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Date: 12 Jul 2006 07:06:05
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Harsh stout and porter
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Recently I've made two dark beers (a dry stout and a porter) that
both came out overly harsh and bitter. I wouldn't describe it as
astringency, however. It is more of a flavor defect than a puckering
sensation, if that makes sense. I've been using Ray Daniel's book
to formulate basic recipes. The stout grain bill was:
6.5# Maris Otter
1.5# Flaked Barley
1# Roasted Barley.
For the porter:
10.5# Maris Otter
1# Crystal 60
1# Chocolate
1# Flaked Oats
Both are for 6 gallon batches, I batch sparge and live in Austin,
Texas. My water profile is here:
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/downloads/wqs_1q05.pdf
I added 5gr of calcium carbonate to the mash and both times I ended up
a ph of 5.1 or so, as near as I can tell from the test strips. I also
mashed around 155 F.
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to avoid this problem? My mash
ph could be a bit higher, would that have an effect? Would a reduction
of dark grains to .75# in a six gallon batch make a significant
difference? I'm afraid if I go much lower I'll begin to have color
issues. What about adding the dark grains later in the mash? Or cold
steeping?
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
John
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:34:39
From: CarlJF
Subject: Re: Harsh stout and porter
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Which hops have you used ?
Some hops can give what some peoples describe as a harsh bitterness.
Chinook comes in my mind...
Where the hops relatively fresh ? I've made the mistake one time of
using less than fresh hops and the beer had very unpleaseant and
strange off flavors to the point of putting the whole batch down the
drain.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:30:19
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Harsh stout and porter
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sanchopanza wrote:
> That was the mash ph.
>
> The porter is still a little "green", but the harshness is there. It is
> not as strong as the stout was, however. It may improve some with age,
> but my stout never did. Since it wasn't very good it took me several
> months to drink so I was able to sample it over a fairly long period of
> time.
>
> I've searched the group some, but I will look for Dan's posts on the
> subject.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> > On 12 Jul 2006 07:06:05 -0700, <john.lemaux@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Recently I've made two dark beers (a dry stout and a porter) that
> > > both came out overly harsh and bitter. I wouldn't describe it as
> > > astringency, however. It is more of a flavor defect than a puckering
> > > sensation, if that makes sense. I've been using Ray Daniel's book
> > > to formulate basic recipes. The stout grain bill was:
> > > 6.5# Maris Otter
> > > 1.5# Flaked Barley
> > > 1# Roasted Barley.
> > >
> > > For the porter:
> > > 10.5# Maris Otter
> > > 1# Crystal 60
> > > 1# Chocolate
> > > 1# Flaked Oats
> >
> > IMO, seems odd that you would get harshness from the porter. Chocolate
> > is usually a lot smoother than roasted barley or black patent. Maybe
> > it's a water thing... see below.
> >
> > > I added 5gr of calcium carbonate to the mash and both times I ended up
> > > a ph of 5.1 or so, as near as I can tell from the test strips. I also
> > > mashed around 155 F.
> >
> > Was 5.1 the pH of the water or of the mash?
> >
> > > What about adding the dark grains later in the mash? Or cold
> > > steeping?
> >
> > I know that Dan Listermann has talked about doing this before. IIRC, due
> > to something in his water chemistry he always gets a harshness using
> > dark grains if he adds them during the beginning of the mash. In most
> > cases, technically you only really need to steep the dark grains, they don't
> > have to be in there for the entire mash. I believe what Dan does is to
> > mash without them, and then add the dark grains before he begins the
> > sparge.
> >
> > If he's around maybe he'll give more details on what he does. Otherwise
> > you can probably check out groups.google.com and find some old posts
> > from him talking about it.
> >
> >
> > John.
I've noticed that when brewing with dark grains I've had a harsh burnt
flavor that improved over just a few weeks of aging. Maybe the porter
will fall into this category.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:23:26
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Re: Harsh stout and porter
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That was the mash ph.
The porter is still a little "green", but the harshness is there. It is
not as strong as the stout was, however. It may improve some with age,
but my stout never did. Since it wasn't very good it took me several
months to drink so I was able to sample it over a fairly long period of
time.
I've searched the group some, but I will look for Dan's posts on the
subject.
Thanks,
John
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 07:06:05 -0700, <john.lemaux@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Recently I've made two dark beers (a dry stout and a porter) that
> > both came out overly harsh and bitter. I wouldn't describe it as
> > astringency, however. It is more of a flavor defect than a puckering
> > sensation, if that makes sense. I've been using Ray Daniel's book
> > to formulate basic recipes. The stout grain bill was:
> > 6.5# Maris Otter
> > 1.5# Flaked Barley
> > 1# Roasted Barley.
> >
> > For the porter:
> > 10.5# Maris Otter
> > 1# Crystal 60
> > 1# Chocolate
> > 1# Flaked Oats
>
> IMO, seems odd that you would get harshness from the porter. Chocolate
> is usually a lot smoother than roasted barley or black patent. Maybe
> it's a water thing... see below.
>
> > I added 5gr of calcium carbonate to the mash and both times I ended up
> > a ph of 5.1 or so, as near as I can tell from the test strips. I also
> > mashed around 155 F.
>
> Was 5.1 the pH of the water or of the mash?
>
> > What about adding the dark grains later in the mash? Or cold
> > steeping?
>
> I know that Dan Listermann has talked about doing this before. IIRC, due
> to something in his water chemistry he always gets a harshness using
> dark grains if he adds them during the beginning of the mash. In most
> cases, technically you only really need to steep the dark grains, they don't
> have to be in there for the entire mash. I believe what Dan does is to
> mash without them, and then add the dark grains before he begins the
> sparge.
>
> If he's around maybe he'll give more details on what he does. Otherwise
> you can probably check out groups.google.com and find some old posts
> from him talking about it.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:06:56
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Harsh stout and porter
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On 12 Jul 2006 07:06:05 -0700, <john.lemaux@gmail.com > wrote:
> Recently I've made two dark beers (a dry stout and a porter) that
> both came out overly harsh and bitter. I wouldn't describe it as
> astringency, however. It is more of a flavor defect than a puckering
> sensation, if that makes sense. I've been using Ray Daniel's book
> to formulate basic recipes. The stout grain bill was:
> 6.5# Maris Otter
> 1.5# Flaked Barley
> 1# Roasted Barley.
>
> For the porter:
> 10.5# Maris Otter
> 1# Crystal 60
> 1# Chocolate
> 1# Flaked Oats
IMO, seems odd that you would get harshness from the porter. Chocolate
is usually a lot smoother than roasted barley or black patent. Maybe
it's a water thing... see below.
> I added 5gr of calcium carbonate to the mash and both times I ended up
> a ph of 5.1 or so, as near as I can tell from the test strips. I also
> mashed around 155 F.
Was 5.1 the pH of the water or of the mash?
> What about adding the dark grains later in the mash? Or cold
> steeping?
I know that Dan Listermann has talked about doing this before. IIRC, due
to something in his water chemistry he always gets a harshness using
dark grains if he adds them during the beginning of the mash. In most
cases, technically you only really need to steep the dark grains, they don't
have to be in there for the entire mash. I believe what Dan does is to
mash without them, and then add the dark grains before he begins the
sparge.
If he's around maybe he'll give more details on what he does. Otherwise
you can probably check out groups.google.com and find some old posts
from him talking about it.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 14:09:10
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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One thing I don't do is treat my sparge water. Since I batch sparge I
didn't think it would be crucial. I just add the sparge water, stir
then drain. With dark grains I am careful to not use water that is too
hot. The way I figure is the there isn't much time for tannin
extraction using this method. Maybe I'm wrong?
John
sanchopanza wrote:
> Recently I've made two dark beers (a dry stout and a porter) that
> both came out overly harsh and bitter. I wouldn't describe it as
> astringency, however. It is more of a flavor defect than a puckering
> sensation, if that makes sense. I've been using Ray Daniel's book
> to formulate basic recipes. The stout grain bill was:
> 6.5# Maris Otter
> 1.5# Flaked Barley
> 1# Roasted Barley.
>
> For the porter:
> 10.5# Maris Otter
> 1# Crystal 60
> 1# Chocolate
> 1# Flaked Oats
>
> Both are for 6 gallon batches, I batch sparge and live in Austin,
> Texas. My water profile is here:
> http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/downloads/wqs_1q05.pdf
>
> I added 5gr of calcium carbonate to the mash and both times I ended up
> a ph of 5.1 or so, as near as I can tell from the test strips. I also
> mashed around 155 F.
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions on how to avoid this problem? My mash
> ph could be a bit higher, would that have an effect? Would a reduction
> of dark grains to .75# in a six gallon batch make a significant
> difference? I'm afraid if I go much lower I'll begin to have color
> issues. What about adding the dark grains later in the mash? Or cold
> steeping?
>
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> John
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 21:12:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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On 12 Jul 2006 14:09:10 -0700, <john.lemaux@gmail.com > wrote:
> One thing I don't do is treat my sparge water. Since I batch sparge I
> didn't think it would be crucial. I just add the sparge water, stir
> then drain. With dark grains I am careful to not use water that is too
> hot. The way I figure is the there isn't much time for tannin
> extraction using this method. Maybe I'm wrong?
I could be wrong, but I don't think it would be a sparge issue. The
typical problem with sparges is that the pH will start to get too high
late in the process.
Dark grains, on the other hand, are more acidic than other grains. So,
a mash using dark grains should be more resistant to sparge pH problems,
at least in theory.
John.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 13:49:44
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Re: Harsh stout and porter
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I used Northern Brewer and Williamete--neither beer was aggresively
hopped, either.
John
CarlJF wrote:
> Which hops have you used ?
>
> Some hops can give what some peoples describe as a harsh bitterness.
> Chinook comes in my mind...
>
> Where the hops relatively fresh ? I've made the mistake one time of
> using less than fresh hops and the beer had very unpleaseant and
> strange off flavors to the point of putting the whole batch down the
> drain.
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 09:18:06
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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That makes sense, and after searching the archives it doesn't seem
likely that batch sparging would be causing any issues. I'm beginning
to think that the mash is where I should focus. Next time I'll try to
get my mash ph up a bit. Do you guys know of any problems that could
arise by adding too much calcium carbonate? How much would too much be?
Is there a way to compute calcium carbonate additions to bump up the ph
rather than adding a little bit at a time and taking measurements?
If that doesn't work I'll think about adding the dark grains at the
end of the mash.
Thanks,
John
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 14:09:10 -0700, <john.lemaux@gmail.com> wrote:
> > One thing I don't do is treat my sparge water. Since I batch sparge I
> > didn't think it would be crucial. I just add the sparge water, stir
> > then drain. With dark grains I am careful to not use water that is too
> > hot. The way I figure is the there isn't much time for tannin
> > extraction using this method. Maybe I'm wrong?
>
> I could be wrong, but I don't think it would be a sparge issue. The
> typical problem with sparges is that the pH will start to get too high
> late in the process.
>
> Dark grains, on the other hand, are more acidic than other grains. So,
> a mash using dark grains should be more resistant to sparge pH problems,
> at least in theory.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:42:56
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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sanchopanza wrote:
> That makes sense, and after searching the archives it doesn't seem
> likely that batch sparging would be causing any issues. I'm beginning
> to think that the mash is where I should focus. Next time I'll try to
> get my mash ph up a bit. Do you guys know of any problems that could
> arise by adding too much calcium carbonate? How much would too much be?
> Is there a way to compute calcium carbonate additions to bump up the ph
> rather than adding a little bit at a time and taking measurements?
I had a similar problem not too long ago, but never really knew the cause of
it. About the same time, I concluded my well water (of which I do not have
an analysis) was the cause of several problems. (I concluded it was high
in sulfites.) I now start with distilled water and work from there.
Anyway, in researching for the problem of what seemed to me to be excessive
hop utilization, I stumbed across this:
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.2/miller.html
It has to do with hop utilization decreasing as the pH in the kettle
decreases. From what I've read in this thread, I cannot see how this could
be a factor, but you might want to check the pH of your wort next time just
to see if the wort pH is higher than you expect.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 15:06:58
From: GeoffT
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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A teaspoon or two of chalk (CaCO3) should sort you out.
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 13:10:29
From: sanchopanza
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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Larry, I don't think that is what is going on in my case, but it was
still a good read.
After doing more research I have learned that pH measurements conducted
at room temperature are not the same as what they would be at mash
temps. I measured a pH of 5.1 at room temperature. According to John
Palmer's book the pH at actual mash temps is .35 LOWER. That means my
mash pH was around 4.75. That would definitely explain the acrid
flavors I am noticing.
John
Larry Bristol wrote:
> sanchopanza wrote:
>
> > That makes sense, and after searching the archives it doesn't seem
> > likely that batch sparging would be causing any issues. I'm beginning
> > to think that the mash is where I should focus. Next time I'll try to
> > get my mash ph up a bit. Do you guys know of any problems that could
> > arise by adding too much calcium carbonate? How much would too much be?
> > Is there a way to compute calcium carbonate additions to bump up the ph
> > rather than adding a little bit at a time and taking measurements?
>
> I had a similar problem not too long ago, but never really knew the cause of
> it. About the same time, I concluded my well water (of which I do not have
> an analysis) was the cause of several problems. (I concluded it was high
> in sulfites.) I now start with distilled water and work from there.
>
> Anyway, in researching for the problem of what seemed to me to be excessive
> hop utilization, I stumbed across this:
> http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.2/miller.html
> It has to do with hop utilization decreasing as the pH in the kettle
> decreases. From what I've read in this thread, I cannot see how this could
> be a factor, but you might want to check the pH of your wort next time just
> to see if the wort pH is higher than you expect.
>
> --
> Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
> http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 15 Jul 2006 07:34:40
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Batch Spare/Harsh stout and porter?
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sanchopanza wrote:
> After doing more research I have learned that pH measurements conducted
> at room temperature are not the same as what they would be at mash
> temps. I measured a pH of 5.1 at room temperature. According to John
> Palmer's book the pH at actual mash temps is .35 LOWER. That means my
> mash pH was around 4.75. That would definitely explain the acrid
> flavors I am noticing.
That's certainly a plausible explanation.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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