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Date: 04 Nov 2006 00:32:48
From: Artarius
Subject: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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Here is the recipe (all grain):
I used this site: http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/sparge.html
RECIPE - Poor Richard's Ale
OG: 1.068 (suggested range = 1.060 - 1.086)
FG: 1.018 (suggested range = 1.014 - 1.030)
IBU: 27 (suggested range = 25 - 35)
SRM: 17 (suggested range = 12 - 25)
BU/GU Ratio: 0.39 (Strong Scotch Ale = 0.41 from AOB Style Guidelines
& Daniels)
Ingredients for 5-gallons all-grain: (Assuming 63% efficiency)
Maris Otter ('Low Malt') = 8.5lbs. (59%)
Flaked Corn = 2.75 lbs. (19%)
Biscuit ('High Malt') = 1.75 lbs. (12%)
Special Roast ('High Malt') = 1.00 lbs. (7%)
Black Patent ('High Malt') = 2 oz. (1%)
Medium or Dark Molasses (not Blackstrap) = 4 oz (2%) - 15 minutes from
end of boil
Mash: 154 F for 45 min or until complete conversion
Hops:
Whole Flower Kent Goldings (5.0% AA) (GOOD FOR FWH)
0.50 oz. - 0 min FWH
0.75 oz. - 60 min
0.75 oz. - 45 min
0.25 oz. - 30 min
Boil: 90 minutes
Yeast:
English - White Labs 002 (Wyeast 1968) OR Scottish - White Labs 028
(Wyeast 1728)
Add molasses with 15 minutes left in the boil.
put the really dark grains in right at the end of the mash
This will be the 1st use of my newly made mash tun. Well my 1st all
grain actually.
1st question: Where it says "Wort lost to dead space" I put 1 gallon
as I have made my 52qt ice cube, the one that is labled "Marine" and has no
wheels and no ramp up to the drain, with a ssteel braid hose and I have made
a ssteel spring and put it inside. The bulkhead I chose is actually a LP gas
fitting that is ultra short and fits right in the recess in the drain. I
foresee very little lost to dead space. Is this 1gal I put in there a
reasonable guess?
2nd question: Where it says Recipe Volume, I put 5gal as that is what
the recipe is based on. since there is no "Desired Kettle Volume" I put
5gal. Is this a reasonable guess?
3rd question: Under the heading: Batch Sparge Results" it says
"GrainScale Up Factor 1.420 and next to it it says "Total Grain Required
17.2"
I dont think I can up my grain bill and stay within the recipe
guideline. What to do with this?
4th question: I will be checking for conversion using iodine (7%).
Should I check before 45min as the recipe states " 45 min or untill complete
conversion"?
Calculations based upon the following article by Ken Schwartz:
A Formulation Procedure for No-Sparge and Batch-Sparge Recipes
Target Values Grain Weight
(lbs) Absorption Factor
Recipe Volume
(gallons) Grain Displacement Factor
Recipe Gravity
(1.xxx) Wort Lost to Dead Space
(gallons)
Desired Kettle Volume
(gallons)
No Sparge Results Grain Scale-up Factor 1.420 Total Mash Water
Volume 11.0
Total Grain Required 20.2 Runoff Gravity 1.057
Mash Thickness 0.423 Mash Tun Volume Required 12.7
Batch Sparge Results Grain Scale-up Factor 1.211 Total Grain
Required 17.2
Mash Thickness 0.299 Mash Tun Volume Required 7.3
Total Mash Water Volume 5.1 Sparge Water Required 3.0
1st Runoff Volume 3.0 2nd Runoff Volume 3.0
1st Runoff Gravity 1.080 2nd Runoff Gravity 1.033
© 2001 - 2006 Tastybrew.com.
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 18:44:22
From:
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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>
> 1st question: Where it says "Wort lost to dead space" I put 1 gallon
> as I have made my 52qt ice cube, the one that is labled "Marine" and has no
> wheels and no ramp up to the drain, with a ssteel braid hose and I have made
> a ssteel spring and put it inside. The bulkhead I chose is actually a LP gas
> fitting that is ultra short and fits right in the recess in the drain. I
> foresee very little lost to dead space. Is this 1gal I put in there a
> reasonable guess?
Not if you can drain it pretty dry, in other words getting all the wort
out, then it should be pretty close to zero. Maybe plug 1/2 a quart in
just for grins.
>
> 2nd question: Where it says Recipe Volume, I put 5gal as that is what
> the recipe is based on. since there is no "Desired Kettle Volume" I put
> 5gal. Is this a reasonable guess?
There should be a (pre) boil volume and a batch volume, in other words
boil volume, lets say 6 gallons pre-boil and 5 gallons going to the
fermenter. I think this is used mostly for OG and hop utilization
calculations.
> 3rd question: Under the heading: Batch Sparge Results" it says
> "GrainScale Up Factor 1.420 and next to it it says "Total Grain Required
> 17.2"
>
> I dont think I can up my grain bill and stay within the recipe
> guideline. What to do with this?
Can't help you there, I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
>
> 4th question: I will be checking for conversion using iodine (7%).
> Should I check before 45min as the recipe states " 45 min or untill complete
> conversion"?
>
With today's highly modified malt, I wouldn't waste my time checking
for conversion. I'm assuming you're doing a single infusion mash
~150F. I'd just let it sit for an hour and either mashout or drain,
then sparge and not worry about it.
>
Calculations based upon the following article by Ken Schwartz:
> A Formulation Procedure for No-Sparge and Batch-Sparge Recipes
>
no sparge, why, what a waste?
you want to sparge, but you use no sparge calculations? That throw's
the whole calculation thing off.
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 13:34:33
From: Artarius
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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That was just a copy and paste that was at the bottom of the page.
Not part of my post.
<cain.alan@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1162608262.014821.257800@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> 1st question: Where it says "Wort lost to dead space" I put 1
>> gallon
>> as I have made my 52qt ice cube, the one that is labled "Marine" and has
>> no
>> wheels and no ramp up to the drain, with a ssteel braid hose and I have
>> made
>> a ssteel spring and put it inside. The bulkhead I chose is actually a LP
>> gas
>> fitting that is ultra short and fits right in the recess in the drain. I
>> foresee very little lost to dead space. Is this 1gal I put in there a
>> reasonable guess?
>
> Not if you can drain it pretty dry, in other words getting all the wort
> out, then it should be pretty close to zero. Maybe plug 1/2 a quart in
> just for grins.
>>
>> 2nd question: Where it says Recipe Volume, I put 5gal as that is
>> what
>> the recipe is based on. since there is no "Desired Kettle Volume" I put
>> 5gal. Is this a reasonable guess?
>
> There should be a (pre) boil volume and a batch volume, in other words
> boil volume, lets say 6 gallons pre-boil and 5 gallons going to the
> fermenter. I think this is used mostly for OG and hop utilization
> calculations.
>
>
>
>> 3rd question: Under the heading: Batch Sparge Results" it says
>> "GrainScale Up Factor 1.420 and next to it it says "Total Grain Required
>> 17.2"
>>
>> I dont think I can up my grain bill and stay within the recipe
>> guideline. What to do with this?
>
> Can't help you there, I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
>>
>> 4th question: I will be checking for conversion using iodine (7%).
>> Should I check before 45min as the recipe states " 45 min or untill
>> complete
>> conversion"?
>>
> With today's highly modified malt, I wouldn't waste my time checking
> for conversion. I'm assuming you're doing a single infusion mash
> ~150F. I'd just let it sit for an hour and either mashout or drain,
> then sparge and not worry about it.
>>
>
> Calculations based upon the following article by Ken Schwartz:
>> A Formulation Procedure for No-Sparge and Batch-Sparge Recipes
>>
> no sparge, why, what a waste?
>
> you want to sparge, but you use no sparge calculations? That throw's
> the whole calculation thing off.
>
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 17:25:47
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:34:33 GMT, <someone@microsoft.com > wrote:
>> Calculations based upon the following article by Ken Schwartz:
>>> A Formulation Procedure for No-Sparge and Batch-Sparge Recipes
Calculations like that are nice in theory, but are probably way more
complicated than you really want to get on your first attempt. IMO, just
do your first batch sparge and drain into your kettle. Then measure how
much you got and figure out how much more you need in order to hit your
desired kettle volume (probably 1 to 1.5 gallons more than your batch size).
Then use the difference as the size of your second batch sparge.
IOW, if your first batch sparge gives you 3.5 gallons in the kettle and you
want to start your boil with 6.5 gallons, just use another 3 gallons of
water for your second batch sparge. That is going to be a lot simpler than
trying to use fancy formulas to try and calculate it all out ahead of time.
John.
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 23:44:31
From:
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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Denny???? Where are you!!!!!!
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 09:49:04
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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Artarius wrote:
> 1st question: Where it says "Wort lost to dead space" I put 1 gallon
> as I have made my 52qt ice cube, the one that is labled "Marine" and has no
> wheels and no ramp up to the drain, with a ssteel braid hose and I have made
> a ssteel spring and put it inside. The bulkhead I chose is actually a LP gas
> fitting that is ultra short and fits right in the recess in the drain. I
> foresee very little lost to dead space. Is this 1gal I put in there a
> reasonable guess?
Maybe, maybe not...you won't know til after you've brewed. I'd set it
to zero for now....
> 2nd question: Where it says Recipe Volume, I put 5gal as that is what
> the recipe is based on. since there is no "Desired Kettle Volume" I put
> 5gal. Is this a reasonable guess?
Kettle volume needs to take into account losses from boiling. You want
to start the boil with at least 6 gal. I start with 7 or so.
> 3rd question: Under the heading: Batch Sparge Results" it says
> "GrainScale Up Factor 1.420 and next to it it says "Total Grain Required
> 17.2"
>
> I dont think I can up my grain bill and stay within the recipe
> guideline. What to do with this?
Nothing...this is a leftover from the "old days". You DO NOT need to
scale up your grain for batch sparging. You simply need to adjust the
recipe (ANY recipe) for the efficiency YOU get, no matter what type of
sparge you do. You won't knopw that til after you brew. 65% effieicny
is a good guess to start with until you know.
> 4th question: I will be checking for conversion using iodine (7%).
> Should I check before 45min as the recipe states " 45 min or untill complete
> conversion"?
Don't bother checkiong. It's nearly impossible NIT to get conversion
after 30 min. or so, so if you do a standard 1 hour mash, YOU WILL have
conversion. It's so easy to screw up the test and get bad results that
I recommend just skipping it.
> Calculations based upon the following article by Ken Schwartz:
> A Formulation Procedure for No-Sparge and Batch-Sparge Recipes
I helped (to a small extent) Ken develop those spreadsheets. That's
where I learned the grain scale up was bogus! Since you're already on
Tatsybrew, check out http://tastybrew.com/articles/dennyconn001 .
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 09:38:14
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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elstumpf@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Denny???? Where are you!!!!!!
Right here...
-------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 17:20:27
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
|
On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:32:48 GMT, <someone@microsoft.com > wrote:
> 1st question: Where it says "Wort lost to dead space" I put 1 gallon
> as I have made my 52qt ice cube, the one that is labled "Marine" and has no
> wheels and no ramp up to the drain, with a ssteel braid hose and I have made
> a ssteel spring and put it inside. The bulkhead I chose is actually a LP gas
> fitting that is ultra short and fits right in the recess in the drain. I
> foresee very little lost to dead space. Is this 1gal I put in there a
> reasonable guess?
I don't know. I'm not sure it really matters though.
> 2nd question: Where it says Recipe Volume, I put 5gal as that is what
> the recipe is based on. since there is no "Desired Kettle Volume" I put
> 5gal. Is this a reasonable guess?
Usually the desired kettle volume is a little bigger than your batch size
because you lose water during the boil. How much you lose will depend
on your specific setup, but I'd guess you'll want to start out with 6 to 6.5
gallons in the kettle in order to end up with 5 at the end of a typical
boil. Just take a guess the first couple times you do it and top off with
water after the boil if you ran a little short. Eventually you'll get an
idea of how much you need to start with on your system in order to hit
5 gallons in the fermenter.
> 3rd question: Under the heading: Batch Sparge Results" it says
> "GrainScale Up Factor 1.420 and next to it it says "Total Grain Required
> 17.2"
>
> I dont think I can up my grain bill and stay within the recipe
> guideline. What to do with this?
I suspect this is talking about increasing your amount of grain slightly
because some people get a slightly lower efficiency when batch sparging
compared to fly sparging. You basically up the grains to compensate. I
wouldn't worry about this the first time, because you really have no idea
what your efficiency is going to be. Similar to the desired kettle volume
thing, just go with it for your first couple beers and you'll get an idea
how close you are getting to your desired OG. If you keep undershooting
the OG, then you'll need to bump up the grains on your recipes in order
to have it come out right. All grain brewing, unlike extract, is more
about tweaking the amounts listed in a recipe to fit your own system more
so than using recipes exactly as they are printed.
> 4th question: I will be checking for conversion using iodine (7%).
> Should I check before 45min as the recipe states " 45 min or untill complete
> conversion"?
IMO, don't bother with an iodine test. Usually the only people you really
see doing this are beginners that just don't know any better. An iodine
test is pretty unreliable and is likely to just confuse you with false
readings. Just start your mash and let it go for at least 45 minutes. Unless
you really screwed something up then your conversion is going to be complete.
I wouldn't worry about it.
John.
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 16:27:19
From: Derric
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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> This will be the 1st use of my newly made mash tun. Well my 1st all
> grain actually.
...
You CAN do all those calculations for batch sparge if you want to. I
did when I started. However, you can easily just "wing" it with
batch sparging also. Here's what I do with excellent results (85%
efficiency usually):
1. Know how much you want to get into you boil kettle. I
usually shoot for 7 gallons. So heat ABOUT that much
water to boiling while your mash is working.
2. Mash as usual.
3. Sparge: 1st, just drain the mash. Measure what you drain
out (ie., either in the kettle or as you drain it).
I usually get about 2 gallons out of the tun when mashing
at 1.5 qts water per lb grain.
4. Since you got 2 gallons out, and you know you want 7 out
total just run two batchs of 2.5 gallons (the grains are
already wet so you can forget about that absorption
stuff).
This is a tad different from the way that web page/equations work,
because they don't drain the tun first. But, just knowing that you'll
get about 2 gallons out lets you estimate and do it their way too:
1. knowing you'll get about 2 gallons out, and you want 7 total,
you want 3.5 out of the first batch, so just add 1.5
gallons. Stir well, and drain. Now add 3.5 gallons,
stir, and drain. That should be about 7 gallons.
(2 + 1.5 + 3.5 = 7)
You can always adjust your last batch volume up or down
to get exactly what you want in your boil kettle.
Certainly don't sweat the batch sparging part, especially your first
time full grain. Just do it and make it come out with the right volume
in the boiler!
Derric
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 17:51:31
From: Artarius
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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forgot to add that I preheated the mash tun with 200deg water a few minutes
before hand.
"Derric" <derric1961@removethis.yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:12kuoj7n00adr64@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> This will be the 1st use of my newly made mash tun. Well my 1st all
>> grain actually.
> ...
>
> You CAN do all those calculations for batch sparge if you want to. I
> did when I started. However, you can easily just "wing" it with
> batch sparging also. Here's what I do with excellent results (85%
> efficiency usually):
> 1. Know how much you want to get into you boil kettle. I
> usually shoot for 7 gallons. So heat ABOUT that much
> water to boiling while your mash is working.
> 2. Mash as usual.
> 3. Sparge: 1st, just drain the mash. Measure what you drain
> out (ie., either in the kettle or as you drain it).
> I usually get about 2 gallons out of the tun when mashing
> at 1.5 qts water per lb grain.
> 4. Since you got 2 gallons out, and you know you want 7 out
> total just run two batchs of 2.5 gallons (the grains are
> already wet so you can forget about that absorption
> stuff).
> This is a tad different from the way that web page/equations work,
> because they don't drain the tun first. But, just knowing that you'll
> get about 2 gallons out lets you estimate and do it their way too:
> 1. knowing you'll get about 2 gallons out, and you want 7 total,
> you want 3.5 out of the first batch, so just add 1.5
> gallons. Stir well, and drain. Now add 3.5 gallons,
> stir, and drain. That should be about 7 gallons.
> (2 + 1.5 + 3.5 = 7)
> You can always adjust your last batch volume up or down
> to get exactly what you want in your boil kettle.
>
> Certainly don't sweat the batch sparging part, especially your first
> time full grain. Just do it and make it come out with the right volume
> in the boiler!
>
> Derric
>
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 17:50:09
From: Artarius
Subject: Re: Help me with batch sparge calculation please.
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Thanks for all the help guys. I figured out after the post that I just
needed to adjust for the boil pot loss.
I have a 10gal pot and lost 2gal in a 90min test run.
14.2 tot lbs grain
leave a half-gallon in the bottom of primary: 5.5
lose a quart of volume when to cool the wort from boiling to ambient 5.75.
lose 2 gallon to boil evap 7.75
1.775 lost to grain absorb. 9.5
9.5 gal total
4.75 strike
4.75 sparge
1hr mash and I was 1 point above my og target after the boil. As far as
efficiency, I think I will wait after a cupla batches just to get the
routine right, like hitting my target temp in the mash tun. I heated to
170deg and after dough in was at 145deg. So I let it sit for an hour just in
case.
"Derric" <derric1961@removethis.yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:12kuoj7n00adr64@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> This will be the 1st use of my newly made mash tun. Well my 1st all
>> grain actually.
> ...
>
> You CAN do all those calculations for batch sparge if you want to. I
> did when I started. However, you can easily just "wing" it with
> batch sparging also. Here's what I do with excellent results (85%
> efficiency usually):
> 1. Know how much you want to get into you boil kettle. I
> usually shoot for 7 gallons. So heat ABOUT that much
> water to boiling while your mash is working.
> 2. Mash as usual.
> 3. Sparge: 1st, just drain the mash. Measure what you drain
> out (ie., either in the kettle or as you drain it).
> I usually get about 2 gallons out of the tun when mashing
> at 1.5 qts water per lb grain.
> 4. Since you got 2 gallons out, and you know you want 7 out
> total just run two batchs of 2.5 gallons (the grains are
> already wet so you can forget about that absorption
> stuff).
> This is a tad different from the way that web page/equations work,
> because they don't drain the tun first. But, just knowing that you'll
> get about 2 gallons out lets you estimate and do it their way too:
> 1. knowing you'll get about 2 gallons out, and you want 7 total,
> you want 3.5 out of the first batch, so just add 1.5
> gallons. Stir well, and drain. Now add 3.5 gallons,
> stir, and drain. That should be about 7 gallons.
> (2 + 1.5 + 3.5 = 7)
> You can always adjust your last batch volume up or down
> to get exactly what you want in your boil kettle.
>
> Certainly don't sweat the batch sparging part, especially your first
> time full grain. Just do it and make it come out with the right volume
> in the boiler!
>
> Derric
>
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