I already broke my carboy!!!

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Date: 23 Nov 2006 17:23:09
From: Tony M
Subject: I already broke my carboy!!!

I was sanitizing all my equipment getting ready to rack my current batch to
secondary and I broke my 5 gal carboy. It was half full of an iodophor
solution and as I was pouring the solution back into my bottling bucket it
slipped and hit the concrete. It instantly shattered into a thousand pieces.
I should have just siphoned it back over but instead dropped it. The really
bad part is that this is only my second batch ever so I only got one use out
of it. I think I'm just gonna forget about glass and get a better bottle or
something. I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells 5 gallon water
bottles for about 10 bucks. Has anyone ever used these type water bottles
with any success? I would only use them for a secondary container. Nothing
too long, only about two weeks and only it wouldn't effect my beer.
I made sure to take another gravity reading. The OG was 1.065 and this one
was 1.031. The batch had been in primary for 6 days. Now because I broke my
only glass carboy I had to rack it over into my bottling bucket for
secondary. I'm going out of town Monday so it will secondary in this bucket
for about 3 weeks before I'll have a chance to bottle it. Hopefully it
shouldn't make a difference. Can anyone help me out with the gravity
readings? How much of a drop should I expect and How exactly do I calculate
alchohol content? Thanks again everyone for all your help while I go through
the learning curve.
Tony

Date: 24 Nov 2006 04:24:37
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

I secondary ales in a bottling bucket for a week or two and
then keg it. My experience is that beer does not go well
with carboys - well at least not if I have to clean the
carboy.

There are at least nine carboys in my basement and they
get used only for Mead after it's been primaried.

It would be an understatement to say I am extremely careful
with anything that is glass - primarily because I do not
want my childbride to hear it break as she will come down
to micro-manage the clean-up and interrogate me. :)

Dick

Date: 23 Nov 2006 22:21:35
From: Ed Edelenbos
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

"Tony M" <fakeemail@null.com > wrote in message
news:HsadnfGg2dX21PvYnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com...
>I was sanitizing all my equipment getting ready to rack my current batch to
>secondary and I broke my 5 gal carboy. It was half full of an iodophor
>solution and as I was pouring the solution back into my bottling bucket it
>slipped and hit the concrete. It instantly shattered into a thousand
>pieces. I should have just siphoned it back over but instead dropped it.
>The really bad part is that this is only my second batch ever so I only got
>one use out of it. I think I'm just gonna forget about glass and get a
>better bottle or something. I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells 5
>gallon water bottles for about 10 bucks. Has anyone ever used these type
>water bottles with any success? I would only use them for a secondary
>container. Nothing too long, only about two weeks and only it wouldn't
>effect my beer.
> I made sure to take another gravity reading. The OG was 1.065 and this
> one was 1.031. The batch had been in primary for 6 days. Now because I
> broke my only glass carboy I had to rack it over into my bottling bucket
> for secondary. I'm going out of town Monday so it will secondary in this
> bucket for about 3 weeks before I'll have a chance to bottle it. Hopefully
> it shouldn't make a difference. Can anyone help me out with the gravity
> readings? How much of a drop should I expect and How exactly do I
> calculate alchohol content? Thanks again everyone for all your help while
> I go through the learning curve.
> Tony
>

Welcome to the hobby... eventually you'll want another glass one but the
plastic jug will get you through a bunch of batches... plus they are nice
to have around (trust me...). Esepcially for the 1-3 weeks your beer will
sit in the secondary, there is nothing to worry about.

Ed

Date: 23 Nov 2006 20:25:39
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

Tony M wrote:
I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells 5 gallon water
> bottles for about 10 bucks. Has anyone ever used these type water bottles
> with any success? I would only use them for a secondary container. Nothing
> too long, only about two weeks and only it wouldn't effect my beer.

The big problem with these are that they are oxygen permeable. However
if you are only going to leave a beer in there for a week or two, it
shouldn't be a problem. You should look into the plastic "Better
Bottle" at your LHBS for a longer term solution.

> I made sure to take another gravity reading. The OG was 1.065 and this one
> was 1.031. The batch had been in primary for 6 days. Now because I broke my
> only glass carboy I had to rack it over into my bottling bucket for
> secondary. I'm going out of town Monday so it will secondary in this bucket
> for about 3 weeks before I'll have a chance to bottle it. Hopefully it
> shouldn't make a difference. Can anyone help me out with the gravity
> readings? How much of a drop should I expect and How exactly do I calculate
> alchohol content?

My first thought in reading this was that you racked your beer to
secondary much too early. I realize you probably went with the
conventional wisdom that you put a beer in primary for one week and then
secondary for two weeks. In reality, if you are going to use a
secondary, you should wait until the gravity has dropped to close to
your expected final gravity. Assuming you did an extract batch, your
expected final gravity is probably around 1.018 or so. I would
recommend racking at around 1.021-1.022.

Anymore I seldom use a secondary at all. Most newer brewers are
paranoid about yeast autolysis from the beer sitting on dead yeast too
long. It would take 7-8 weeks for this to begin to happen in most
cases. You can easily leave your beer in primary for over a month with
no problems. I routinely leave my beers in primary for 3 or 4 weeks and
keg or bottle from there with no secondary.

In spite of racking early, there should still be plenty of yeast in
solution to finish fermentation, though it may not ferment out quite as
far as it should.

There are formulas out there for figuring out the exact alcohol content,
but I just rely on my brewing software to figure it out for me. For a
rough estimate, assuming normal attenuation rates for your fermentation,
just look at the last two numbers in your original gravity. In this
case your OG was 1.065. This would give you an expected 6.5% ABV
(alcohol by volume). There are many other factors that would affect
this, but this will get you close if everything else goes right.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Date: 27 Nov 2006 21:00:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:25:39 -0600, <bugeaterbrewing@charter.net > wrote:
> Tony M wrote:
> I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells 5 gallon water
>> bottles for about 10 bucks. Has anyone ever used these type water bottles
>> with any success? I would only use them for a secondary container. Nothing
>> too long, only about two weeks and only it wouldn't effect my beer.
>
> The big problem with these are that they are oxygen permeable. However
> if you are only going to leave a beer in there for a week or two, it
> shouldn't be a problem. You should look into the plastic "Better
> Bottle" at your LHBS for a longer term solution.

Personally, I'd just go and get a plastic fermentation bucket from the LHBS.
It's a lot cheaper than a "better bottle" and functionally does the exact
same thing. I agree that a water bottle would be "OK" for short term
secondaries, but I think a plastic bucket will be better in the long run.
Eventually you'll want to do a longer secondary for something, and I think
the much thicker plastic that the buckets are made out of will be a lot
better than the thin water bottles.

>> I made sure to take another gravity reading. The OG was 1.065 and this one
>> was 1.031. The batch had been in primary for 6 days. Now because I broke my
>> only glass carboy I had to rack it over into my bottling bucket for
>> secondary. I'm going out of town Monday so it will secondary in this bucket
>> for about 3 weeks before I'll have a chance to bottle it. Hopefully it
>> shouldn't make a difference. Can anyone help me out with the gravity
>> readings? How much of a drop should I expect and How exactly do I calculate
>> alchohol content?
>
> My first thought in reading this was that you racked your beer to
> secondary much too early. I realize you probably went with the
> conventional wisdom that you put a beer in primary for one week and then
> secondary for two weeks. In reality, if you are going to use a
> secondary, you should wait until the gravity has dropped to close to
> your expected final gravity. Assuming you did an extract batch, your
> expected final gravity is probably around 1.018 or so. I would
> recommend racking at around 1.021-1.022.

Personally, I don't think the timing for when to rack to the secondary is all
that critical. It probably doesn't make any significant difference.

> Anymore I seldom use a secondary at all. Most newer brewers are
> paranoid about yeast autolysis from the beer sitting on dead yeast too
> long. It would take 7-8 weeks for this to begin to happen in most
> cases. You can easily leave your beer in primary for over a month with
> no problems. I routinely leave my beers in primary for 3 or 4 weeks and
> keg or bottle from there with no secondary.

I definitely agree. I think some of the homebrewing books tend to be
overly paranoid in their autolysis warnings. IMO, this is where some of the
misconceptions come from. I don't think it's an issue unless you are talking
about spending months in the primary.

> In spite of racking early, there should still be plenty of yeast in
> solution to finish fermentation, though it may not ferment out quite as
> far as it should.

Theoretically, the earlier you rack the more yeast should end up in the
secondary. I don't think this is anything to worry about. IMO, it shouldn't
effect your final attenuation.

John.

Date: 29 Nov 2006 09:16:54
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:

> Personally, I'd just go and get a plastic fermentation bucket from the LHBS.
> It's a lot cheaper than a "better bottle" and functionally does the exact
> same thing. I agree that a water bottle would be "OK" for short term
> secondaries, but I think a plastic bucket will be better in the long run.
> Eventually you'll want to do a longer secondary for something, and I think
> the much thicker plastic that the buckets are made out of will be a lot
> better than the thin water bottles.

Dan Schultz, a plastics scientist, posted this to HBD today. It appears
that the bucket is much more impermeable to O2 than the BB.

While the PET plastic used in the BB carboys is slightly better than the
polycarbonate (PC) plastic
used in typical plastic carboys with respect to oxygen permeation, there
isn't enough difference to justify the extra cost.

PC does not impart flavors or they wouldn't use it for water so there's
no
difference there. Both PET and PC carboys are relatively thin wall and I
would not recommend either for long term storage of beer. Use for
fermentation is quite okay since the yeast are active and will scavage
any
available O2. Plus, some will get scrubbed out by the generation of CO2
during fermentation.

The real question is how long is okay for storage of beer after
fermentation. There's no exact answer here but most homebrewers report
than
up to 60 to 90 days works well for them and I tend to agree. I have
always
prefered the storage ease of a Corny so I've never gone beyond about 90
days.

A better solution to either PC or PET carboys is the old standby:
plastic
buckets. HDPE has better O2 permeation than PC or PET and bucket walls
are
at least two to four times thicker. So if you think the BB carboys are a
good buy at $25 (or whatever they cost), try a bucket and then enjoy the
extra features like cleanability, durability and ease of use. The only
negative I see with plastic buckets is that you can't watch the
fermentation
happen. I've seen that often enough that I don't miss that any more.

When you consider how cheap a Corny is, it's hard to justify using a
bucket
or carboy even if you don't have a CO2 system to push the beer in the
Corny
aorund.

I have a O2 permeation chart for pastics at
http://www.oregonbrewcrew.com/schultz/o2perm.jpg.

--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.

Date: 29 Nov 2006 18:29:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:16:54 -0800, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> Personally, I'd just go and get a plastic fermentation bucket from the LHBS.
>> It's a lot cheaper than a "better bottle" and functionally does the exact
>> same thing. I agree that a water bottle would be "OK" for short term
>> secondaries, but I think a plastic bucket will be better in the long run.
>> Eventually you'll want to do a longer secondary for something, and I think
>> the much thicker plastic that the buckets are made out of will be a lot
>> better than the thin water bottles.
>
> Dan Schultz, a plastics scientist, posted this to HBD today. It appears
> that the bucket is much more impermeable to O2 than the BB.

Denny, good information. Thanks for passing it on.

John.

Date: 24 Nov 2006 02:04:53
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

"Tony M" <fakeemail@null.com > wrote in message
news:HsadnfGg2dX21PvYnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com...
Thanks again everyone for all your help while I go through
> the learning curve.
> Tony
You'll never stop going through the learning curve in this game - just keeps
getting longer.
Steve W (in Aus)

Date: 24 Nov 2006 07:38:13
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

> I plan to use cornys as secondary for lagering since I only have a 2 keg
> fridge for now. The question is, do I hookup the gas line for a blow off
> tube or twy to rig up an airlock?
Do you mean set up an air lock on the cornie? I have mine under about
5 psi of pressure right now. The pressure guage will vent out of the
keg as well as put Co2 in if it's under.

I found that if I just give it a blast at 5psi to seal the lid, in the
current cold weather, the Co2 gets taken in to solution and the
pressure is too low, so I had to keep topping it up to be confident of
a good seal on the lid.

> I'll probably stick with carboys for now.. we'll see how it goes with
> cornys and maybe I'll stick with that.
Please be very careful with them. I was considering making a strong
wooden 'basket' with handles to carry them around, but this wtill
wouldn't help with rinsing etc, which for me was the most dangerous
part because they were very slippery.

Cheers,
Mark

Date: 24 Nov 2006 17:34:45
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

MarkMc wrote:
> Please be very careful with them. I was considering making a strong
> wooden 'basket' with handles to carry them around, but this wtill
> wouldn't help with rinsing etc, which for me was the most dangerous
> part because they were very slippery.

Instead of trying to build something, latch onto a plastic milk crate.
Get your hands on one of the ones the dairies use, not the cheap
designer pieces of junk the discount department stores sell as
organizers. A carboy (either 5 or 6.5 gallon) will fit nicely into
these and give you something to hang on to and cushion the bottom when
setting it down.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Date: 25 Nov 2006 02:52:53
From: Artarius
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

Found mine when dumpster diving.

Wayne wrote:
> MarkMc wrote:
>> Please be very careful with them. I was considering making a strong
>> wooden 'basket' with handles to carry them around, but this wtill
>> wouldn't help with rinsing etc, which for me was the most dangerous
>> part because they were very slippery.
>
> Instead of trying to build something, latch onto a plastic milk crate.
> Get your hands on one of the ones the dairies use, not the cheap
> designer pieces of junk the discount department stores sell as
> organizers. A carboy (either 5 or 6.5 gallon) will fit nicely into
> these and give you something to hang on to and cushion the bottom when
> setting it down.
>
> Wayne
> Bugeater Brewing Company

--
---
You can grow to love a hobby TOO much.
Practice MODERATION..., it IS your friend. -my dearly departed Daddy.

Date: 25 Nov 2006 04:53:05
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

Wayne <bugeaterbrewing@charter.net > wrote:
> MarkMc wrote:

>> Please be very careful with them. I was considering making a strong
>> wooden 'basket' with handles to carry them around, but this wtill
>> wouldn't help with rinsing etc, which for me was the most dangerous
>> part because they were very slippery.

> Instead of trying to build something, latch onto a plastic milk crate.
> Get your hands on one of the ones the dairies use, not the cheap
> designer pieces of junk the discount department stores sell as
> organizers. A carboy (either 5 or 6.5 gallon) will fit nicely into
> these and give you something to hang on to and cushion the bottom when
> setting it down.

Very good point.

When I clean my carboys, I lay them on their side on the counter
next to the sink. For both BPW and Iodophor, they get filled to
the neck and left to soak there with a brick making certain they
do not roll anywhere.

Dick

Date: 24 Nov 2006 03:46:36
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

I recently ordered up a few more cornie kegs to use as secondaries and
I've had so many near misses with the glass carboys that it's only a
matter of time before I have an accident.

I've heard so many horror stories about them, including severed
arteries, so I made the decision to ditch them. No more glass carboys
for me.

Ok I can't see the progress, but I just take a sample - that's more fun
anyway!

Cheers,
Mark

Date: 24 Nov 2006 16:49:43
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

MarkMc <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:

> I recently ordered up a few more cornie kegs to use as secondaries and
> I've had so many near misses with the glass carboys that it's only a
> matter of time before I have an accident.
>
> I've heard so many horror stories about them, including severed
> arteries, so I made the decision to ditch them. No more glass carboys
> for me.

Unwanted carboys are welcome at my house.

Dick

Date: 24 Nov 2006 16:56:28
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

Date: 24 Nov 2006 10:21:41
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

MarkMc wrote:

> I recently ordered up a few more cornie kegs to use as secondaries and
> I've had so many near misses with the glass carboys that it's only a
> matter of time before I have an accident.

I plan to use cornys as secondary for lagering since I only have a 2 keg
fridge for now. The question is, do I hookup the gas line for a blow off
tube or twy to rig up an airlock?

> I've heard so many horror stories about them, including severed
> arteries, so I made the decision to ditch them. No more glass carboys
> for me.

I'll probably stick with carboys for now.. we'll see how it goes with
cornys and maybe I'll stick with that.

--
Dan

Date: 27 Nov 2006 21:10:10
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: I already broke my carboy!!!

On 24 Nov 2006 03:46:36 -0800, <mmcnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> I recently ordered up a few more cornie kegs to use as secondaries and
> I've had so many near misses with the glass carboys that it's only a
> matter of time before I have an accident.
>
> I've heard so many horror stories about them, including severed
> arteries, so I made the decision to ditch them. No more glass carboys
> for me.
>
> Ok I can't see the progress, but I just take a sample - that's more fun
> anyway!

Carboys can be used safely, but you definitely have to be careful with them.
I think most people run into trouble with them because they forget how
careful they need to be when they're in the middle of doing something. Most
of the time I hear of someone who broke one, they usually admit afterwards
"I shouldn't have been doing that", but they get caught up in the moment and
forget about the safety part. IMO, you definitely need to keep it in the
back of your mind when handling them.

There's certainly nothing wrong with being concerned about them though. If
they make you uncomfortable, then IMO, switching to something else is a
good idea.

John.