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Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:14:08
From: JS
Subject: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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The more I read about hot and cold trub (break) formation and removal,
the more confused I become. From what I understand, the hot and cold
trubs are two different things. Some sources state that removal of
both kinds is essential, others that only the hot break removal is
necessary, still others that homebrewers need not concern themselves
with either one.
While my wort is coming to a boil, much foam is produced that will
later clump and fall back into the wort as hot break. I routinely
skim off as much of this as I can, before adding hops, with a fine
mesh hand strainer. Am I not in fact removing break by doing this?
Some of my brews have recently ended up cloudy, yet I did use Irish
moss. I also use an immersion chiller, getting the wort below 80F
during summer, or below 70F during winter, within 20 mins. I've tried
using whirlpooling in the kettle, after cooling, and carefully racking
from the edge. However, I do not wait long before siphoning, and
possibly did not leave behind enough cold break.
A few questions:
a) If I don't skim the foam during boil, must the hot break be
removed while wort is still hot, or will the hot and cold break
materials settle out together after cooling?
b) How long should one whirlpool, and how long after doing so should
one wait before racking?
c) How useful is a settling tank, i.e. a vessel in which the cooled
wort is allowed to settle for 12-18 hours, after which wort is
transfered to the fermenter and pitched?
d) Even if I go to no trouble to remove cold break, won't it settle
out anyway eventually in the fermenter? (I have noticed more haze
problems since I started skipping 2ndary. I used to 2ndary until I
could see my hand thru the wort, then I'd bottle.)
Sorry for the long post, but I need some feedback on this issue. All
responses welcome.
John S.
--
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 23:57:58
From: stencil
Subject: Re: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:14:08 -0400, JS wrote:
>
>While my wort is coming to a boil, much foam is produced that will
>later clump and fall back into the wort as hot break. I routinely
>skim off as much of this as I can, before adding hops, with a fine
>mesh hand strainer. Am I not in fact removing break by doing this?
>
Yes, but if you leave it in the wort for the duration of the boil,
this gummy particulate matter will roll around collecting even finer
particles and thus help clarify the brew. Think floorsweeping
compound. Don't skim; spoon it back into the boil.
>[ ... ]
>b) How long should one whirlpool, and how long after doing so should
>one wait before racking?
Consider dispensing with the whirling altogether. After installing
the (dry) immersion chiller I monitor temp and wait until it has
dropped to ca 180F before running the cooling water. This ensures
sanitizing the chiller and also gives time for the break matter to
settle firmly on the hops leaves. I drain through a screened slotted
manifold a la Bazooka Screen, and clogging is not a problem. In this
phase the kettle is covered with a freshly laundered bath towel, not
the kettle lid. Even if you use pellet hops and a racking cane it's
no big huhu to pull fairly clean wort to the fermenter.
I'd be more concerned about letting in oxygen when the wort's hot and,
later, microbe-laden dust than with taking up a bit of trub.
>[ ... ]
>d) Even if I go to no trouble to remove cold break, won't it settle
>out anyway eventually in the fermenter? (I have noticed more haze
>problems since I started skipping 2ndary. I used to 2ndary until I
>could see my hand thru the wort, then I'd bottle.)
I believe you've answered your own question here.
stencil sends
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 20:43:50
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:14:08 -0400, < > wrote:
> The more I read about hot and cold trub (break) formation and removal,
> the more confused I become. From what I understand, the hot and cold
> trubs are two different things. Some sources state that removal of
> both kinds is essential, others that only the hot break removal is
> necessary, still others that homebrewers need not concern themselves
> with either one.
My standard advice is that if you have an easy method for removing the
break, then go ahead. However, especially for beginners, there are a lot
more important things to worry about. It's not something I would really
get hung up on. (Not that I'm saying you're a beginner JS, but the bit
about beginners is part of my "standard" advice).
Cold break is essentially harmless. Hot break has the potential for
causing problems if left in during fermentation. However, healthy
pitching rates and good aeration will help to minimize any problems
that the hot break causes. Basically, the hot break can cause the yeast
to throw some off flavors during fermentation, especially if the yeast
are unhealthy/stressed.
> While my wort is coming to a boil, much foam is produced that will
> later clump and fall back into the wort as hot break. I routinely
> skim off as much of this as I can, before adding hops, with a fine
> mesh hand strainer. Am I not in fact removing break by doing this?
You're removing some of it. I don't really bother skimming anymore, and
I don't notice that it makes any difference. You're probably only going
to get a small percentage of the break by doing this. IMO, it's not
really worth the effort.
> Some of my brews have recently ended up cloudy, yet I did use Irish
> moss. I also use an immersion chiller, getting the wort below 80F
> during summer, or below 70F during winter, within 20 mins. I've tried
> using whirlpooling in the kettle, after cooling, and carefully racking
> from the edge. However, I do not wait long before siphoning, and
> possibly did not leave behind enough cold break.
Cold break will not cause cloudiness. Once the material actually goes
through a cold break, it will not redisolve back into the beer. When
the material does cause cloudiness is if you don't ever get a good
cold break. What happens to the stuff after it has "broken" (can't think
of a better word) doesn't really effect clarity.
> A few questions:
> a) If I don't skim the foam during boil, must the hot break be
> removed while wort is still hot, or will the hot and cold break
> materials settle out together after cooling?
No, you don't have to remove it while still hot. Both the hot and cold
break will settle together after cooling.
> b) How long should one whirlpool
Long enough to create one
>, and how long after doing so should one wait before racking?
Long enough that the whirlpool stops.
> c) How useful is a settling tank, i.e. a vessel in which the cooled
> wort is allowed to settle for 12-18 hours, after which wort is
> transfered to the fermenter and pitched?
For homebrewing, IMO, not at all. Some people do this, but IMO it probably
doesn't make much real difference, especially if you are doing something
to try and leave most of the break behind in the kettle. It's probably
going to be impossible to remove *all* of the break material, even for
commercial breweries.
> d) Even if I go to no trouble to remove cold break, won't it settle
> out anyway eventually in the fermenter?
Yes.
> (I have noticed more haze
> problems since I started skipping 2ndary. I used to 2ndary until I
> could see my hand thru the wort, then I'd bottle.)
The haze you're seeing is probably not associated with the cold break
then. IMO, you're probably seeing yeast that isn't flocculating out
completely. Personally, clarity is not the highest thing on my priority
list. However, I do secondary most of my beers and I think it does
help with clarity.
John.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:22:39
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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JS <jayceeessfouratfrontiernetdotnet > wrote:
> The more I read about hot and cold trub (break) formation and removal,
> the more confused I become. From what I understand, the hot and cold
> trubs are two different things.
Yes. Hot break is insoluble material that forms during the boil as large
molecules (mostly proteins, I think) clump together. Cold break is
similar, but different in that this material *IS* soluble at higher
temperatures, and precipitates out of solution as the wort cools.
> Some sources state that removal of both kinds is essential, others that
> only the hot break removal is necessary, still others that homebrewers
> need not concern themselves with either one.
Debates rage. I think the one thing everyone would agree on is that you
want to remove all of both before you keg or bottle it. :-)
My opinion is that you should attempt to leave as much hot break as possible
in the boil kettle. Your beer will not be ruined if some of it sneaks
through. It will settle in the fermenter, and you can get rid of even more
of it when you rack the beer into a secondary.
Getting rid of cold break depends on how you actually go about cooling your
wort. If you use an immersion chiller in the boil kettle, the cold break
will form there, and be essentially indistinguishable from the hot break.
As with the hot break, leave as much behind as you can, but there is no
reason to be anal about it. If you use a CF chiller going directly into
the fermenter, the cold break will be there in the fermenter until you rack
the beer.
IMO, you should try to eliminate as much hot and cold break as you can, and
as soon as you can, but do not loose any sleep over it.
> While my wort is coming to a boil, much foam is produced that will
> later clump and fall back into the wort as hot break. I routinely
> skim off as much of this as I can, before adding hops, with a fine
> mesh hand strainer. Am I not in fact removing break by doing this?
Some, I suppose. I don't think the foam you get as the wort begins to boil
is actually hot break at all. Remember that hot break will *not* dissolve
back into the wort! Even if you skim off all of the foam, you would still
not hot break to remove.
Personally, I think skimming off the foam is a waste of time.
> a) If I don't skim the foam during boil, must the hot break be
> removed while wort is still hot, or will the hot and cold break
> materials settle out together after cooling?
They will both settle out after cooling.
> b) How long should one whirlpool, and how long after doing so should
> one wait before racking?
It's just a simple mechanical action of moving material to the center of the
kettle. You should whirlpool until that happens. Think in terms of a few
seconds to a minute (for homebrew volumes), rather than in minutes.
> c) How useful is a settling tank, i.e. a vessel in which the cooled
> wort is allowed to settle for 12-18 hours, after which wort is
> transfered to the fermenter and pitched?
You may get some differences of opinion. My opinion is that getting the
wort cooled to pitching temperature and pitching that yeast is the number
one priority when the boil has been completed. The longer it takes to get
an active fermentation, the more vulnerable it is. I would not use a
settling tank in this manner.
> d) Even if I go to no trouble to remove cold break, won't it settle
> out anyway eventually in the fermenter?
Yes. And if you rack carefully, you will remove almost all of it.
> (I have noticed more haze problems since I started skipping 2ndary. I
> used to 2ndary until I could see my hand thru the wort, then I'd bottle.)
You are probably seeing a chill haze. Removing the cold break by racking
into a secondary should *reduce* that. In any case, the "correct" point to
bottle is when fermentation is complete. The best way to determine when
that has occurred is by checking the SG periodically. When it does not
change for a few days, it's ready to bottle.
> Sorry for the long post, but I need some feedback on this issue. All
> responses welcome.
Sorry for the long answer! HTH! :-)
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 20:52:56
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:22:39 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>> c) How useful is a settling tank, i.e. a vessel in which the cooled
>> wort is allowed to settle for 12-18 hours, after which wort is
>> transfered to the fermenter and pitched?
>
> You may get some differences of opinion. My opinion is that getting the
> wort cooled to pitching temperature and pitching that yeast is the number
> one priority when the boil has been completed. The longer it takes to get
> an active fermentation, the more vulnerable it is. I would not use a
> settling tank in this manner.
Good point. Getting the yeast pitched and fermentation started is *much*
more important than trying to remove the rest of the break. If someone is
letting the beer sit around for 12-18 hours before pitching just to get
rid of some break, I would say that their priorities are backwards.
The way I've seen some people do it is that they rack to a vessel and pitch
the yeast right away, then 24 hours or so later they rack to another vessel.
That's a different version of the settling tank idea. While I don't think
it is really necessary, that method is probably better than the one where
you let the beer sit around before pitching yeast. Even then, if active
fermentation has already started then most of the break is probably going
to be stirred up into the wort. If fermentation hasn't started yet, I
wonder if they are leaving behind yeast as well as break when they rack
to another vessel.
John.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 19:43:24
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Hot & Cold Trub Questions
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JS <jayceeessfouratfrontiernetdotnet > wrote:
> The more I read about hot and cold trub (break) formation and removal,
> the more confused I become. From what I understand, the hot and cold
> trubs are two different things. Some sources state that removal of
> both kinds is essential, others that only the hot break removal is
> necessary, still others that homebrewers need not concern themselves
> with either one.
>
I can't really answer your question, but I can say that I've never
cared about it until now. I have 4 AG batches under my belt and I've
always just poured the kettle contents en masse through a strainer
(after cooling) to get some of the bits out. I think I've ended up
with lots of break material in my fermenter this way. It all settles
out and is lost when I rack to secondary.
It doesn't seem to effect the taste or mouthfeel at all, but I *am*
doing battle with a cloudiness problem that is *not* chill haze, and I
think this break material might be the cause?
Just a thought. Still learning.
> While my wort is coming to a boil, much foam is produced that will
> later clump and fall back into the wort as hot break. I routinely
> skim off as much of this as I can, before adding hops, with a fine
> mesh hand strainer. Am I not in fact removing break by doing this?
>
> Some of my brews have recently ended up cloudy, yet I did use Irish
> moss. I also use an immersion chiller, getting the wort below 80F
> during summer, or below 70F during winter, within 20 mins. I've tried
> using whirlpooling in the kettle, after cooling, and carefully racking
> from the edge. However, I do not wait long before siphoning, and
> possibly did not leave behind enough cold break.
>
> A few questions:
> a) If I don't skim the foam during boil, must the hot break be
> removed while wort is still hot, or will the hot and cold break
> materials settle out together after cooling?
> b) How long should one whirlpool, and how long after doing so should
> one wait before racking?
> c) How useful is a settling tank, i.e. a vessel in which the cooled
> wort is allowed to settle for 12-18 hours, after which wort is
> transfered to the fermenter and pitched?
> d) Even if I go to no trouble to remove cold break, won't it settle
> out anyway eventually in the fermenter? (I have noticed more haze
> problems since I started skipping 2ndary. I used to 2ndary until I
> could see my hand thru the wort, then I'd bottle.)
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I need some feedback on this issue. All
> responses welcome.
>
> John S.
>
> --
> Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
> ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
> Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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