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Main
Date: 07 Sep 2006 08:49:43
From: neal
Subject: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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Hey all,
I have some info from the VLB in Berlin on their 'Rh' strain, which
is the one produced by Fermentis as SafLager S-23.
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Pitching temperature: 7 - 10 =B0C (45F to 50F)
Fermentation temperature: 10 - 15 =B0C (50F to 59F)
The strain "Rh" is a bottom fermenting flocculating yeast.
Characteristically of this yeast is its high fermentation rate until
final attenuation. On the premises of a well aerated wort, a sufficient
supplying with amino nitrogen and minerals, and a concentration of
15-20 x 106 cells/ml at pitching, a quick propagation at the beginning
of the fermentation and a high concentration of yeast cells in suspense
during the whole fermentation is achieved. Flocculation happens towards
the end of the fermentation and is nearly complete. During fermentation
the formation of the diacetyl precursor is low; it is degraded at the
end of the fermentation. This strain is suitable for using in
fermentation (cylindroconical) tanks. Changes in fermentation may occur
on variations of the applied technology (raw materials, process
parameters, etc.).
-----------
Note the fermentation temp is above 50F. Denny & Dan Listerman: What
fermentation temp were you using?
Has anyone had good results with this yeast when fermented at mid 50s
F?
Their info does partially square with that provided by Fermentis:
"80 to 120 g/hl for pitching at 12C - 15C. Increase dosage for
pitching below 12C, up to 200 to
300 g/hl at 9C."
"Recommended fermentation temperature: 9C - 15C, ideally 12C."
The Professor at the VLB insists they have had no complaints from the
many clients using this yeast when the yeast is used at the recommened
temps and proper proceedures are used.
One conclusion is that the 'classic' lager yeast temp of 48F as listed
in Noonan's book and many others probably just doesn't apply to this
yeast.
The Prof is going to report back with some technical references on the
yeast (if he can find any) and possibly contact info for a brewer.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 09:54:23
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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neal wrote:
> Note the fermentation temp is above 50F. Denny & Dan Listerman: What
> fermentation temp were you using?
IIRC, I was at 48-52..a bit low, but not a lot. To me, it had what
George Fix referred to as the "classic Euro tutti frutti" lager wuality.
He also sadi that's why he avoided classic Euro lager yeasts! This
was in his VMO book. The beer I made was SO weird I sent some to John
Palmer for an opinion. He said that it tasted like Bartles and Jaymes
Passion fruit wine cooler and I shoud try it on college girls! :)
--------- >Denny
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:02:15
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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Denny Conn <denny@projectoneaudio.com > wrote:
> was in his VMO book. The beer I made was SO weird I sent some to John
> Palmer for an opinion. He said that it tasted like Bartles and Jaymes
> Passion fruit wine cooler and I shoud try it on college girls! :)
>
> --------->Denny
Girls Gone Wild of Eugene OR ... featuring Denny Conn.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:28:17
From: rjwhite6
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:54:23 -0700, Denny Conn
<denny@projectoneaudio.com > wrote:
>The beer I made was SO weird I sent some to John
>Palmer for an opinion. He said that it tasted like Bartles and Jaymes
>Passion fruit wine cooler and I shoud try it on college girls! :)
>
> --------->Denny
LMAO!
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 14:19:15
From: neal
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:05:50 -0700, <denny@projectoneaudio.com> wrote:
> > neal wrote:
> >
> >> The prof answered a follow up question I had and strongly recommened
> >> that the pitching temp of this yeast be BELOW the fermentation temp
> >> range.
> >
> >
> > I do that for every brew, ale or lager.
>
> You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
> pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
> serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
That's correct. Damn if I know what purpose it serves other than
Denny's comment about the jump in temp due to activity when the
population of yeast gets large enough.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 14:17:42
From: neal
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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Denny Conn wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>
> > You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
> > pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
> > serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
>
> Yep...that accounts for the heat generated by fermnentation. I shoot
> for about 5F below fermentation temp. when I pitch.
How are you getting your wort down to lager temps to pitch?
Even in Montana with icy groundwater I can't get my wort below 60F with
a copper-tubing immersion chiller... much less to low 50s. I just
pitch at whatever temp I can get it to, then drop it into the
temp-controlled freezer.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 16:40:11
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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neal wrote:
> Denny Conn wrote:
>
>>John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
>>>pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
>>>serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
>>
>>Yep...that accounts for the heat generated by fermnentation. I shoot
>>for about 5F below fermentation temp. when I pitch.
>
>
> How are you getting your wort down to lager temps to pitch?
>
> Even in Montana with icy groundwater I can't get my wort below 60F with
> a copper-tubing immersion chiller... much less to low 50s. I just
> pitch at whatever temp I can get it to, then drop it into the
> temp-controlled freezer.
>
Use a cheap submersible pump and a tub full of ice water to recirc ice
water through your IC. Start with groundwater, then switch to ice. Even
in the dead of summer doen here in South Louisiana I can get into the
mid-40s this way.
You can also settle out overnight in your fridge. Provided you're
careful with your sanitation and pitch an adequate starter, this should
cause no problems. Just rack off the break the next day into your
fermenter. I acyually use a bucket with a spigot as a settling tank when
I go that route.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 10:49:15
From: neal
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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I remember reading the same thing. What is frustrating about the VMO
book and the Noonan book is that they both talk about 'estery' and
'neutral' lager yeasts, but give no real hint as to what avail yeasts
fall into that category.
Example: Does the 2124/WLP830/34-70 yeast 'estery' or 'neutral'? The
Copenhagen/Danish yeast? The Czech Urquell Yeast? The American
Buswsier yeast?
These are all very well used yeasts, and certainly avail when the books
were written.
Denny Conn wrote:
> neal wrote:
>
> > Note the fermentation temp is above 50F. Denny & Dan Listerman: What
> > fermentation temp were you using?
>
> IIRC, I was at 48-52..a bit low, but not a lot. To me, it had what
> George Fix referred to as the "classic Euro tutti frutti" lager wuality.
> He also sadi that's why he avoided classic Euro lager yeasts! This
> was in his VMO book. The beer I made was SO weird I sent some to John
> Palmer for an opinion. He said that it tasted like Bartles and Jaymes
> Passion fruit wine cooler and I shoud try it on college girls! :)
>
> --------->Denny
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 10:45:33
From: neal
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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The prof answered a follow up question I had and strongly recommened
that the pitching temp of this yeast be BELOW the fermentation temp
range.
Pitching in the stated fermentation range is fine, as long as the
fermentation range you use is above the pitching temp.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 12:05:50
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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neal wrote:
> The prof answered a follow up question I had and strongly recommened
> that the pitching temp of this yeast be BELOW the fermentation temp
> range.
I do that for every brew, ale or lager.
---------- >Denny
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 19:35:17
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:05:50 -0700, <denny@projectoneaudio.com > wrote:
> neal wrote:
>
>> The prof answered a follow up question I had and strongly recommened
>> that the pitching temp of this yeast be BELOW the fermentation temp
>> range.
>
>
> I do that for every brew, ale or lager.
You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
John.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 13:01:55
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
> pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
> serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
Yep...that accounts for the heat generated by fermnentation. I shoot
for about 5F below fermentation temp. when I pitch.
------------ >Denny
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 20:11:49
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:01:55 -0700, <denny@projectoneaudio.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>
>> You specifically cool the wort below the intended fermentation temp,
>> pitch, and then let it warm up? I'm curious as to what purpose that
>> serves vs pitching at your fermentation temp, or am I not understanding?
>
> Yep...that accounts for the heat generated by fermnentation. I shoot
> for about 5F below fermentation temp. when I pitch.
I usually think of it in terms of cooling down to the ambient fermentation
temp before pitching, as opposed to the actual wort temp during fermentation.
I guess we're doing the same thing.
John.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:48:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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On 7 Sep 2006 10:45:33 -0700, <nrichter@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> The prof answered a follow up question I had and strongly recommened
> that the pitching temp of this yeast be BELOW the fermentation temp
> range.
>
> Pitching in the stated fermentation range is fine, as long as the
> fermentation range you use is above the pitching temp.
Did they explain why?
John.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 08:54:40
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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neal wrote:
> How are you getting your wort down to lager temps to pitch?
>
> Even in Montana with icy groundwater I can't get my wort below 60F with
> a copper-tubing immersion chiller... much less to low 50s. I just
> pitch at whatever temp I can get it to, then drop it into the
> temp-controlled freezer.
I only brew lagers in the winter, and my well water is easily cold
enough at that time to chill the wort that low. It does take a while,
but I can wait....
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 15:48:15
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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"Denny Conn" <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote in message
>
> I only brew lagers in the winter, and my well water is easily cold
> enough at that time to chill the wort that low. It does take a while,
> but I can wait....
You must have a good well to use it for chilling. And I wouldn't think the
temp would change that much from summer to winter.
Mark R
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 08:53:57
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Follow up on Saflager S-23 - info from Germany
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Mark R wrote:
> You must have a good well to use it for chilling. And I wouldn't think the
> temp would change that much from summer to winter.
Surprisingly, it does. Summer water temps are in the upper 50s/low
60s. Winter temps are more in the low 40s.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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