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Date: 24 Jun 2006 17:08:57
From: Tim Carey
Subject: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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I can't drink "normal" beer anymore. I'ver read about using white sorghum
along with rice extract. Using the sorghum in grain form sounds pretty
complicated to a partial grain brewer like myself.
I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the cane not the
grain. There are clearly fermentables present. Does anybody hazard to
guess what I might come up with vs. using the grain portion.
Thanks
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 21:03:49
From: Eric Scantlebury
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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I'm just starting out in this hobby (having only done one Mr Beer recipe -
which, after further review I guess really doesn't even "count" LOL!).
However, in my research I ran across this web site about brewing gluton
free:
http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/brewerytap/555/gfbeer/gfbeer.htm#
There are recipies listed there as well.
HTH somewhat.
Eric
"Tim Carey" <tcarey@new.rr.com > wrote in message
news:Jkeng.195$Rl3.89@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>I can't drink "normal" beer anymore. I'ver read about using white sorghum
>along with rice extract. Using the sorghum in grain form sounds pretty
>complicated to a partial grain brewer like myself.
>
> I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the cane not the
> grain. There are clearly fermentables present. Does anybody hazard to
> guess what I might come up with vs. using the grain portion.
>
> Thanks
>
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 18:58:52
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Tim Carey <tcarey@new.rr.com > wrote:
> I can't drink "normal" beer anymore. I'ver read about using
> white sorghum along with rice extract. Using the sorghum in
> grain form sounds pretty complicated to a partial grain brewer
> like myself.
Not really, you just need a separate mill for the sorghum grain
Getting malted sorghum is not easy so you may have to malt it
yourself. I thought you add rice hulls when mashing grain surghum.
> I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the
> cane not the grain. There are clearly fermentables present.
> Does anybody hazard to guess what I might come up with vs.
> using the grain portion.
I have done that. It can be compared to fermenting molasses.
My fermented Molasses went to feed rats in the county sewer
system. My fermented sweet sorghum syrup went form good to
bad to terrible as it became more pungent as the hydrometer
readings decreased.
If you live near Baltimore, I have close to a half-gallon of
sweet sorghum syrup left just in case you really need to try
it yourself.
Dick
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 15:04:08
From: Robert Hinterding
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Tim Carey wrote:
> I can't drink "normal" beer anymore. I'ver read about using white sorghum
> along with rice extract. Using the sorghum in grain form sounds pretty
> complicated to a partial grain brewer like myself.
There are a number of options to brewing gluten free beer.
Using grain sorghum will be complex to start with, but you will get the
best result. And lets face it you don't have a lot of choices :-).
Your main problems are malting the sorghum yourself, as you can't buy
sorghum malt in the USA at present, and having to do decion mashes.
You can find instructions at: http://www.sillyyak.com.au/gfb
>
> I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the cane not the
> grain. There are clearly fermentables present. Does anybody hazard to
> guess what I might come up with vs. using the grain portion.
Sorghum syrup is made from the stalks, like sugar from sugar cane. If
you use this you will not need rice hulls, but I suspect you may not get
a lot of taste either. I have not heard of anyone using it. I expect
the result would be like trying to make beer from only sugar or corn syrup.
The other approach, would be to get your major fermentables from corn,
rice or sorghum syrup and then use something like roasted buchwheat
(kasha) to add flavour. Your problem here is going to be getting access
to the needed enzymes to break down the cell walls, protein and starches
in the buckwheat. This approach is used by some of the commercial
gluten free beer brewers.
Cheers
Robert
>
> Thanks
>
>
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 15:51:06
From: Derric
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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>> I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the cane not the
>> grain. There are clearly fermentables present. Does anybody hazard to
>> guess what I might come up with vs. using the grain portion.
>
> Sorghum syrup is made from the stalks, like sugar from sugar cane.
It is true that the syrup comes from stalks and not the seeds, but the
two sorghum plants are quite different ... there is "grain sorghum"
(for seeds) and "sweet sorghum" (for syrup)... they are different,
but I don't know how closely, they are related. For example, the grain
sorghum is short and small, about waist high, and the sweet sorghum can
be very tall ... say, 8 feet.
Similar to another post you got earlier, I've heard that sorghum syrup
gets extremely bitter/foul once all the sweetness ferments away. (But
the pure stuff sure is good on biscuits!)
Note... SUGAR CANE SYRUP is from yet another completely different
plant and I've never heard of fermentation results of it - it might not
be so bad when fermented, as I *think* I've read of it being done in
Central/South America.
Re: gluten free brewing, also check out:
http://www.glutenfreebrewer.com/default.htm
http://www.bardsbeer.com/
http://www.glutenfreebrewer.com/malting_equipment.htm
Derric
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 14:56:28
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 17:08:57 GMT, <tcarey@new.rr.com > wrote:
> I can't drink "normal" beer anymore. I'ver read about using white sorghum
> along with rice extract. Using the sorghum in grain form sounds pretty
> complicated to a partial grain brewer like myself.
>
> I found a supply of 100% sorghum syrup. It is made from the cane not the
> grain. There are clearly fermentables present. Does anybody hazard to
> guess what I might come up with vs. using the grain portion.
I can't help with your question, but we did used to have a fairly regular
member of this group who was in the same situation. There were a bunch
of posts made about it, and I also believe they either run or were
involved with a website project that was specifically about gluten
free brewing. IMO, check out the groups archives at groups.google.com
and search for "gluten". You'll probably run across a lot of information
and pointers to other sites.
John.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 19:38:51
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Tim Carey wrote:
> "Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate your willingness to help. I
> am going to figure this thing out. I think I'll draft an all grain brewer
> to help me to it.
>
> Cider will be fun to make, but man I gotta have beer!
Briess has a new gluten-free syrup like that is made with separate
equipment.
3 flavors {Brown Rice, White Sorgum, Tapioca} and 2 levels of
non-fermentables for each.
http://www.briess.com/brew/products.shtml#syrups
Between these syrups and the DCL/Fermentis dry yeasts there are a great
variety of beer styles to attempt.
For coloring grains you could malt and roast some of your own
buschwheat or something..
I was able to order a 50-pound pail of this stuff from a local brewery
for a gluten-intolerant friend, the brewery piggybacked it on thier own
order.
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 18:03:55
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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neal <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
> Briess has a new gluten-free syrup like that is made with
> separate equipment.
>
> 3 flavors {Brown Rice, White Sorgum, Tapioca} and 2 levels of
> non-fermentables for each.
>
> http://www.briess.com/brew/products.shtml#syrups
>
> Between these syrups and the DCL/Fermentis dry yeasts there
> are a great variety of beer styles to attempt.
>
> For coloring grains you could malt and roast some of your own
> buckwheat or something..
>
> I was able to order a 50-pound pail of this stuff from a local
> brewery for a gluten-intolerant friend, the brewery piggybacked
> it on their own order.
Neal, Thank you for this information. Although I knew it already,
I did not understand it. :)
Which syrup did you purchase? What did 5 gallons cost you?
Dick
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 00:35:13
From: Tim Carey
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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"Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate your willingness to help. I
am going to figure this thing out. I think I'll draft an all grain brewer
to help me to it.
Cider will be fun to make, but man I gotta have beer!
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Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:12:53
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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> Neal, Thank you for this information. Although I knew it already,
> I did not understand it. :)
>
> Which syrup did you purchase? What did 5 gallons cost you?
>
Note the above should have read 'buckwheat' ;-) And note also that
Fermentis claims to propagate their yeast in gluten-free wort.. you
might want to confirm this.
I think the cost to the brewery is less than $1 a pound, so it would
depend on whatever markup they want to charge. Even if they double it,
it's still a good deal per pound given the alternatives (none really).
Good luck.
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 05:40:07
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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>> Neal, Thank you for this information. Although I knew it already,
>> I did not understand it. :)
>>
>> Which syrup did you purchase? What did 5 gallons cost you?
> Note the above should have read 'buckwheat' ;-)
How did 'buckwheat' get into this thread? There is no mention
of 'buckwheat' on www.briess.com/brew/products.shtml#syrups
Briess carries 45 DE High Maltose and 60 DE pails (5 gallons)
of Brown Rice Syrup, White Sorghum Syrup, and Tapioca Syrup.
> And note also that Fermentis claims to propagate their yeast
> in gluten-free wort.. you might want to confirm this.
Do you have a cite for this?
> I think the cost to the brewery is less than $1 a pound, so
> it would depend on whatever markup they want to charge.
> Even if they double it, it's still a good deal per pound
> given the alternatives (none really).
Under $1 per pound is a very good deal. But note that the
cost of shipping 60 lbs of anything can be a killer.
Dick
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 01:06:21
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Robert Hinterding <rhh@sillyyak.com.au > wrote:
>> neal wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>> The problem is very simple. Malted sorghum is available in
>> OZ, but difficult to acquire in the States unless you malt it
>> yourself. I have consider malting it, but I am running out
>> of space. A friend stopped over the other day to pick up
>> a Lawnmower Ale I made for him. He looked around and said
>> "You have everything down here except a moonshine still."
> No need to malt it yourself! Just use the White Sorgum extract from
> Briess. My buddy malted his own Buckwheat. Giant pain in the butt.
> You are right, malting sorghum is a pain. Sorghum IS malted
> in the USA as Bards use it in their beer, there is also someone
> else brewing with sorghum, so you might be able to track it down.
Bard's is using a malt house in Canada which only sels to Bard.
> Seeing that you have White sorghum extract available, that would
> seem the best way to go.
That is an option I will explore. How many lbs of Sorghum Syrup
should be substituted per lb of Malted Sorghum that would have
mashed?
> Beer made with just sorghum is more like a wheat beer in flavour,
> so you would want to use some their grain with it to give it a
> different taste. Millet or buckwheat would be good adjuncts but
> the problem is if you are using these with the sorghum syrup is
> that you have no active enzymes to contvert the starches to sugars
> - back to square one.
How about adding alpha amylase enzyme?
> Millet and sorghum have higher gelatinisation temperature than
> barley so they would need to be cooked first.
Is there a grain that can be steeped for flavoring?
I purchased two 5lb containers of Buckwheat honey a few years
ago. The taste is too sharp for my Mead palate. Could it be
used in a extract beer with Sorghum Syrup? Any idea of the
ratio to be used?
Dick
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 16:08:57
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Dick Adams wrote:
> The problem is very simple. Malted sorghum is available in
> OZ, but difficult to acquire in the States unless you malt it
> yourself. I have consider malting it, but I am running out
> of space. A friend stopped over the other day to pick up
> a Lawnmower Ale I made for him. He looked around and said
> "You have everything down here except a moonshine still."
>
> Dick
No need to malt it yourself! Just use the White Sorgum extract from
Briess. My buddy malted his own Buckwheat. Giant pain in the butt.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 10:08:40
From: Robert Hinterding
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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neal wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>>The problem is very simple. Malted sorghum is available in
>>OZ, but difficult to acquire in the States unless you malt it
>>yourself. I have consider malting it, but I am running out
>>of space. A friend stopped over the other day to pick up
>>a Lawnmower Ale I made for him. He looked around and said
>>"You have everything down here except a moonshine still."
>>
>>Dick
> No need to malt it yourself! Just use the White Sorgum extract from
> Briess. My buddy malted his own Buckwheat. Giant pain in the butt.
>
You are right, malting sorghum is a pain. Sorghum IS malted in the USA
as Bards use it in their beer, there is alos someone else brewing with
sorghum, so you might be able to track it down.
Seeing that you have White sorghum extract available, that would seem
the best way to go. Beer made with just sorghum is more like a wheat
beer in flavour, so you would want to use some ther grain with it to
give it a different taste. Millet or buckwheat would be good adjuncts
but the problem is if you are using these with the sorghum syrup is that
you have no active enzymes to contvert the starches to sugars - back
to square one.
Millet and sorghum have higher gelatinisation temperature than barley so
they would need to be cooked first.
Sorghum makes a really good wit beer.
Cheers
Robert
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 11:03:09
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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> > And note also that Fermentis claims to propagate their yeast
> > in gluten-free wort.. you might want to confirm this.
>
> Do you have a cite for this?
Here's some guy in Australia that organized a gluten-free beer contest
and specified to use only Fermentis or Danstar yeast:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t4257.html
I couldn't find anything from Fermentis' site.. but I've read elsewhere
that Fermentis is supposedly grown in gluten free media..
> > I think the cost to the brewery is less than $1 a pound, so
> > it would depend on whatever markup they want to charge.
> > Even if they double it, it's still a good deal per pound
> > given the alternatives (none really).
>
> Under $1 per pound is a very good deal. But note that the
> cost of shipping 60 lbs of anything can be a killer.
True, but hopefully a local brewer will piggyback it on his order and
you'll be getting freight-rates instead of FedEx/UPS rates..
Thanks
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 22:51:22
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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The problem is very simple. Malted sorghum is available in
OZ, but difficult to acquire in the States unless you malt it
yourself. I have consider malting it, but I am running out
of space. A friend stopped over the other day to pick up
a Lawnmower Ale I made for him. He looked around and said
"You have everything down here except a moonshine still."
Dick
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 07:30:48
From: Robert Hinterding
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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neal wrote:
>>>And note also that Fermentis claims to propagate their yeast
>>>in gluten-free wort.. you might want to confirm this.
>>
>
> Here's some guy in Australia that organized a gluten-free beer contest
> and specified to use only Fermentis or Danstar yeast:
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t4257.html
> I couldn't find anything from Fermentis' site.. but I've read elsewhere
> that Fermentis is supposedly grown in gluten free media..
Hi neal,
That guy is me, and I did get confirmation that both Fermentis and
Danstar yeasts are grown on gluten free media.
Note that you will not get the same flavour profile with these yeasts
when you brew with sorghum. We now use the Fermentis yeasts to
commercially brew gluten free beer.
Robert
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 01:21:55
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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Molasses, Brown sugar and Belgian Candy sugar! I forgot about those!
They can add both color and body. Check out the various Belgian Beer
references for info on using sugars.
Hell you've got nearly as many options as the rest of us. In some ways
gluten-free brewing and embracing all of the different non-barley
brewing ingredients will make you likely more creative than the rest of
us.
Good Luck.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 01:13:36
From: neal
Subject: Re: Gluten free beer and sorghum question
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> > Beer made with just sorghum is more like a wheat beer in flavour,
> > so you would want to use some their grain with it to give it a
> > different taste.
Note that USA labeling laws require that maltodextrin made with wheat
be marked as such. Otherwise you can assume that maltodextrin is made
from corn, potato or rice.
My gluten-intolerant buddy used maltodextrin power to add quite a bit
of body to his beer.
> Millet or buckwheat would be good adjuncts but
> > the problem is if you are using these with the sorghum syrup is
> > that you have no active enzymes to contvert the starches to sugars
> > - back to square one.
You can also malt corn yourself..
> How about adding alpha amylase enzyme?
This sounds worth a try. Remember that you still want to actually
malt some buckwheat yourself. The germination and roasting process is
chemically complex and simply using unmalted buckwheat + alpha amylase
probably won't result in the taste you want.
However if you are wanting some roasty flavors and color to add to a
base or one of the BriessSweet extracts here are some ideas:
* Use either malted or unmalted buckwheat or Millet
- Roast it at various known kilning temps, see link below.
- Smoke it! I REALLY recommend buying the 'Smoked Beers' book. It
gives complete instructions on smoking malt. This would be a GREAT way
to add some interesting flavor.
Obviously you'll get different results with unmalted grain, however
there are popular coloring malts for beer that use unmalted grain.
Kilning temps
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/Sanders/roasting.shtml
* Use Oak chips, Oak cubes, Oak staves, liquid oak essence. Nothern
Brewer has a great selection of Oak stuff (including essense - not on
the website - call them).
I currently have a 'Kellerbier' going and used both smoked malt and oak
chips to attempt to give it some interesting secondary flavors:
http://www.brewcommune.com/phpBB/weblog_entry.php?e=142
Long/Slow Boils:
* Long & Slow boils of extract are known to darken beer wort via
various chemical reactions.
* In the 'Belgian Ale' book the author mentions that doing an overnight
simmer of his wort helped it develop a great red color and deep malty
flavor.
Other Yeast ideas:
* Checkout 'Brewferm Blanche', it's a newer dried Belgian Wit Yeast.
You can find it at Williams brewing and supposedly Nothern Brewer has
it now.
* Note that Fermentis T58 is supposed to be faily estery.
* Danstar Winsor is supposed to be estery.
* This is good, I think that one thing you want is more esters in a
gluten-free beer, gives it an Ale flavor.
* Try different temps, in general higher temps result in more esters.
The 'Nottingham' yeast has a very wide temp range, 57F to 70F.... but
it won't taste the same if you ferment two beers with the same yeast at
10F apart!
* There are plenty of dry yeasts to use, but I think the following is a
safe bet:
1) Get some interesting White Labs liquid Ale yeast (German Hefe)
2) Make up a quart of White Sorgum wort and cool to 65-70-F
3) Add yeast nutrient + 2nd quart of 65F water, and aeriate.
4) Poor a small amount of the dense liquid yeast into the wort from
the bottom, toss the rest.
5) Grow this for 2-3 days
6) Goto step #2 - do this 3-4 times
Seems to me that you will seriously dilute any initial gluten from the
very small sample you took from the yeast-vial to be nearly
undetectable after 4 cycles! Make sure everything is well sterilized
and sanitary.
Hops:
I bet if you brewed a White Sorgum Extract based beer with decent
amount of maltodextrin powder, a lager yeast and lots of fresh Saaz
hops (to about 50 IBU) you'll get a pretty decent Pilsner imitation all
things considered!
I bet that if you used a hefty amount of maltodextrin you WILL get a
decent malt flavor found in many good lagers and ales.
Same goes for the IPAs and hoppy Pale Ales and Altbiers.. a major
component of their flavor are specific types of hops. Research the
differences and try them. Use late additions for plenty of flavor and
aroma.
If in doubt, go overboard a bit on the hops... it's a proven method for
American craft brewers.
Spices:
Belgian Wits are spiced with coriander and orange peel. I bet you can
make a great wit-imitation with White Sorgum, the Brewferm Blanche (or
Winsor or T-58), some maltodextrin, appropriate hops + spices, and a
bit of gluten-free flour added for some cloudiness.
Water:
Note that hard water can really bring out the spicyness of hops in
interesting ways. The 'Dortmund' style of beer is brewed with very
hard water which affects both the mashing process and accentuates the
hop flavors.
* Try using one of the 'instant brewing water' additives (various kinds
of salt) for either Dortmund or Burton-on-Trent hard water.
* Dilute your tap water with 50-70% distilled to get Pilsen type very
soft water.
Fruit:
Why not try it? The Belgians use cherries (and a very estery yeast!)
for Framboise. I have seen Peach homebrew recipies. The 'Oregon Fruit
Purees' has 6 different varieties!
I think the options now for gluten free homebrew are pretty amazing,
you could spend a decade trying out all of the variations. 9+ dried
yeasts, tons of different hops, 6 different BriessSweet extracts,
honey, fruit extract, oak products, smoking and/or roasting your own
malts, hard vs soft water, spices and maltodextrin
Neal
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