lucky.
My buddy used the smack pack (100 million cell) for a batch and it kicked in
within 5 hours.. done in less than 3 days. Very fast.
--
Dan
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 01:15:12
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 20:40:53 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
> I've used wyeast smack packs twice without making a starter and they seem to
> work better than the dry yeast I have used. First one started ferming in 8
> hours, the second one I just did was an arrogant bastard clone with an OG of
> 1.077. After 6 days it's SG 1.018. It did take 16 hours to really perk but
> once it did it was very steady. That's not too bad for a high gravity beer
> and a smack pack. Maybe I just got lucky.
Smack packs are a fraction of the amount of yeast that packets of dry yeast
contain (either 1/4 or 1/2, depending on which smack pack you used). IMO,
if you are getting shorter lag times using smack packs without a starter,
then there's something suspect about your dry yeast. ;)
Do you know what brand of dry yeast you were using, or was it just the
generic stuff of unknown age that comes in the lid of canned extract?
John.
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 10:03:46
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrneb5v10.ri4.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 20:40:53 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net> wrote:
> > I've used wyeast smack packs twice without making a starter and they
seem to
> > work better than the dry yeast I have used. First one started ferming in
8
> > hours, the second one I just did was an arrogant bastard clone with an
OG of
> > 1.077. After 6 days it's SG 1.018. It did take 16 hours to really perk
but
> > once it did it was very steady. That's not too bad for a high gravity
beer
> > and a smack pack. Maybe I just got lucky.
>
> Smack packs are a fraction of the amount of yeast that packets of dry
yeast
> contain (either 1/4 or 1/2, depending on which smack pack you used). IMO,
> if you are getting shorter lag times using smack packs without a starter,
> then there's something suspect about your dry yeast. ;)
>
> Do you know what brand of dry yeast you were using, or was it just the
> generic stuff of unknown age that comes in the lid of canned extract?
>
>
> John.
Those packs were danstar nottingham dry yeast that came in a beer kit. both
of those had no date on the pack , the first beer I used what came with the
kit, the second one I bought an extra pack of the same danstar which did
have a date on it and was well before the expire date. It had at least 5
months till it was expired. So in that case I know it was fresh, I used one
with a date and the one in the kit.
Gerard
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 14:07:53
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:03:46 -0400, <dormouse@charter.net > wrote:
> Those packs were danstar nottingham dry yeast that came in a beer kit. both
> of those had no date on the pack , the first beer I used what came with the
> kit, the second one I bought an extra pack of the same danstar which did
> have a date on it and was well before the expire date. It had at least 5
> months till it was expired. So in that case I know it was fresh, I used one
> with a date and the one in the kit.
I don't know, just seems weird. The dry yeast should have 2X - 4X the amount
of yeast, unless it was really mishandled or stored improperly.
John.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 17:58:04
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > writes:
> On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> > Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my LHBS).
> > This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator" pack.
> > This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough yeast
> > cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked the
> > pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
> > fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
>
> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the Activator)
> were pitchable without a starter back when they were the largest size. IMO,
> don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype designed to make their
> product sound as easy to use as possible. With most of the liquid yeast
> companies, their recommendations are generally centered around what is easier
> rather than what makes the best beer.
>
> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2 of
> the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea to make
> a starter.
>
They're claiming 100 billion cells. Next time I know to do the starter
regardless...
> > It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I see
> > perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white patches
> > on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd expect to see
> > if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four hours of work, or
> > is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
>
> 26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter. Contrary
> to what the company claims, you're really still underpitching.
>
> I would guess that the white patches you're seeing are the beginning of
> activity though. They're probably little CO2 bubbles (maybe with some yeast
> stuck to them) collecting on the surface. It shouldn't be too much longer
> until you start seeing obvious signs of fermentation (maybe even by the time
> you read this).
>
Not quite yet. But I'm seeing more of those dots, and the lace collar
is getting a little larger. I've *got* to remember to relax and not
worry!
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 01:12:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
On 10 Jul 2006 17:58:04 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> writes:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>> > Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my LHBS).
>> > This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator" pack.
>> > This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough yeast
>> > cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked the
>> > pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
>> > fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
>>
>> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the Activator)
>> were pitchable without a starter back when they were the largest size. IMO,
>> don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype designed to make their
>> product sound as easy to use as possible. With most of the liquid yeast
>> companies, their recommendations are generally centered around what is easier
>> rather than what makes the best beer.
>>
>> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
>> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2 of
>> the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea to make
>> a starter.
>>
> They're claiming 100 billion cells. Next time I know to do the starter
> regardless...
The standard brewing industry recommendation is 180 - 200 billion cells for
a 5 gallon batch. That's not to say that you *have* to pitch that high, but
I think your results will be better if you do. FWIW, a 10g packet of dry
yeast is around the right amount. That's why starters usually aren't
necessary for dry yeast.
John.
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 11:02:04
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > writes:
>
> The standard brewing industry recommendation is 180 - 200 billion cells for
> a 5 gallon batch. That's not to say that you *have* to pitch that high, but
> I think your results will be better if you do. FWIW, a 10g packet of dry
> yeast is around the right amount. That's why starters usually aren't
> necessary for dry yeast.
>
Thanks again - I awoke this morning to see a nice layer of krausen
on the top of the beer. Looks like the lag was a bit more than I
was prepared for, is all.
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 15:11:31
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
On 11 Jul 2006 11:02:04 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us > wrote:
> Thanks again - I awoke this morning to see a nice layer of krausen
> on the top of the beer. Looks like the lag was a bit more than I
> was prepared for, is all.
FWIW, my rule of thumb is that up to 36 hours I'll just keep being patient.
If it's taking longer than 36 hours for visible fermentation then I'll pitch
some backup yeast. I use liquid yeast for most beers, but I like to keep
a packet or two of dry yeast in the fridge (they'll keep for a long time if
stored cold) just for emergencies.
John.
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 21:58:52
From: ET
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote in
news:slrneb5hta.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net:
> On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>> Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my
>> LHBS). This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator"
>> pack. This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough
>> yeast cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked
>> the pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
>> fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
>
> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the
> Activator) were pitchable without a starter back when they were the
> largest size. IMO, don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype
> designed to make their product sound as easy to use as possible. With
> most of the liquid yeast companies, their recommendations are
> generally centered around what is easier rather than what makes the
> best beer.
>
> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2
> of the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea
> to make a starter.
>
>> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I
>> see perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white
>> patches on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd
>> expect to see if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four
>> hours of work, or is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
>
> 26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter.
> Contrary to what the company claims, you're really still
> underpitching.
>
> I would guess that the white patches you're seeing are the beginning
> of activity though. They're probably little CO2 bubbles (maybe with
> some yeast stuck to them) collecting on the surface. It shouldn't be
> too much longer until you start seeing obvious signs of fermentation
> (maybe even by the time you read this).
>
>
> John.
That's why i LOVE Danstar Nottingham and Winsor... sprinkle the dry
yeast on the wort and forget it... next morning nice krausen.... No
starter, no fuss, no muss...
Maybe I'm strange, but if I have to plan 12 hours + ahead that I'm for
CERTAIN going to brew, I'd never get any brewing done.. or I'd likely
waste alot of liquid yeast as other priorities come up...
--
-- ET >:-)
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 15:07:53
From: Ryan Case
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
ET wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote in
> news:slrneb5hta.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>> Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my
>>> LHBS). This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator"
>>> pack. This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough
>>> yeast cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked
>>> the pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
>>> fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
>> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the
>> Activator) were pitchable without a starter back when they were the
>> largest size. IMO, don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype
>> designed to make their product sound as easy to use as possible. With
>> most of the liquid yeast companies, their recommendations are
>> generally centered around what is easier rather than what makes the
>> best beer.
>>
>> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
>> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2
>> of the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea
>> to make a starter.
>>
>>> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I
>>> see perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white
>>> patches on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd
>>> expect to see if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four
>>> hours of work, or is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
>> 26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter.
>> Contrary to what the company claims, you're really still
>> underpitching.
>>
>> I would guess that the white patches you're seeing are the beginning
>> of activity though. They're probably little CO2 bubbles (maybe with
>> some yeast stuck to them) collecting on the surface. It shouldn't be
>> too much longer until you start seeing obvious signs of fermentation
>> (maybe even by the time you read this).
>>
>>
>> John.
>
> That's why i LOVE Danstar Nottingham and Winsor... sprinkle the dry
> yeast on the wort and forget it... next morning nice krausen.... No
> starter, no fuss, no muss...
>
> Maybe I'm strange, but if I have to plan 12 hours + ahead that I'm for
> CERTAIN going to brew, I'd never get any brewing done.. or I'd likely
> waste alot of liquid yeast as other priorities come up...
>
>
I usually just dump two packets of Nottingham in the bottom of the 12
gallon fermenter and then splash the life out of the wort as I transfer
it in at 80F. I have yet to have a lag that way.
I did use a liquid when brewing a hefe lately as the yeast, I am told,
is a big part of the style. We took about a quart of wort off the sparge
run off, cooled it and pitched to it while boiling the rest. Then
split that between two five gallon fermenters. Didn't experience more
then about 12 hours lag.
Ryan
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 16:27:35
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
ET <ETwig@notreal.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote in
> news:slrneb5hta.sqc.spam@weizen.shagg.net:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2006 16:41:53 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>> Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my
>>> LHBS). This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator"
>>> pack. This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough
>>> yeast cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked
>>> the pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
>>> fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
>>
>> Wyeast also used to claim that the XL packs (half the size of the
>> Activator) were pitchable without a starter back when they were the
>> largest size. IMO, don't believe any of it. It's all marketing hype
>> designed to make their product sound as easy to use as possible. With
>> most of the liquid yeast companies, their recommendations are
>> generally centered around what is easier rather than what makes the
>> best beer.
>>
>> Technically, an XL pack is about 1/4 the amount which is generally
>> recommended for a 5 gallon batch and the Activator pack is about 1/2
>> of the recommended amount. IMO, in both cases it would be a good idea
>> to make a starter.
>>
>>> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I
>>> see perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white
>>> patches on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd
>>> expect to see if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four
>>> hours of work, or is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
>>
>> 26 hours isn't too surprising for liquid yeast without a starter.
>> Contrary to what the company claims, you're really still
>> underpitching.
>>
>> I would guess that the white patches you're seeing are the beginning
>> of activity though. They're probably little CO2 bubbles (maybe with
>> some yeast stuck to them) collecting on the surface. It shouldn't be
>> too much longer until you start seeing obvious signs of fermentation
>> (maybe even by the time you read this).
>>
>>
>> John.
>
> That's why i LOVE Danstar Nottingham and Winsor... sprinkle the dry
> yeast on the wort and forget it... next morning nice krausen.... No
> starter, no fuss, no muss...
>
> Maybe I'm strange, but if I have to plan 12 hours + ahead that I'm for
> CERTAIN going to brew, I'd never get any brewing done.. or I'd likely
> waste alot of liquid yeast as other priorities come up...
>
>
When I use a liquid yeast I make a starter sometimes several days
beforehand and it will "keep" for days. Making a starter is not only
good for the brew but also takes away the time constraint you mention,
which I always hated.
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2006 13:55:16
From: Greg LaPolla
Subject: Re: Is it dead?
|
Don Levey wrote:
> Yesterday I tried a golden ale (from a grain/extract kit from my LHBS).
> This included Wyeast 1335 (British Ale II) in an "Activator" pack.
> This claims to not need a started, supposedly containing enough yeast
> cells for a 5-gallon batch of medium-gravity wort. I smacked the
> pack, got some expansion after 4 hours (it said it may not expand
> fully) and pitched at about 70 deg F into well-aerated wort.
Sounds ok so far
>
> It's now about 26 hours later, and I don't see any real activity. I see
> perhaps a few small bubbles around the edge, and some small white patches
> on the surface. You know, the sort of white dots you'd expect to see
> if there were mold. Have I just trashed over four hours of work, or
> is this the first visible sign of yeast activity?
Dont worry, I have had 30 hours before any activity started, I would
say after 2 days re-pitch if there is no activity.
Greg
> --
> Don Levey $ cd /pub
> Framingham, MA $ more beer
> NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
> will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
|
