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Main
Date: 17 Nov 2006 01:50:02
From: Brian Foster
Subject: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
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I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
on the first try.
First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
overnight.
Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
gurgling noise.
I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg when
the gurgling slows.
In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too flat
for my taste after my first try at it.
2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
day.
Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
Thanks.
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 05:59:10
From: Stoutman
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
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"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in
news:ez87h.33854$rG.25531@tornado.texas.rr.com:
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation
> correct on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at
> least overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for
> the gurgling noise.
>
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg
> when the gurgling slows.
>
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was
> too flat for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the
> next day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
The length, thickness, and inner diameter of your hoses will make a
difference on the pressures you use to some extent. But for my setup I
typically take my beer at room temp (just racked from secondary) crank my
pressure to 30psi and sit in a chair with the keg laying across my knees.
I don't attach the gas to the 'beer out' line because my valves are
different and can't attach gas to beer and vice versa. So the gas goes
to the gas-in. Then I rock the keg back and forth by lifting one foot,
putting it down then lifting the other, etc. I hear bubbling and all
that jazz so I know I'm getting stuff in and I'm agitating the beer
enough. I do this for about 6-7 minutes then disconnect the gas to the
beer and put my keg in the fridge and chill it down to serving temp. I
turn off my CO2, bleed my supply lines of the extra pressure, turn the
gas back on, and set my regulator to about 15psi, gas off, and I'm done
for the night.
Next day, I bleed the extra pressure from the keg, gas on, and hook up my
gas line and draw off a sample and I'm usually good to go.
I do not leave the gas turned on when I'm not dispensing beer. I have a
manifold where I close each line and I shut of the gas at the tank.
That's pretty much my gig and it's worked pretty well for me. Sometimes
I have to alter it a bit here and there to suit my style.
For over carbonation, since I usually close my manifold, I just pull the
release valve on the keg a several times over a few hours or so until
it's more to my liking. Under-carbonated, I leave the gas on overnight.
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 21:32:59
From: Ed Edelenbos
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
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"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in message
news:ez87h.33854$rG.25531@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
> on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
> overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
> gurgling noise.
>
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg
> when the gurgling slows.
>
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too
> flat for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
> day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
>
> Thanks.
I tried all that shaking stuff... and never got it. These days I either
prime the keg (4-6 oz. sugar for a 5 gallon batch) or just hook it up at
serving pressure (12-15 psi) for 5 days. Sure, my stouts end up as
carbonated as my wheat beers but it always seems about right to me.
The only thing to be sure of when priming the keg is to seal it with around
20-30 psi. When I fill the keg I need to purge the air anyway. That is a
good time to crank up the regulator. I then turn it back down to serving
pressure. I try to stay ahead of the game and have 2 full kegs waiting.
Ed
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 01:38:58
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
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"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in message
news:ez87h.33854$rG.25531@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
> on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
> overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
> gurgling noise.
>
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg
when
> the gurgling slows.
>
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too
flat
> for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
> day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
I just hit the filled, chilled keg with 30-50 lbs, and shake the top
of the keg back and forth for awhile, which quickly disolves CO2
into the beer. 10-15 minutes of this, I get bored, and disconnect
the gas and leave it in the cooler. Next time I think of it, I check the
pressure in the keg, If it's where I want it, I'm done. Otherwise, I
repeat as needed. Since the air space at the top of a filled keg is
small, the CO2 there is quickly absorbed into the beer until the
pressure there is balanced with the CO2 in the beer.
Just turning off the CO2 and shaking the top of the keg so the beer
splashes a lot in the 'airspace' quickly equalizes the pressure so
you can check whether you are done. When the equalized pressure
is at or above the desired level then just give it a few hours and
check again to be sure.
I choose not to leave the CO2 connected long term after losing
a couple botttles of CO2 to leaks. When a keg is full, I add CO2
every few pints. After that, as the space at the top grows, it goes
longer between additions.
Bob
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 14:15:05
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
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: I choose not to leave the CO2 connected long term after losing
: a couple botttles of CO2 to leaks. When a keg is full, I add CO2
: every few pints. After that, as the space at the top grows, it goes
: longer between additions.
Both my brother and I do the same thing. I've got 7 kegs, and he's got about
16 (10 of which fit in his kegorator). It's just never seemed worth spending over
$100 on all the plumbing necessary to hook everything up together. Besides, one can
add a little more pressure in the Hefe's and a little less in the stouts...
-Cory
--
*************************************************************************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
*************************************************************************
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 22:42:28
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Brian Foster wrote:
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
> on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
> overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
> gurgling noise.
Don't refridgerate immediately.. unless you intent to drink it right away.
I try to keep a keg at room temp for 2-4 weeks on my second carbonating CO2
tank. Then it goes in the fridge.
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg when
> the gurgling slows.
I do that at 15PSI for 5 minutes, then leave it on the CO2 for 2-4 weeks.
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too flat
> for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
> day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
My first few batches had too much foam.. I toned down the pressure and it
got better. It takes a few times to get it right.
--
Dan
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Date: 18 Nov 2006 02:24:15
From: Brian
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
For most beers, stick the corny in the fridge with the C02 on it at from
12-16psi and let it go for about 3 days (more for more carbonation, less for
stouts, etc.).
"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in message
news:ez87h.33854$rG.25531@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
> on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
> overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
> gurgling noise.
>
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg
> when the gurgling slows.
>
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too
> flat for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
> day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
>
> Thanks.
>
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Date: 21 Nov 2006 17:11:05
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:50:02 GMT, <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote:
> I've done a few kegs now and it seems I rarely get the carbonation correct
> on the first try.
>
> First I rack the beer into a keg and refrigerate to serving temp at least
> overnight.
> Then I force CO2 into the out side of my ball lock keg and listen for the
> gurgling noise.
>
> I use about 30psi and let it go for about 10 minutes and shake the keg when
> the gurgling slows.
>
> In all but one keg I had to repeat the process because the beer was too flat
> for my taste after my first try at it.
>
> 2nd time I just repeat the process and the beer has a good head the next
> day.
>
> Are you guys getting it right the 1st time? What am I missing?
The method you're using is fairly inaccurate. I don't think you're really
missing anything. It's just the nature of trying to do it that way. You're
never going to be able to know how much gas is really going into the beer,
mostly it's just a guess. Some people have luck with this method, but it's
going to be a lot of trial and error.
Personally, I don't carbonate my kegs that way. I prefer to hook them up
at the final serving pressure, and leave the gas turned on for about
a week. This way, I know exactly what the final carbonation level is going
to be without all the guesswork of the shake at 30PSI method.
John.
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Date: 22 Nov 2006 12:06:39
From: Carter Cathey
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
I do this too, but I think the process can be sped up considerably by using
higher pressure and shaking the hell out of the keg when you first hook it
up. Then, over the next few days under serving pressure, it gets where it
needs to be.
Carter
>
> Personally, I don't carbonate my kegs that way. I prefer to hook them up
> at the final serving pressure, and leave the gas turned on for about
> a week. This way, I know exactly what the final carbonation level is
> going
> to be without all the guesswork of the shake at 30PSI method.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 22 Nov 2006 19:33:38
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:06:39 -0600, <cartercathey@comcast.net > wrote:
> I do this too, but I think the process can be sped up considerably by using
> higher pressure and shaking the hell out of the keg when you first hook it
> up. Then, over the next few days under serving pressure, it gets where it
> needs to be.
Personally, I just don't see any value in trying to speed the process up.
John.
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Date: 22 Nov 2006 15:01:20
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnem99q6.9c9.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:06:39 -0600, <cartercathey@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I do this too, but I think the process can be sped up considerably by
>> using
>> higher pressure and shaking the hell out of the keg when you first hook
>> it
>> up. Then, over the next few days under serving pressure, it gets where
>> it
>> needs to be.
>
> Personally, I just don't see any value in trying to speed the process up.
>
>
> John.
it's thirst, pure and simple :)
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Date: 24 Nov 2006 04:57:40
From: Carter Cathey
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
My general procrastination tends to leave me kegging a day or two before I
am planing to take beer somewhere.
No doubt the preference is standard pressure...
Carter
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnem99q6.9c9.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:06:39 -0600, <cartercathey@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I do this too, but I think the process can be sped up considerably by
>> using
>> higher pressure and shaking the hell out of the keg when you first hook
>> it
>> up. Then, over the next few days under serving pressure, it gets where
>> it
>> needs to be.
>
> Personally, I just don't see any value in trying to speed the process up.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 14:48:16
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Corny keg setups are notorious for leaking small amounts of CO2. I put
this geocities site up about 7 years ago when I used to be active here.
http://www.geocities.com/kegoratormadness/
Since then I have raised the collar to keep ponys in there. And I keep
a bigger tank behind it. 10 years eh? Maybe time to redo all the lines
and get a new manifold. ;)
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> > This is true. If your lines are balanced properly, after you have the
> > right amount of CO2 VOLS in your beer, there should never be a reason
> > to screw around with your pressure.
> > I balance all my lines at home to 16 PSI...and I carbonate to 2.6 VOLS.
> > I like things a bit more on the well carbonated side.
>
> Yeah -- I used to do it that way. My 10-year old manifold has developed
> an extremely slow leak somewhere, however, which isn't yielding to the
> usual soap bubble detection methods. I'm fairly sure liberal doses of
> keg lube throughout would fix the problem, but I just haven't gotten
> around to it since it really doesn't cause any problems.
>
> I also (on good days) have no room in the serving freezer to put the
> tank. One day I'll put a collar on it and keep the tank outside, but
> until then...
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 17:00:27
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> Corny keg setups are notorious for leaking small amounts of CO2. I put
> this geocities site up about 7 years ago when I used to be active here.
> http://www.geocities.com/kegoratormadness/
Pretty -- I was just going to go for plain white.
>
> Since then I have raised the collar to keep ponys in there. And I keep
> a bigger tank behind it. 10 years eh? Maybe time to redo all the lines
> and get a new manifold. ;)
It's on my ever-growing todo list, although a full conversion is a lot
farther up. I have replaced the lines, though.
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 13:44:01
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
This is true. If your lines are balanced properly, after you have the
right amount of CO2 VOLS in your beer, there should never be a reason
to screw around with your pressure.
I balance all my lines at home to 16 PSI...and I carbonate to 2.6 VOLS.
I like things a bit more on the well carbonated side.
>
> IMO, if you can set it up so that the CO2 can stay on all the time it makes
> life much easier. Besides the carbonation thing, it makes dispensing the
> keg a lot easier if you don't have to worry about periodically hitting the
> keg with a shot of pressure.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:24:21
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> This is true. If your lines are balanced properly, after you have the
> right amount of CO2 VOLS in your beer, there should never be a reason
> to screw around with your pressure.
> I balance all my lines at home to 16 PSI...and I carbonate to 2.6 VOLS.
> I like things a bit more on the well carbonated side.
Yeah -- I used to do it that way. My 10-year old manifold has developed
an extremely slow leak somewhere, however, which isn't yielding to the
usual soap bubble detection methods. I'm fairly sure liberal doses of
keg lube throughout would fix the problem, but I just haven't gotten
around to it since it really doesn't cause any problems.
I also (on good days) have no room in the serving freezer to put the
tank. One day I'll put a collar on it and keep the tank outside, but
until then...
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 02:25:12
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com >:
>harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
>> This is true. If your lines are balanced properly, after you
>> have the right amount of CO2 VOLS in your beer, there should
>> never be a reason to screw around with your pressure. I
>> balance all my lines at home to 16 PSI...and I carbonate to
>> 2.6 VOLS. I like things a bit more on the well carbonated
>> side.
>Yeah -- I used to do it that way. My 10-year old manifold has
>developed an extremely slow leak somewhere, however, which isn't
>yielding to the usual soap bubble detection methods. I'm fairly
>sure liberal doses of keg lube throughout would fix the problem,
>but I just haven't gotten around to it since it really doesn't
>cause any problems.
I don't trust my gas lines, just on principle. I find that gas
is a shifty, ephemeral state of matter, and not trustworthy. I
always shut the valves after the days serving is done. I still
think of my setup as a balanced system. If carbonation is
equalized at serving pressure, the act of serving is enough to
maintain balance.
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 19:35:53
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
"Scott Sellers" <scottsellers@mindspring.com > wrote in message
news:cu5ch.5898$tM1.1358@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty <mikey666@666swampgas.666com>:
>
> >harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> This is true. If your lines are balanced properly, after you
> >> have the right amount of CO2 VOLS in your beer, there should
> >> never be a reason to screw around with your pressure. I
> >> balance all my lines at home to 16 PSI...and I carbonate to
> >> 2.6 VOLS. I like things a bit more on the well carbonated
> >> side.
>
> >Yeah -- I used to do it that way. My 10-year old manifold has
> >developed an extremely slow leak somewhere, however, which isn't
> >yielding to the usual soap bubble detection methods. I'm fairly
> >sure liberal doses of keg lube throughout would fix the problem,
> >but I just haven't gotten around to it since it really doesn't
> >cause any problems.
>
> I don't trust my gas lines, just on principle. I find that gas
> is a shifty, ephemeral state of matter, and not trustworthy. I
> always shut the valves after the days serving is done. I still
> think of my setup as a balanced system. If carbonation is
> equalized at serving pressure, the act of serving is enough to
> maintain balance.
I remove the hoses from the kegs also. Otherwise, any leaks
in the system will leak pressure from the kegs also.
Question to others - If you pressurize your CO2 hose system with
no kegs attached, does it retain pressure? If not, how fast does it fade?
Bob
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 18:24:15
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:35:53 -0800, <bobnospam@gmail.com > wrote:
> I remove the hoses from the kegs also. Otherwise, any leaks
> in the system will leak pressure from the kegs also.
I haven't turned off or disconnected my CO2 tank in at least a year.
> Question to others - If you pressurize your CO2 hose system with
> no kegs attached, does it retain pressure? If not, how fast does it fade?
It should hold pressure. Mine does. If it doesn't then you've got a leak
somewhere.
John.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 21:40:15
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnen8q8o.483.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:35:53 -0800, <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I remove the hoses from the kegs also. Otherwise, any leaks
> > in the system will leak pressure from the kegs also.
>
> I haven't turned off or disconnected my CO2 tank in at least a year.
>
> > Question to others - If you pressurize your CO2 hose system with
> > no kegs attached, does it retain pressure? If not, how fast does it
fade?
>
> It should hold pressure. Mine does. If it doesn't then you've got a leak
> somewhere.
Someday I've got to spend some time on tracking that down then.
Bob
.
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Date: 25 Nov 2006 18:04:10
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Well if you keep pressure on the beer wont back up anyways. But I have
some nice check valves that have lost pressure on the gas side a few
times and have never let a drop through.
Its really the only way to carbonate quickly, unless you rig up a CO2
stone...which I have seen plans to fit a corny with an aquarium stone.
Seems a little hokey to me...but hey...whatever works, right?
>
> You mean the liquid out dip tube? I'd be careful leaving gas on the liquid
> side, even if you have a check valve. I have a seperate carbonating tank
> with check valves and I still got beer back in the gas line.
>
> --
> Dan
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 10:42:19
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> Well if you keep pressure on the beer wont back up anyways. But I have
> some nice check valves that have lost pressure on the gas side a few
> times and have never let a drop through.
I think there were temperature or barametric changes that caused a back
pressure. A small amount of beer made its way back in the tubing, but
not into the regulator.
> Its really the only way to carbonate quickly, unless you rig up a CO2
> stone...which I have seen plans to fit a corny with an aquarium stone.
> Seems a little hokey to me...but hey...whatever works, right?
I turn it up to 30 PSI and shake for a while. I usually don't start
drinking it right away though.. so I turn it down to 15 PSI at 64F and
leave for a week or so.
--
Dan
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 08:32:01
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 15:34:41 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thanks,
> >
> > I told my wife I wanted a kegoratror in our living room, she looked me
> > like I was loony until I made it attractive. It was a fun project too.
> > I just hope it never dies. That was like $150.00 In maple veneer.
>
> I'm lucky enough that I got the basement declared as my domain. I've got
> half of it setup like a pub. 15' bar with tap tower (kegs are under the
> bar), pool table, dart board. I could pretty much setup the keg system
> anyway I wanted, and didn't have to worry about spousal complaints regarding
> having a kegorator in the living room.
>
>
> John.
Sweet. Just out of curiosity, how did you refrigerate your bar? I just
finished welding the frame of a 16' 90 degree angled bar for my back
patio. I scored a compressor and evaporator from a refrigeration guy
and I plan to insulate the bars interior and finish it out in stone and
cedar. I'm going to fabricate two copper towers with four taps on each
tower and mixed gas running to three of them for nitro beers. When I
poured my patio, I plumbed a drain in it that joins the city sewer, so
I can have a sink. I was thinking of getting one of those "heat in
place" boxes for the hot side, since I dont want to run two water lines
out.
Its quite a project. I'll probably wait until next summer to finish.
Getting cold out...
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 20:19:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On 25 Nov 2006 18:04:10 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Well if you keep pressure on the beer wont back up anyways.
It's still possible for it to back up into the gas line this way. Basically
all that needs to happen is if the pressure in the keg becomes higher than
the pressure from the regulator. IE, if you kegged too early, a stuck
fermentation kicks back in, your tank runs out of CO2... etc.
There's very little difference between carbonating through the liquid dip
tube versus through the gas dip tube. IMO, you might was well hook it
up the "right" way instead of "backwards". That way you're sure that the gas
line is above the level of beer in the keg. Any benefit you would get from
hooking it up the other way is fairly insignificant.
John.
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Date: 25 Nov 2006 12:23:58
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
I used to do this alot. I found 30 PSI for appx. 24 hrs, through the
racking arm did the trick. Then let it settle for another day or so. No
shaking required. And it was perfect almost every time.
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Date: 25 Nov 2006 17:13:44
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> I used to do this alot. I found 30 PSI for appx. 24 hrs, through the
> racking arm did the trick. Then let it settle for another day or so. No
> shaking required. And it was perfect almost every time.
You mean the liquid out dip tube? I'd be careful leaving gas on the liquid
side, even if you have a check valve. I have a seperate carbonating tank
with check valves and I still got beer back in the gas line.
--
Dan
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 15:34:41
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Thanks,
I told my wife I wanted a kegoratror in our living room, she looked me
like I was loony until I made it attractive. It was a fun project too.
I just hope it never dies. That was like $150.00 In maple veneer.
The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
> harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Corny keg setups are notorious for leaking small amounts of CO2. I put
> > this geocities site up about 7 years ago when I used to be active here.
> > http://www.geocities.com/kegoratormadness/
>
> Pretty -- I was just going to go for plain white.
>
> >
> > Since then I have raised the collar to keep ponys in there. And I keep
> > a bigger tank behind it. 10 years eh? Maybe time to redo all the lines
> > and get a new manifold. ;)
>
> It's on my ever-growing todo list, although a full conversion is a lot
> farther up. I have replaced the lines, though.
>
>
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
>
> Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
> Buy several copies today!
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:12:16
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On 28 Nov 2006 15:34:41 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Thanks,
>
> I told my wife I wanted a kegoratror in our living room, she looked me
> like I was loony until I made it attractive. It was a fun project too.
> I just hope it never dies. That was like $150.00 In maple veneer.
I'm lucky enough that I got the basement declared as my domain. I've got
half of it setup like a pub. 15' bar with tap tower (kegs are under the
bar), pool table, dart board. I could pretty much setup the keg system
anyway I wanted, and didn't have to worry about spousal complaints regarding
having a kegorator in the living room.
John.
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 10:18:49
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
> I turn it up to 30 PSI and shake for a while. I usually don't start
> drinking it right away though.. so I turn it down to 15 PSI at 64F and
> leave for a week or so.
>
> --
> Dan
Why 64F? It's harder for CO2 to absorb at warmer temperatures. Its much
easier to carbonate if you keep it as cold as possible.
Shaking cornys isnt for me. I understand the thought behind it. But I
think the gains are fairly minimal for the amount of energy exerted.
Those cornys are capable of holding alot of pressure.
Get the beer down to temp (34-42). Crank the pressure on at 30, own the
dip tube for at least overnight. Remove pressure...allow the beer to
absorb the CO2 at the low temp for a day or so...then hook up and pour.
the quickest way with the least amount of work
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| | |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 21:06:27
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
>>I turn it up to 30 PSI and shake for a while. I usually don't start
>>drinking it right away though.. so I turn it down to 15 PSI at 64F and
>>leave for a week or so.
>
> Why 64F? It's harder for CO2 to absorb at warmer temperatures. Its much
> easier to carbonate if you keep it as cold as possible.
Beer conditions faster at warmer temps, and that's the temp in my basement.
> Shaking cornys isnt for me. I understand the thought behind it. But I
> think the gains are fairly minimal for the amount of energy exerted.
> Those cornys are capable of holding alot of pressure.
Its a good way to get more CO2 dissolved in the beer. Once I've done this,
I know I can remove from the tank and leave to condition in the basement.
I try not to tap the keg until its conditioned for 2-4 weeks.
> Get the beer down to temp (34-42). Crank the pressure on at 30, own the
> dip tube for at least overnight. Remove pressure...allow the beer to
> absorb the CO2 at the low temp for a day or so...then hook up and pour.
> the quickest way with the least amount of work
But if I have two kegs in the kegerator already, I carbonate and condition
in the basement on my second tank. Conditioning is more important to me
than carbonating, cuz I know I can carbonate quickly if need be.
--
Dan
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 14:04:05
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
<harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote in message
> Shaking cornys isnt for me. I understand the thought behind it. But I
> think the gains are fairly minimal for the amount of energy exerted.
> Those cornys are capable of holding alot of pressure.
>
My regulator makes a certain amount of noise when CO2 passes
through it. If I connect the CO2 to an uncarbonated corny, I hear
a rush of gas for several seconds which graduly tapers off. If I
then shake the top back and forth, I immediately hear the CO2 flow
again. It clearly makes a significant difference. It is probably just
as significant as shaking an opened bottle of beer is at letting
CO2 out of the beer.
Bob
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 21:08:54
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
>
> Beer conditions faster at warmer temps, and that's the temp in my basement.
At 64F you could still be fermenting. This is a little higher than a
diacetyl rest even. Once your diacetyl rest is over, beer should be
kept as cold as possible to condition. This helps facilitate
flocculaton of yeast and other suspended particles. So while holding
beer at 64 dgrees post ferment may 'age' a beer faster... to properly
condition a beer you will want to actually lager it. Meaning cold
storage. The longer a beer, (yes even an ale) lagers, the better it
will be.
Unless, of course, you are using priming sugar to carbonate. If that is
the case, holding it for a few weeks in the 60'sor low 70's could be
perfect to carbonate the beer. And then you will have the benefit of
the secondary fermentation mopping up any residual airs or diacetyl.
But trying to force carbonate a beer at 60+ degrees, post ferment
really makes no sense if you are shooting for a bright, clean, well
conditioned product.
>
>
> Its a good way to get more CO2 dissolved in the beer. Once I've done this,
> I know I can remove from the tank and leave to condition in the basement.
> I try not to tap the keg until its conditioned for 2-4 weeks.
>
Its kind of a waste of time and energy to try to force carbonate at
warm temperatures. And again, unless you are carbonating via priming
sugar, all conditioning should be done as cold as possible.
>
> But if I have two kegs in the kegerator already, I carbonate and condition
> in the basement on my second tank. Conditioning is more important to me
> than carbonating, cuz I know I can carbonate quickly if need be.
True. But I would still encourage lagering all your post fermentation
beers. The simple laws of physics tell us that particles drop out of
cold liquid faster than warm liquid. And the flavors will still mature
and marry. The goal of a post fermented beer, aside from proper
carbonation, should be a good flavor, and clarity... Free from yeast
(unless desired), protien or vegetative haze.
>
> --
But then again...thats just my 2 cents...
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 20:12:42
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On 26 Nov 2006 21:08:54 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>>
>> Beer conditions faster at warmer temps, and that's the temp in my basement.
>
> At 64F you could still be fermenting.
Not necessarily. I would assume that a brewer makes sure fermentation is
complete before they keg.
> This is a little higher than a
> diacetyl rest even. Once your diacetyl rest is over, beer should be
> kept as cold as possible to condition. This helps facilitate
> flocculaton of yeast and other suspended particles.
Settling/clearing is what the secondary is for. Yes, cold helps but it's
not necessary for that to occur. I don't think that's the same thing as
conditioning, although people use the term to mean different things.
> So while holding
> beer at 64 dgrees post ferment may 'age' a beer faster... to properly
> condition a beer you will want to actually lager it. Meaning cold
> storage. The longer a beer, (yes even an ale) lagers, the better it
> will be.
Not really. I see no reason that you have to condition at lager temps. By
conditioning, I'm not talking about secondary or lagering. I'm talking
about aging/maturation of the beer (blending of flavors, melowing of hops,
mouthfeel, etc). These changes are not really temp dependent, and will
occur more quickly at warmer temps. There are also many aging changes that
the yeast are responsible for, and yeast will be more active at warmer
temps.
The only real downside to conditioning the beer warm is that it can peak too
quickly and mature too much if you're not ready to drink it. How long that
takes has a lot to do with style as well as personal preference.
> Unless, of course, you are using priming sugar to carbonate. If that is
> the case, holding it for a few weeks in the 60'sor low 70's could be
> perfect to carbonate the beer. And then you will have the benefit of
> the secondary fermentation mopping up any residual airs or diacetyl.
>
> But trying to force carbonate a beer at 60+ degrees, post ferment
> really makes no sense if you are shooting for a bright, clean, well
> conditioned product.
There's nothing about conditioning in the keg post-fermentation that really
requires lager temps. I carbonate and condition/age beer at room temp (mid
60s) all the time. There's nothing wrong with this method. IMO, it makes
no sense to state that bright, clean, well conditioned beer is dependent
on cold temps.
John.
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 15:13:10
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
True...it will let in more CO2 after you shake it...for about five more
seconds before it tapers off again. But is the energy of standing
there and physically shaking the keg worth the extra amount of CO2 you
can eek in there for those few seconds? I guess thats up to you....And
hey, whatever works, right? I'd just as soon let the CO2 do all the
work.
I dont think shaking your keg is as significant as shaking an unopened
bottle of beer; because its far easier to release CO2 from suspension
in a small volume like a bottle, than it is to dissolve CO2 into a
larger volume like a keg.
The concept is the same. However the acts are not equally effective.
Bob F wrote:
> <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Shaking cornys isnt for me. I understand the thought behind it. But I
> > think the gains are fairly minimal for the amount of energy exerted.
> > Those cornys are capable of holding alot of pressure.
> >
>
> My regulator makes a certain amount of noise when CO2 passes
> through it. If I connect the CO2 to an uncarbonated corny, I hear
> a rush of gas for several seconds which graduly tapers off. If I
> then shake the top back and forth, I immediately hear the CO2 flow
> again. It clearly makes a significant difference. It is probably just
> as significant as shaking an opened bottle of beer is at letting
> CO2 out of the beer.
>
> Bob
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 19:07:55
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> True...it will let in more CO2 after you shake it...for about five more
> seconds before it tapers off again. But is the energy of standing
> there and physically shaking the keg worth the extra amount of CO2 you
> can eek in there for those few seconds? I guess thats up to you....And
> hey, whatever works, right? I'd just as soon let the CO2 do all the
> work.
Actually, you can simply put the keg on its side and roll it back and
forth rapidly for around two minutes under 30PSI (assuming the beer is
close to freezing) and generally, the beer will be correctly or slightly
under-carbonated. This method is somewhat sensitive to headspace in the
keg, and you may want to back off on the pressure for more lightly
carbonated styles -- but it works. If anything the beer might be
slightly under carbonated -- a few blasts in a couple of days of 30PSI
or so will generally even things out. I use a pressure gauge to test the
internal pressure of the keg once it has equalized.
Works well, takes a minimum of time and energy, albeit little practice.
>
> I dont think shaking your keg is as significant as shaking an unopened
> bottle of beer; because its far easier to release CO2 from suspension
> in a small volume like a bottle, than it is to dissolve CO2 into a
> larger volume like a keg.
>
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 22:18:18
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey666@666swampgas.666com >
wrote in message news:456a3a61$0$14724$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> > True...it will let in more CO2 after you shake it...for about five more
> > seconds before it tapers off again. But is the energy of standing
> > there and physically shaking the keg worth the extra amount of CO2 you
> > can eek in there for those few seconds? I guess thats up to you....And
> > hey, whatever works, right? I'd just as soon let the CO2 do all the
> > work.
>
> Actually, you can simply put the keg on its side and roll it back and
> forth rapidly for around two minutes under 30PSI (assuming the beer is
> close to freezing) and generally, the beer will be correctly or slightly
> under-carbonated.
Two minutes? Really? I guess I'll have to try it, but I find it very hard to
believe.
Bob
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 08:26:42
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Bob F wrote:
> "The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey666@666swampgas.666com>
> wrote in message news:456a3a61$0$14724$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> True...it will let in more CO2 after you shake it...for about five more
>>> seconds before it tapers off again. But is the energy of standing
>>> there and physically shaking the keg worth the extra amount of CO2 you
>>> can eek in there for those few seconds? I guess thats up to you....And
>>> hey, whatever works, right? I'd just as soon let the CO2 do all the
>>> work.
>> Actually, you can simply put the keg on its side and roll it back and
>> forth rapidly for around two minutes under 30PSI (assuming the beer is
>> close to freezing) and generally, the beer will be correctly or slightly
>> under-carbonated.
>
> Two minutes? Really? I guess I'll have to try it, but I find it very hard to
> believe.
Give it a try -- be sure the beer is as close to 32F as possible. Some
people put the keg in their laps to roll it, but I'm pretty sure this
will lower your sperm count in a big way. I just put it on the floor.
Give the pressure a day or so to equalize before trying the beer. If
it's undercarbonated, you can just hit it with another 30PSI or so and
give it a day (which is what I do) or you can do the rolling thing again
for up to a minute -- but you'll risk overcarbonating.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 05:53:14
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
> > Actually, you can simply put the keg on its side and roll it back and
> > forth rapidly for around two minutes under 30PSI (assuming the beer is
> > close to freezing) and generally, the beer will be correctly or slightly
> > under-carbonated.
> Two minutes? Really? I guess I'll have to try it, but I find it very hard to
> believe.
I chill to near freezing, then pressurize it to 30PSI and shake for a
100 count (probably about 2 minutes - 2 shakes per count - pretty
unscientific). To shake I put it on my lap and grab the top and bottom
and snap it forward/back - not too hard to do, but if I get tired of
it, I'll rock it from leg to leg as the other poster does. Once at 100,
I unhook the gas and leave it sit for a little while to calm down, then
vent it down and put it at serving pressure (12PSI or so). Work pretty
good for me, BUT I still very much prefer the taste of the beer after
it's been on constant serving pressure (so balanced out) for a week.
--Jeff
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 08:29:39
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Jeff wrote:
>>> Actually, you can simply put the keg on its side and roll it back and
>>> forth rapidly for around two minutes under 30PSI (assuming the beer is
>>> close to freezing) and generally, the beer will be correctly or slightly
>>> under-carbonated.
>> Two minutes? Really? I guess I'll have to try it, but I find it very hard to
>> believe.
>
> I chill to near freezing, then pressurize it to 30PSI and shake for a
> 100 count (probably about 2 minutes - 2 shakes per count - pretty
> unscientific). To shake I put it on my lap and grab the top and bottom
> and snap it forward/back - not too hard to do, but if I get tired of
> it, I'll rock it from leg to leg as the other poster does. Once at 100,
> I unhook the gas and leave it sit for a little while to calm down, then
> vent it down and put it at serving pressure (12PSI or so). Work pretty
> good for me, BUT I still very much prefer the taste of the beer after
> it's been on constant serving pressure (so balanced out) for a week.
Yeah -- I should add that you still need a week or so for things to
smooth out -- I guess this has to do with carbonic acid production --
plus possibly any other conditioning period that the beer might require.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 19:02:50
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:29:39 -0600, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> Yeah -- I should add that you still need a week or so for things to
> smooth out
That's why I don't really see any benefit to speeding up the carbonation via
shaking and/or high pressure methods. It takes a week for it to be "good"
anyway, why rush the carbonation? You might as well just let it take as
long for the carbonation to develop as it does for the beer to "mature".
I guess if you're really desperate to start drinking the beer, and don't
necessarily care as much about the quality, then it'd be useful to try and
carbonate quickly. I'd rather be patient though.
John.
|
| | | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 13:25:54
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:29:39 -0600, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com> wrote:
>> Yeah -- I should add that you still need a week or so for things to
>> smooth out
>
>
> That's why I don't really see any benefit to speeding up the carbonation via
> shaking and/or high pressure methods. It takes a week for it to be "good"
> anyway, why rush the carbonation? You might as well just let it take as
> long for the carbonation to develop as it does for the beer to "mature".
I actually do this because of the way I'm set up. For reasons that are
sort of involved I can't actually leave the pressure on a keg in the
serving freezer. I've been meaning to fix this (for other reasons), but
haven't gotten around to it.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 20:54:09
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:25:54 -0600, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> I actually do this because of the way I'm set up. For reasons that are
> sort of involved I can't actually leave the pressure on a keg in the
> serving freezer. I've been meaning to fix this (for other reasons), but
> haven't gotten around to it.
IMO, if you can set it up so that the CO2 can stay on all the time it makes
life much easier. Besides the carbonation thing, it makes dispensing the
keg a lot easier if you don't have to worry about periodically hitting the
keg with a shot of pressure.
John.
|
| | | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 11:19:55
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> That's why I don't really see any benefit to speeding up the carbonation via
> shaking and/or high pressure methods. It takes a week for it to be "good"
> anyway, why rush the carbonation? You might as well just let it take as
> long for the carbonation to develop as it does for the beer to "mature".
I have to say that *sometimes* it takes a while for the beerto be ready
anyway. But there are cases it's ready as soon as it's carbed.
> I guess if you're really desperate to start drinking the beer, and don't
> necessarily care as much about the quality, then it'd be useful to try and
> carbonate quickly. I'd rather be patient though.
Ooohhh, sweeping generalization! :)
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 13:27:10
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Denny Conn wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> That's why I don't really see any benefit to speeding up the carbonation via
>> shaking and/or high pressure methods. It takes a week for it to be "good"
>> anyway, why rush the carbonation? You might as well just let it take as
>> long for the carbonation to develop as it does for the beer to "mature".
>
> I have to say that *sometimes* it takes a while for the beerto be ready
> anyway. But there are cases it's ready as soon as it's carbed.
>
>> I guess if you're really desperate to start drinking the beer, and don't
>> necessarily care as much about the quality, then it'd be useful to try and
>> carbonate quickly. I'd rather be patient though.
>
>
> Ooohhh, sweeping generalization! :)
>
I know -- thems FIGHTI'N words!
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 20:50:12
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:19:55 -0800, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> That's why I don't really see any benefit to speeding up the carbonation via
>> shaking and/or high pressure methods. It takes a week for it to be "good"
>> anyway, why rush the carbonation? You might as well just let it take as
>> long for the carbonation to develop as it does for the beer to "mature".
>
> I have to say that *sometimes* it takes a while for the beerto be ready
> anyway. But there are cases it's ready as soon as it's carbed.
True, a lot of the aging time is based on style (and preference). I guess
I just view a week in the keg as the minimum aging time for the beers I
make.
>> I guess if you're really desperate to start drinking the beer, and don't
>> necessarily care as much about the quality, then it'd be useful to try and
>> carbonate quickly. I'd rather be patient though.
>
>
> Ooohhh, sweeping generalization! :)
I thought they were required for posting on here? ;)
Yeah, that probably came out a little more harsh sounding than I really
meant it.
John.
|
| |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 08:25:29
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Well if experience counts for anything. I have been head brewer at a 15
BBL brewery for six years now. I have made appx 200 thousand gallons of
beer in the past few years. And I have force carbonated many many kegs
of all sizes. And tanks via carbonation stone, closing the blowoff
early, krausening, inline transfer and by way of head pressure.
1. You are confusing contitioning with carbonating. If your beer is
young, it will probably take more than a week to really mature. During
which time, the maturity is irrespective of carbonation. If you want to
carbonate via head pressure for a week and let the beer partially
mature during that time. That is fine and dandy. But wasn't this thread
about how to rapidly force carbonate?
2. I said that at 64F you "could" be still fermenting. Not you "will"
still be fermenting. By this statement, I was impling that by storing
it warm the yeast will stay in suspension longer with no sugar left to
eat. This might be good if you need a diacetly rest. But after a few
days post ferment. You will want to get it as cold as possible, as
quick as possible, and get it of the old yeast and trub as fast as
possible. For optimum results, you will want to crash the temp and then
transfer. Otherwise you will be flirting with autolysis and off
flavors.
3. Proper carbonation has all to do with the volumes of CO2 dissolved
in the beer. Not acid. In order to rapidly abrosb into the beer the
liquid needs to be cold and the CO2 needs to contact the surface area
of the beer. Thats why shaking helps...a little. You expose more
surface area to the CO2 blanket. This is why forcing the CO2 through
the dip tube makes sense. The CO2 has to bubble up through the beer,
thus contacting more surface area. Otherwise it will just be forcing
its way down from the top. Both ways work. But one way is much quicker.
One way takes at least a week. One way takes two days.
4. Beer should always be conditioned cold and off its yeast and trub.
It is simply not good for the beer to be left on its yeast and trub.
especially at warm temperatures. Finish ferment, hit your target
gravity, get it cold, carbonate, let mature. Unless you are carbonating
via priming sugar...there is no other better way.
But then, thats why its a personal hobby. Do as you like, whatever
works. As they say, relax...have a homebrew.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 04:34:12
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
> There's very little difference between carbonating through the liquid dip
> tube versus through the gas dip tube. IMO, you might was well hook it
> up the "right" way instead of "backwards". That way you're sure that the gas
> line is above the level of beer in the keg. Any benefit you would get from
> hooking it up the other way is fairly insignificant.
I agree. And if the keg is carbonated and gets bumped for some reason,
the CO2 will come out of solution and the pressure in the keg will be
above the line pressure. I've gotten liquid in the gas lines enough to
know this to be true. Also, I felt there was a need to be concerned
about causing damage to the plastic gas-in connector in trying to fit
it to bev-out, which is a slightly different size.
I hate it when I get liquid in the gas-in line (I have one line that
way as I type).
--Jeff
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 08:46:09
From: Dan Logcher
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Jeff wrote:
>>There's very little difference between carbonating through the liquid dip
>>tube versus through the gas dip tube. IMO, you might was well hook it
>>up the "right" way instead of "backwards". That way you're sure that the gas
>>line is above the level of beer in the keg. Any benefit you would get from
>>hooking it up the other way is fairly insignificant.
>
> I agree. And if the keg is carbonated and gets bumped for some reason,
> the CO2 will come out of solution and the pressure in the keg will be
> above the line pressure. I've gotten liquid in the gas lines enough to
> know this to be true. Also, I felt there was a need to be concerned
> about causing damage to the plastic gas-in connector in trying to fit
> it to bev-out, which is a slightly different size.
All my lines are 1/4" MFL so I could actually switch to a liquid OUT disconnect
on my CO2 tank for carbonating. I just don't see much benefit from large
bubbles of CO2 coming up from the bottom. It would be better to attach a
carbonation stone to the gas IN dip tube.
> I hate it when I get liquid in the gas-in line (I have one line that
> way as I type).
Not so bad for me.. I just turn off the valve for that line, unscrew,
and clean. But it is a bit annoying.
--
Dan
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 21:04:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:46:09 -0500, <dlogcher*xspam*@comcast.net > wrote:
> All my lines are 1/4" MFL so I could actually switch to a liquid OUT disconnect
> on my CO2 tank for carbonating. I just don't see much benefit from large
> bubbles of CO2 coming up from the bottom. It would be better to attach a
> carbonation stone to the gas IN dip tube.
I don't think either really makes much difference. The vast majority of
the gas absorbtion occurs at the surface area in the head space. I don't
think running through the liquid dip tube or using a carbonation stone on
either dip tube really makes any major difference. The gas is going to bubble
right up to the headspace anyway. There may be a slight amount of gas
absorbtion that occurs as the bubbles are rising to the surface, but it's very
small.
IMO, carbonation stones are one of those things that sound like a really
cool idea, but don't really do much.
John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 13:45:10
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnemp9d3.cp3.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:46:09 -0500, <dlogcher*xspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
> > All my lines are 1/4" MFL so I could actually switch to a liquid OUT
disconnect
> > on my CO2 tank for carbonating. I just don't see much benefit from
large
> > bubbles of CO2 coming up from the bottom. It would be better to attach
a
> > carbonation stone to the gas IN dip tube.
>
> I don't think either really makes much difference. The vast majority of
> the gas absorbtion occurs at the surface area in the head space. I don't
> think running through the liquid dip tube or using a carbonation stone on
> either dip tube really makes any major difference. The gas is going to
bubble
> right up to the headspace anyway. There may be a slight amount of gas
> absorbtion that occurs as the bubbles are rising to the surface, but it's
very
> small.
>
> IMO, carbonation stones are one of those things that sound like a really
> cool idea, but don't really do much.
How about oxygenation stones then? It sure seems like they do good.
Bob
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:16:58
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:45:10 -0800, <bobnospam@gmail.com > wrote:
> How about oxygenation stones then? It sure seems like they do good.
They're a different thing. Yeah, those definitely work. The main
difference is that you constantly have a high flow of oxygen through
the stone that creates lots of turbulance in the beer. With the carbonation
stones, the relatively small headspace in a corny keg pressurizes with a small
amount of CO2 fairly quickly, and after that additional gas slowly bubbles in.
John.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 13:40:40
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Not to sound rude, but you couldnt be more wrong.
Try it sometime. Also, the gas from the bottom of the arm doesnt just
quickly bubble up and sit at the top. The keg quickly equalizes
pressure and goes into absorption phase. It absorbs much quicker when
the CO2 is introduced into the bottom of the keg than when it is only
introduced to the top.
Believe me. I have tried both ways....hundreds of times. And I know you
must be kidding about carbonation stones. I can perfectly carbonate my
tank of 500 gallons of beer in 30 minutes via a carbonation stone. It
breaks uo the CO2 into very small bubbles which are immedieately
absorbed by the beer.
>
> I don't think either really makes much difference. The vast majority of
> the gas absorbtion occurs at the surface area in the head space. I don't
> think running through the liquid dip tube or using a carbonation stone on
> either dip tube really makes any major difference. The gas is going to bubble
> right up to the headspace anyway. There may be a slight amount of gas
> absorbtion that occurs as the bubbles are rising to the surface, but it's very
> small.
>
> IMO, carbonation stones are one of those things that sound like a really
> cool idea, but don't really do much.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 04:21:20
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On 28 Nov 2006 13:40:40 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Believe me. I have tried both ways....hundreds of times. And I know you
> must be kidding about carbonation stones. I can perfectly carbonate my
> tank of 500 gallons of beer in 30 minutes via a carbonation stone. It
> breaks uo the CO2 into very small bubbles which are immedieately
> absorbed by the beer.
Are we discussing homebrew corny kegs, or commercial size batches? As
another poster mentioned, there are lots of instances were commercial brewing
practices do not translate to homebrewing. You're right, I have no experience
with doing it on a commercial scale, and do not know how that effects the
performance. I'm not sure commercial practices have much relevance to most
people on here though.
John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 08:25:10
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Well, I still fill cornys at by brewery They are handy to bring to
parties or events, or to experiment with...And I have force carbonated
several hundred of them several different ways. A CO2 stone would be
just as effective in a corny as it is in a 600 gallon tank. The stone
has the advantage of breaking the CO2 into very fine bubbles which is
more readily absorbed by the liquid. That principle would be consistent
on a three gallon tank or a three thousand gallon tank.
The reason I thought a CO2 stone would be a "little hoakey" in a corny
keg because the amount of time, work, and money to make one for a
little five gallon tank doesn't make alot of sense. Although, at
temp...with a CO2 stone, you could perfectly carbonate a corny in
minutes.
"I'm not sure commercial practices have much relevance to most
people on here though."
What, you guys aren't concerned with doing it right? ha ha...
Relax man, I'm not here to fight you...ten years ago, I learned alot at
RCB. There used to be a group of people I knew on here. I just got
broadband at home now and I haven't checked in for about seven years.
Looks like things have changed a bit....
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 13:40:40 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Believe me. I have tried both ways....hundreds of times. And I know you
> > must be kidding about carbonation stones. I can perfectly carbonate my
> > tank of 500 gallons of beer in 30 minutes via a carbonation stone. It
> > breaks uo the CO2 into very small bubbles which are immedieately
> > absorbed by the beer.
>
> Are we discussing homebrew corny kegs, or commercial size batches? As
> another poster mentioned, there are lots of instances were commercial brewing
> practices do not translate to homebrewing. You're right, I have no experience
> with doing it on a commercial scale, and do not know how that effects the
> performance. I'm not sure commercial practices have much relevance to most
> people on here though.
>
>
> John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 11:18:20
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
harvestwind_73@yahoo.com wrote:
> Well, I still fill cornys at by brewery They are handy to bring to
> parties or events, or to experiment with...And I have force carbonated
> several hundred of them several different ways. A CO2 stone would be
> just as effective in a corny as it is in a 600 gallon tank. The stone
> has the advantage of breaking the CO2 into very fine bubbles which is
> more readily absorbed by the liquid. That principle would be consistent
> on a three gallon tank or a three thousand gallon tank.
>
> The reason I thought a CO2 stone would be a "little hoakey" in a corny
> keg because the amount of time, work, and money to make one for a
> little five gallon tank doesn't make alot of sense. Although, at
> temp...with a CO2 stone, you could perfectly carbonate a corny in
> minutes.
Actually, you can get them for cornies at a number of HB places (I think
Williams Brewing among others sells them. You can either attach them to
a special long gas dip tube, or come up with some other arrangement to
get them from the short tube into the beer.
They do indeed work inside a couple of days (not minutes, tho). I have
one, but only ever used it a couple of times.
The main problem is that it's not a very good solution for people who
keep multiple beers on tap, as there's no good way to remove them from a
keg in use to use elsewhere. They also extend the gas dip tube to below
the level of the beer, which really means you'll want check valves
(which I don't have) to protect your manifold and tubing from beer
backing up in cases where the pressure in the keg would exceed the
pressure in the manifold. Of course in my case leaving the gas on for
long periods is problematic anyway.
Rolling the keg under 30 PSI is significantly simpler, and with a
pressure gauge and a little practice, you can usually hit your carb
level spot on. Don't know of a faster way to do it with cornies, anyway.
Obviously this won't scale up so well to 300 gallons...
>
> "I'm not sure commercial practices have much relevance to most
> people on here though."
>
> What, you guys aren't concerned with doing it right? ha ha...
>
> Relax man, I'm not here to fight you...ten years ago, I learned alot at
> RCB. There used to be a group of people I knew on here. I just got
> broadband at home now and I haven't checked in for about seven years.
> Looks like things have changed a bit....
You obviously mean to say we're far more knowledgeable, better-looking
and generally more awesome than you remember.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
|
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 17:06:10
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
On 29 Nov 2006 08:25:10 -0800, <harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Well, I still fill cornys at by brewery They are handy to bring to
> parties or events, or to experiment with...And I have force carbonated
> several hundred of them several different ways. A CO2 stone would be
> just as effective in a corny as it is in a 600 gallon tank. The stone
> has the advantage of breaking the CO2 into very fine bubbles which is
> more readily absorbed by the liquid.
You're not going to get significant absorbtion in the amount of time it
takes for a bubble to rise from the bottom of a corny keg up to the top.
Obviously we disagree on this point.
> That principle would be consistent
> on a three gallon tank or a three thousand gallon tank.
There are huge differences between a 3 gallon tank and a 3000 gallon one
that would have drastic effects on the performance of a carbonation stone.
Just for starters, the amount of beer the bubbles travel through and the
time it takes them to reach the headspace are going to be vastly
different. Both of those make a big difference in how much CO2 gets
absorbed. Additionally, I would guess that the amount of time the gas
runs at a high flow rate before pressurizing the vastly different sized
headspaces and reducing the flow to a trickle would also be very
different in a tank 1000X the size.
> "I'm not sure commercial practices have much relevance to most
> people on here though."
>
> What, you guys aren't concerned with doing it right? ha ha...
I know you're joking, but assuming a pro brewer knows more than a homebrewer
is probably a fairly dangerous generalization. I've seen very knowledgable
people in both groups, and I've also seen examples from both who only know
"follow step A, then step B, then step C... and you'll get good beer" without
really knowing how or why it works. There also tends to be a lot of
"tradition" in brewing (at both levels) where brewers do things a certain way
because "that's how it's always been done", without knowing if it even works
or makes any difference. They tend to get very defensive when someone
questions it.
IMO, someone who says they're a professional (in whatever field) and then
immediately expects everyone to take their word as gospel is being a little
insulting.
> Relax man, I'm not here to fight you...
I certainly don't take it that way. We just disagree, it's not a big deal.
John.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 17:38:58
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Thanks Bob.
> >
>
> I just thought I'd throw in that I really appreciate your perspective
> in the discussion.
>
> Bob
|
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 11:44:16
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
> IMO, someone who says they're a professional (in whatever field) and then
> immediately expects everyone to take their word as gospel is being a little
> insulting.
I dont expect you to take my advice as gospel. No worshipping is
required. I would, however, be more inclined to agree with you if you
were right.
But whatever man, do what works for you. Do what you like to do...its a
hobby, it should be fun. I was just offering advice.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 13:36:10
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
<harvestwind_73@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1164829456.932174.53990@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > IMO, someone who says they're a professional (in whatever field) and
then
> > immediately expects everyone to take their word as gospel is being a
little
> > insulting.
>
> I dont expect you to take my advice as gospel. No worshipping is
> required. I would, however, be more inclined to agree with you if you
> were right.
>
> But whatever man, do what works for you. Do what you like to do...its a
> hobby, it should be fun. I was just offering advice.
>
I just thought I'd throw in that I really appreciate your perspective
in the discussion.
Bob
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 11:40:00
From:
Subject: Re: Force carbonation in a Corny Keg?
|
Of course I was joking. I know homebrewers here who have taken every
beer style analysys course there exists and know insane amounts about
beer. But then, every homebrewer I know also listenes to advice and is
eager to glean knowledge form whomever they can.
The thing about carb stones, they dont rely on headspace. The carb
stones I have here....sintered stainless steel could carbonate a corny
keg in 3 minutes at temp ant 30 PSI. I find it hard to believe that
any well made CO2 stone would take days to carbonate five gallons of
beer. What temp and pressure do you have it at? Try it at 32F at 30
PSI. It should immediately embed the CO2 into the liquid.
I know you guys dont have access to a Zahm and Nagel CO2 gauge, but I'd
wager anything that you could carbonate a corny, with a good stone,
perfectly within five minutes...so that it tests at the proper VOLS on
the Zahm & Nagel.
I still say the easiest way for a homebrewer to carbonate a corny keg
is at 30 PSI, at temp, through the dip tube for 24 hours. You can
disagree....but I have done it both ways....many, many, many times.
Give it a try...then we can argue some more ;)
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