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Main
Date: 02 Dec 2006 12:24:16
From:
Subject: Get it Right AG - misc details
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I'm getting ready to do my 3rd AG after about a year away.
Both of the others and especially the last were ok. My wife
didn't quite like any of them due to some small offbeat taste.
Nothing too serious so I'll keep her but I'm looking to get
a real basic recipe down pat - 2row, crystal, batch sparge,
Danstar Nottingham. I was doing 2row and Munich trying
to aim for an English mild but I think the crystal would be
more appropriate for a standard recipe. I'm also doing about
a ~2 gal boil aiming for a 3 gal recipe, mashing at 155F and
then using a preset oven to hold temp.
There are a couple of areas where I've decided to do some
research to decide if they're important. I'm looking for
comments on the following, in no real order:
1. Cooling in the Sink With Ice - generally ok.
2. Hot Break Removal - not a big issue, alot of thoughts
either way.
3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
shortly after fermentation begins.
4. Cold Fermentation - doesn't hurt to keep it under 70F.
5. Hot Side Aeration - probably not a problem if I don't get
stupid about splashing. Batch Sparging now instead of
rinsing so largely not an issue.
6. Protein Rest - not a big deal with ales but go for it
if you want to.
7. Mash Out - not an issue if batch sparging, keep temp
of water under 170 F.
8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
9. Irish Moss for clearing, no issues but rehydrate for
12 hrs prior.
10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
item so why not.
All the other standard practices like being careful about
oxidation and rehydrating the yeast but is there anything
I've missed?
Don
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 22:46:09
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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dshesnicky@yahoo.com <dshesnicky@yahoo.com >:
>I'm getting ready to do my 3rd AG after about a year away.
>Both of the others and especially the last were ok. My wife
>didn't quite like any of them due to some small offbeat taste.
>Nothing too serious so I'll keep her but I'm looking to get
>a real basic recipe down pat - 2row, crystal, batch sparge,
>Danstar Nottingham. I was doing 2row and Munich trying
>to aim for an English mild but I think the crystal would be
>more appropriate for a standard recipe. I'm also doing about
>a ~2 gal boil aiming for a 3 gal recipe, mashing at 155F and
>then using a preset oven to hold temp.
>There are a couple of areas where I've decided to do some
>research to decide if they're important. I'm looking for
>comments on the following, in no real order:
>1. Cooling in the Sink With Ice - generally ok.
>2. Hot Break Removal - not a big issue, alot of thoughts
>either way.
>3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
>shortly after fermentation begins.
>4. Cold Fermentation - doesn't hurt to keep it under 70F.
>5. Hot Side Aeration - probably not a problem if I don't get
>stupid about splashing. Batch Sparging now instead of
>rinsing so largely not an issue.
>6. Protein Rest - not a big deal with ales but go for it
>if you want to.
>7. Mash Out - not an issue if batch sparging, keep temp
>of water under 170 F.
>8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
>but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
>9. Irish Moss for clearing, no issues but rehydrate for
>12 hrs prior.
>10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
>item so why not.
Some thoughts, per item #:
1. Ice bath should work well for a small batch, even better if
you stir both the wort and the ice water. If the water get warm,
replenish as needed.
6. Eliminate protein rest from the vocabulary, until, if and
when you become a lager brewer. Then only maybe.
9. Same for Irish Moss, unless you are a stickler for clarity.
I haven't used it yet, and most of my brews clear... eventually.
Some more than others. But then, if they don't, I don't care too
much. YMMV.
10. I haven't found pH strips that work well yet. If you have a
water chemistry report, you should be able to predict whether or
not you'll need to adjust minerals, which ones, and how much.
I'd adjust minerals only based upon a known deficiency or need.
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 19:28:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:46:09 GMT, <scottsellers@mindspring.com > wrote:
> 6. Eliminate protein rest from the vocabulary, until, if and
> when you become a lager brewer. Then only maybe.
I don't think it's a lager vs ale thing. IMO, it has to do with what
ingredients you are using. If you're using adjuncts with a high protein
content, then you may want to do one. Otherwise, don't.
John.
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 15:04:53
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
|
<dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165091056.945743.169380@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> I'm getting ready to do my 3rd AG after about a year away.
> Both of the others and especially the last were ok. My wife
> didn't quite like any of them due to some small offbeat taste.
> Nothing too serious so I'll keep her but I'm looking to get
> a real basic recipe down pat - 2row, crystal, batch sparge,
> Danstar Nottingham. I was doing 2row and Munich trying
> to aim for an English mild but I think the crystal would be
> more appropriate for a standard recipe. I'm also doing about
> a ~2 gal boil aiming for a 3 gal recipe, mashing at 155F and
> then using a preset oven to hold temp.
>
> There are a couple of areas where I've decided to do some
> research to decide if they're important. I'm looking for
> comments on the following, in no real order:
>
> 1. Cooling in the Sink With Ice - generally ok.
> 2. Hot Break Removal - not a big issue, alot of thoughts
> either way.
> 3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
> shortly after fermentation begins.
> 4. Cold Fermentation - doesn't hurt to keep it under 70F.
> 5. Hot Side Aeration - probably not a problem if I don't get
> stupid about splashing. Batch Sparging now instead of
> rinsing so largely not an issue.
> 6. Protein Rest - not a big deal with ales but go for it
> if you want to.
> 7. Mash Out - not an issue if batch sparging, keep temp
> of water under 170 F.
> 8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
> but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
> 9. Irish Moss for clearing, no issues but rehydrate for
> 12 hrs prior.
> 10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
> item so why not.
>
> All the other standard practices like being careful about
> oxidation and rehydrating the yeast but is there anything
> I've missed?
Sounds like you've got the rules pretty well down pat. A couple things I
would add is, if using liquid yeast, always make a starter, and buy only
fresh (non-discounted) yeast. I've been bitten by that rule a couple of
times now. Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well. I think that's all
I've got to add.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 04:27:47
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> 10. I haven't found pH strips that work well yet. If you have a
> water chemistry report, you should be able to predict whether or
> not you'll need to adjust minerals, which ones, and how much.
> I'd adjust minerals only based upon a known deficiency or need.
Scott, what at the issues generally with pH strips?
Here is a water report for my city, Ottawa, Canada.
I've been thinking about contacting the city to see
if there is more recent data. I think this is old.
Calcium level seems low and according to one
reference could result in an oxalate haze. I did
post this data here once before and the response
was that it seemed ok (Ca, SO4, Cl and CO3 all
look fine) How would I know if the pH will end up
in the 5ish range?
Don
Ottawa, ON
Calcium (Ca) 17-18 ppm
Sulfate (SO4) 26 ppm
Magnesium (Mg) 2.4 ppm
Chloride (Cl) 5 ppm
Carbonate (CO3) 45 ppm
BiCarbonate ---
Sodium (Na) 15
Iron (Fe) 0.02
Copper (Cu) 3 ppb
Silicate (SiO2) 4.8
Zinc (Zn) 4 ppb
pH 8.4 - 8.8
THM ~40 ppb
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 19:29:24
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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dshesnicky@yahoo.com <dshesnicky@yahoo.com >:
>> 10. I haven't found pH strips that work well yet. If you
>> have a water chemistry report, you should be able to predict
>> whether or not you'll need to adjust minerals, which ones, and
>> how much. I'd adjust minerals only based upon a known
>> deficiency or need.
>Scott, what at the issues generally with pH strips?
Maybe it's just my ability to perceive, but the colors never seem
to resolve well enough. I probably could have persevered, but
soon decided I didn't need them.
>Here is a water report for my city, Ottawa, Canada. I've been
>thinking about contacting the city to see if there is more
>recent data. I think this is old.
>Calcium level seems low and according to one reference could
>result in an oxalate haze. I did post this data here once before
>and the response was that it seemed ok (Ca, SO4, Cl and CO3 all
>look fine) How would I know if the pH will end up in the 5ish
>range?
I use the method devised by John Palmer in his book, "How to
Brew". If you haven't already, I suggest studying the section
"Understanding Mash pH", in that book, or on howtobrew.com.
There you will find a nomograph, where you can chart your numbers
for calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. In turn, the nomograph
will show you the pH that a mash using plain base malt would be
expected to attain using your water.
[...]
>Ottawa, ON
>Calcium (Ca) 17-18 ppm
>Sulfate (SO4) 26 ppm
>Magnesium (Mg) 2.4 ppm
>Chloride (Cl) 5 ppm
>Carbonate (CO3) 45 ppm
>BiCarbonate ---
>Sodium (Na) 15
>Iron (Fe) 0.02
>Copper (Cu) 3 ppb
>Silicate (SiO2) 4.8
>Zinc (Zn) 4 ppb
>pH 8.4 - 8.8
>THM ~40 ppb
Just eyeballing your numbers, it looks like your calcium is kind
of low. (Most sources want 50+ ppm for mashing). Magnesium is
also low in these terms. OTOH, your carbonate doesn't seem real
high, and plugging these numbers into Palmer's nomograph gives a
room temperature mash pH of around 5.7, which would translate to
around 5.4-ish at mash temperatures.
Sodium, chloride, and sulfate, the main "flavor" minerals are
also low (at least compared to my water). This is probably good,
because it's much easier to add these than to subtract them.
This gives you flexibility.
Just flying seat-of-pants, but for a dark beer, you could
probably add some calcium carbonate to increase calcium and
balance the acidity of the dark malts. For lighter beers, you
could bring up the calcium with calcium chloride or calcium
sulfate, depending on where you want to be regarding flavor.
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 04:17:40
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
> your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
> astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well.
Good point, I'm batch sparging and I think I'm getting
a lot of carry over because there's no re-circulation.
I had considered filtering with cheese cloth or some
other filter, haven't completely thought out that one yet.
Don
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 08:49:08
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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<dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165148260.525022.252090@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
>> your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
>> astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well.
>
> Good point, I'm batch sparging and I think I'm getting
> a lot of carry over because there's no re-circulation.
> I had considered filtering with cheese cloth or some
> other filter, haven't completely thought out that one yet.
To recirculate, all you have to do is collect the first quart or two in a
pitcher (sometimes it takes a little more than this, but not much), and then
pour it back on top of the grain bed. When you can't see little chunks of
grain anymore, then you can simply run the rest into your brew kettle. The
grain bed itself acts like a filter.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 10:33:01
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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David M. Taylor wrote:
> <dshesnicky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1165148260.525022.252090@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
>>> your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
>>> astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well.
>> Good point, I'm batch sparging and I think I'm getting
>> a lot of carry over because there's no re-circulation.
>> I had considered filtering with cheese cloth or some
>> other filter, haven't completely thought out that one yet.
>
> To recirculate, all you have to do is collect the first quart or two in a
> pitcher (sometimes it takes a little more than this, but not much), and then
> pour it back on top of the grain bed. When you can't see little chunks of
> grain anymore, then you can simply run the rest into your brew kettle. The
> grain bed itself acts like a filter.
>
This is also the way I do it. Sometimes it takes as little as a pint,
sometimes as much as 3 quarts. Remember, the runoff doesn't have to be
clear. It just needs to be free of chunks of stuff.
Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 19:10:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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On 3 Dec 2006 04:17:40 -0800, <dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>> Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
>> your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
>> astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well.
>
> Good point, I'm batch sparging and I think I'm getting
> a lot of carry over because there's no re-circulation.
I'm not sure I understand what you're sarying, but there should still
be a recirculation step (aka vorlauf) when batch sparging.
John.
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 11:48:05
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> I use the method devised by John Palmer in his book, "How to
> Brew". If you haven't already, I suggest studying the section
> "Understanding Mash pH <snip>
Funny that, I just gave the wife my wish list and that
book was on it. I have Dave Miller's guide to Home
Brewing and Al Korzonas' Homebrewing Vol. 1 but
figured I'd add a 3rd opinion in case I had to break
a tie.
Don
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 11:37:55
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> > To recirculate, all you have to do is collect the first quart or two in a
> > pitcher (sometimes it takes a little more than this, but not much), and then
> > pour it back on top of the grain bed. When you can't see little chunks of
> > grain anymore, then you can simply run the rest into your brew kettle. The
> > grain bed itself acts like a filter.
I take it with batch sparging you would probably have
to re-create the filter bed each time you add more water
to the system since the bed will be disturbed each time
you completely drain it and refill? It's not like fly sparging
where the bed is set up and then never distrurbed.
Don
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:01:26
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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dshesnicky@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> To recirculate, all you have to do is collect the first quart or two in a
>>> pitcher (sometimes it takes a little more than this, but not much), and then
>>> pour it back on top of the grain bed. When you can't see little chunks of
>>> grain anymore, then you can simply run the rest into your brew kettle. The
>>> grain bed itself acts like a filter.
>
> I take it with batch sparging you would probably have
> to re-create the filter bed each time you add more water
> to the system since the bed will be disturbed each time
> you completely drain it and refill? It's not like fly sparging
> where the bed is set up and then never distrurbed.
I recirculate for the batch (I take the first runnings and then do a
single batch, unless it's a really huge beer). Recirculation only takes
like a minute or two for me, however. I may be wrong. but I thought I
remembered Denny saying he doesn't recirc for the batch.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 09:10:39
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> I recirculate for the batch (I take the first runnings and then do a
> single batch, unless it's a really huge beer). Recirculation only takes
> like a minute or two for me, however. I may be wrong. but I thought I
> remembered Denny saying he doesn't recirc for the batch.
Nope, I DEFINITELY recirc for the batch sparge. Usually it doesn't take
more than a qt. or 2, though.
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 14:02:56
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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<dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165174675.768886.69970@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I take it with batch sparging you would probably have
> to re-create the filter bed each time you add more water
> to the system since the bed will be disturbed each time
> you completely drain it and refill? It's not like fly sparging
> where the bed is set up and then never distrurbed.
You're right, you'll need to recirculate for each phase to make sure you
don't get any chunks.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 10:34:10
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> >> Also, this might be a no brainer, but be sure to recirculate
> >> your runoff until clear, so as not to boil grain material and end up with
> >> astringent tannins. I've made that mistake as well.
> >
> > Good point, I'm batch sparging and I think I'm getting
> > a lot of carry over because there's no re-circulation.
> > I had considered filtering with cheese cloth or some
> > other filter, haven't completely thought out that one yet.
>
> To recirculate, all you have to do is collect the first quart or two in a
> pitcher (sometimes it takes a little more than this, but not much), and then
> pour it back on top of the grain bed. When you can't see little chunks of
> grain anymore, then you can simply run the rest into your brew kettle. The
> grain bed itself acts like a filter.
>
I wasn't recirculating at all in the last batch. Just batch
sparging by adding the 170F water, letting it sit for 3-5 min
and then draining and repeating the process with fresh 170F
water. I didn't think you recirculated with a batch sparge
but now I see that you should. I'll adjust the technique as
it makes sense to use the grain bed as the filter and that
you need to get rid of the spent grain and husks.
Don
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 19:25:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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On 3 Dec 2006 10:34:10 -0800, <dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I wasn't recirculating at all in the last batch. Just batch
> sparging by adding the 170F water, letting it sit for 3-5 min
> and then draining and repeating the process with fresh 170F
> water. I didn't think you recirculated with a batch sparge
> but now I see that you should. I'll adjust the technique as
> it makes sense to use the grain bed as the filter and that
> you need to get rid of the spent grain and husks.
I don't batch sparge, but my understanding from those that do is that
you recirculate briefly before draining each batch. It shouldn't add a
lot of extra time.
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:42:13
From: John Bleichert
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2006 10:34:10 -0800, <dshesnicky@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I wasn't recirculating at all in the last batch. Just batch
>> sparging by adding the 170F water, letting it sit for 3-5 min
>> and then draining and repeating the process with fresh 170F
>> water. I didn't think you recirculated with a batch sparge
>> but now I see that you should. I'll adjust the technique as
>> it makes sense to use the grain bed as the filter and that
>> you need to get rid of the spent grain and husks.
>
> I don't batch sparge, but my understanding from those that do is that
> you recirculate briefly before draining each batch. It shouldn't add a
> lot of extra time.
>
>
> John.
Doesn't add much time, and I done let mine drian quickly. Rarely takes
more than 2 pints to vorlauf, though I've reached a quart before.
-----------------------------------------------
John Bleichert syborg@earthlink.net
The heat from below can burn your eyes out!!
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 09:09:35
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
|
dshesnicky@yahoo.com wrote:
> I wasn't recirculating at all in the last batch. Just batch
> sparging by adding the 170F water, letting it sit for 3-5 min
> and then draining and repeating the process with fresh 170F
> water. I didn't think you recirculated with a batch sparge
> but now I see that you should. I'll adjust the technique as
> it makes sense to use the grain bed as the filter and that
> you need to get rid of the spent grain and husks.
Don, this might help you fine tune your batch sparge technique...
www.hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew
------------ >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 19:08:46
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
|
On 2 Dec 2006 12:24:16 -0800, <dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote:
> 1. Cooling in the Sink With Ice - generally ok.
An ice water bath works fine, that's how I used to cool my partial boil
extract beers. I wouldn't add ice directly into the wort though, if that's
what you're talking about.
> 2. Hot Break Removal - not a big issue, alot of thoughts
> either way.
This one tends to be debatable. Hot break has the potential for causing some
issues, but they're minimized if you aerate really well. My advice is that if
you have an easy method for removing it, then do so. There are probably
more important things to worry about though.
> 3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
> shortly after fermentation begins.
Cold break doesn't really do any harm. Some of it is even beneficial.
> 4. Cold Fermentation - doesn't hurt to keep it under 70F.
Doesn't hurt? I'd recommend that you always want to keep it under 70F.
That's not "cold", IMO 70F and higher is too hot. For an ale, I generally
like to shoot for the mid 60s.
> 5. Hot Side Aeration - probably not a problem if I don't get
> stupid about splashing. Batch Sparging now instead of
> rinsing so largely not an issue.
Yeah, that's my take on it as well. Some people get a little paranoid about
HSA. IMO, it's not really an issue unless you're seriously abusing your
wort. Just use common sense and don't splash it around and you'll be fine.
> 6. Protein Rest - not a big deal with ales but go for it
> if you want to.
I'd disagree on this one. You only want to do a protein rest if the
ingredients you are using require it. Most of the time, you only need to
do one if you're using adjuncts that have a high protein content. Most
forms of malted barley that you're going to get do not require a protein
rest (you have to go through a lot of trouble to find ones that do). Doing
a protein rest when you don't need one can lead to problems with head
retention, body, etc.
> 7. Mash Out - not an issue if batch sparging, keep temp
> of water under 170 F.
A mashout is always optional, but there's nothing inherrant about a batch
sparge that makes it a non-issue. It's not really the sparge method, but
rather your equipment. However you sparge, if your system keeps the grain
bed temp where it should be on it's own, then you probably don't need to do
a mashout first.
Regarding your second statement, it's not the temp of the water that matters.
For example, I heat my sparge water to 212F (boiling) before I use it. What
is important is the temp of the grain bed during the sparge. That, ideally,
should stay under 170F. Make the temp of the sparge water whatever it needs
to be in order to get the temp of the grain bed right. It'll vary depending
on your system.
> 8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
> but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
IMO, carboy swishing/shaking is a fairly inefficient method of aerating.
There are several much better alternatives. My favorite is a Mix-stir
aerator. It's cheap, easy, and very effective.
> 9. Irish Moss for clearing, no issues but rehydrate for
> 12 hrs prior.
Personally, I haven't used any irish moss in years. I just give the beer
a little extra time in the secondary and it clears fine.
> 10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
> item so why not.
I wouldn't even worry about your pH unless you notice that you are having
problems that could be pH related. I think for most people, it's a non-issue.
Definitely don't start adjusting it unless you know what the pH in the mash
tun is. The pH of the water doesn't really matter (like the temp with sparge
water). It's the pH of the grain bed during the mash/sparge which is
important. Don't make the mistake of measuring the pH of your tap water,
and then adjusting based on that.
> All the other standard practices like being careful about
> oxidation and rehydrating the yeast but is there anything
> I've missed?
Personally, I don't bother rehydrating dry yeast. If you're using liquid
yeast, I would definitely recommend starters.
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 06:51:35
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> > 3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
> > shortly after fermentation begins.
>
> Cold break doesn't really do any harm. Some of it is even beneficial.
What about trub removal shortly after fermentation starts?
> > 6. Protein Rest - not a big deal with ales but go for it
> > if you want to.
>
> I'd disagree on this one. You only want to do a protein rest if the
> ingredients you are using require it. Most of the time, you only need to
> do one if you're using adjuncts that have a high protein content. <snip>
Shouldn't be an issue then for a "Get it Right All Grain".
Very basic 2 Row with Crystal.
> > 7. Mash Out - not an issue if batch sparging, keep temp
> > of water under 170 F.
>
> A mashout is always optional, but there's nothing inherrant about a batch
> sparge that makes it a non-issue. <snip>
The reason I say it's an non-issue is that batch
sparging at 170 right after mashing is the mash out.
> > 8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
> > but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
>
> IMO, carboy swishing/shaking is a fairly inefficient method of aerating.
> There are several much better alternatives. My favorite is a Mix-stir
> aerator. It's cheap, easy, and very effective.
I do have a Fizz-X for wine degassing and I should
consider that but I think the point here is that I need
to pay alot more attention to aeration. Chart I've seen
showed that 8 min, which is about 5 more minutes
than I've done in the past, gives ~80% of max.
> > 10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
> > item so why not.
>
> I wouldn't even worry about your pH unless you notice that you are having
> problems that could be pH related. <snip>
What are the problems that could be pH related?
BTW, thanks for all of the feedback John.
Don
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 17:15:09
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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On 5 Dec 2006 06:51:35 -0800, <dshesnicky@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>> > 3. Cold Break/Trub Removal - wouldn't hurt to do this
>> > shortly after fermentation begins.
>>
>> Cold break doesn't really do any harm. Some of it is even beneficial.
>
> What about trub removal shortly after fermentation starts?
Hot break is the only potential source of problems, and then usually it
can be minimized if you aerate well. The other stuff, hop residue,
cold break, proteins, etc are all basically inert in the regards that
they shouldn't effect the primary fermentation. You probably don't want
to do long term storage on the trub, but for the week or so that it's
in the primary it shouldn't cause any problems. Some people do rack the
beer off of the trub either right before fermentation or just after
it starts. IMO, it probably doesn't have a significant impact. Personally,
I don't worry about it.
>> > 8. Wort aeration before fermentation - already doing this
>> > but will attempt to get this up to 8 min of carboy swishing.
>>
>> IMO, carboy swishing/shaking is a fairly inefficient method of aerating.
>> There are several much better alternatives. My favorite is a Mix-stir
>> aerator. It's cheap, easy, and very effective.
>
> I do have a Fizz-X for wine degassing and I should
> consider that but I think the point here is that I need
> to pay alot more attention to aeration. Chart I've seen
> showed that 8 min, which is about 5 more minutes
> than I've done in the past, gives ~80% of max.
I'm not sure how such a chart can be anywhere close to accurate. There
is going to be a huge difference based on how hard you swish/shake the
carboy. You can gently rock the carboy for 8 minutes and hardly get any
aeration at all, or you can shake it so violently that you can get
decent aeration in that time. That's a big variable that is almost
impossible to define.
It's possible to get decent aeration by swirling/shaking, but it takes
a lot more work and there's no easy way of knowing when you've done
enough. IMO, something that is easier and more effective is a good idea
since the odds are that you'll achieve better aeration that way.
Looks like a Fizz-X is basically the same thing as a Mix-stir. I'd
definitely use that if you've already got one instead of swirling/shaking.
>> > 10. Pick up pH strips and chemicals to lower/raise, easy
>> > item so why not.
>>
>> I wouldn't even worry about your pH unless you notice that you are having
>> problems that could be pH related. <snip>
>
> What are the problems that could be pH related?
There are others that can probably answer this better than I can, but I
think the basic problems would be either issues with getting complete
conversion (enzymes prefer a certain pH range) or tannin extraction (if
the pH gets too high).
John.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 18:53:27
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> I'm not sure how such a chart can be anywhere close to accurate. There
> is going to be a huge difference based on how hard you swish/shake the
> carboy. You can gently rock the carboy for 8 minutes and hardly get any
> aeration at all, or you can shake it so violently that you can get
> decent aeration in that time. That's a big variable that is almost
> impossible to define.
I dug out the reference. Al Korzonas's Homebrewing Vol.1
pp. 115-117, quoting some tests done by A. J. deLange and
posted to the HBD. Three experiments mentioned. The third
was a comparison of "shaking a half-filled carboy, bubbling
compressed air through an airstone with gentle swirling and
bubbling oxygen through an airstone with gentle swirling"
Using oxygen hit a value of 145% saturation in 2 min.
Compressed air 90% in 5 min and 98% in 8 min, shaking
80% in 4 min and 87% in 8 min.
It didn't mention any averaging of multiple tests so take it as
ball park and there was a mention that "unless the carboy was
sealed with an airlock, that 145% saturation would eventually
drop to 100%". So the value of 145% is not a typo.
So 8 to 10 solid minutes of shaking. Alot more than I've
been doing I'm sure. Try timing it, I bet 4 min feels like
10. At least with a fizz stick or whatever you can use a drill.
Don
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 17:39:45
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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dshesnicky@yahoo.com <dshesnicky@yahoo.com >:
[...]
>I dug out the reference. Al Korzonas's Homebrewing Vol.1 pp.
>115-117, quoting some tests done by A. J. deLange and posted to
>the HBD. Three experiments mentioned. The third was a comparison
>of "shaking a half-filled carboy, bubbling compressed air
>through an airstone with gentle swirling and bubbling oxygen
>through an airstone with gentle swirling"
>Using oxygen hit a value of 145% saturation in 2 min.
>Compressed air 90% in 5 min and 98% in 8 min, shaking
>80% in 4 min and 87% in 8 min.
>It didn't mention any averaging of multiple tests so take it as
>ball park and there was a mention that "unless the carboy was
>sealed with an airlock, that 145% saturation would eventually
>drop to 100%". So the value of 145% is not a typo.
>So 8 to 10 solid minutes of shaking. Alot more than I've been
>doing I'm sure. Try timing it, I bet 4 min feels like 10. At
>least with a fizz stick or whatever you can use a drill.
I think using the paint mixer type, on an electric drill, would
work much faster than compressed air through an airstone + gentle
swirling. At moderate drill speed, you can easily stir the beer
into an airy froth.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 18:52:35
From:
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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> I'm not sure how such a chart can be anywhere close to accurate. There
> is going to be a huge difference based on how hard you swish/shake the
> carboy. You can gently rock the carboy for 8 minutes and hardly get any
> aeration at all, or you can shake it so violently that you can get
> decent aeration in that time. That's a big variable that is almost
> impossible to define.
I dug out the reference. Al Korzonas's Homebrewing Vol.1
pp. 115-117, quoting some tests done by A. J. deLange and
posted to the HBD. Three experiments mentioned. The third
was a comparison of "shaking a half-filled carboy, bubbling
compressed air through an airstone with gentle swirling and
bubbling oxygen through an airstone with gentle swirling"
Using oxygen hit a value of 145% saturation in 2 min.
Compressed air 90% in 5 min and 98% in 8 min, shaking
80% in 4 min and 87% in 8 min.
It didn't mention any averaging of multiple tests so take it as
ball park and there was a mention that "unless the carboy was
sealed with an airlock, that 145% saturation would eventually
drop to 100%". So the value of 145% is not a typo.
So 8 to 10 solid minutes of shaking. Alot more than I've
been doing I'm sure. Try timing it, I bet 4 min feels like
10. At least with a fizz stick or whatever you can use a drill.
Don
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:15:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Get it Right AG - misc details
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On 5 Dec 2006 18:52:35 -0800, <dshesnicky@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>
>> I'm not sure how such a chart can be anywhere close to accurate. There
>> is going to be a huge difference based on how hard you swish/shake the
>> carboy. You can gently rock the carboy for 8 minutes and hardly get any
>> aeration at all, or you can shake it so violently that you can get
>> decent aeration in that time. That's a big variable that is almost
>> impossible to define.
>
> I dug out the reference. Al Korzonas's Homebrewing Vol.1
> pp. 115-117, quoting some tests done by A. J. deLange and
> posted to the HBD. Three experiments mentioned. The third
> was a comparison of "shaking a half-filled carboy, bubbling
> compressed air through an airstone with gentle swirling and
> bubbling oxygen through an airstone with gentle swirling"
Define "shaking". That's my main point, there is going to be
a wide variation on methods and intensities of "shaking" such
that you can't really put a universal number on it's effectiveness.
Don't get me wrong, it's possible to get effective aeration this way.
However, as you say, it probably takes longer than most people
think it does (especially when you're getting tired and it feels like
you've been shaking longer than you have), but you're also going to
be just guessing as to when you're done.
I would guess that on average, brewers who rely on this method are
probably not getting the amount of aeration that they think they are.
John.
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