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Date: 11 Sep 2006 04:53:02
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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Following on from the thread 'FWH Extract brews' I have a couple of
questions.
Firstly, I have tried this on a few occasions and the results have been
quite stunning, especially with noble hops.
But, do you still get the same level of bitterness from the hops as you
would with a normal 60min addition?
Also, will the flavour remain if I remove the hops before I start the boil.
Has anyone really experimented with first wort hopping such as FWH only, FWH
plus additions etc. and any other useful information.
Personally, I want to try FWH, removing the hops before the boil and
bittering with hop extract, with no further hop additions.
SteveW (in Aus)
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:12:14
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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Steve/Aus wrote:
>
> Following on from the thread 'FWH Extract brews' I have a couple of
> questions.
>
> Firstly, I have tried this on a few occasions and the results have been
> quite stunning, especially with noble hops.
>
> But, do you still get the same level of bitterness from the hops as you
> would with a normal 60min addition?
No, you don't. To my tatsebuds, it seems the bittering is equivalent to
a 20 min. addition.
> Also, will the flavour remain if I remove the hops before I start the boil.
No, you won't...you need to leave them in.
> Has anyone really experimented with first wort hopping such as FWH only, FWH
> plus additions etc. and any other useful information.
Yes, I've done at least 5 batches that were all FWH and sometimes
dryhops. I've used Columbus, Galcier, Santiam, and a couple other hops
I can't recall at the moment.
> Personally, I want to try FWH, removing the hops before the boil and
> bittering with hop extract, with no further hop additions.
Why do you want to do that way? What do you hope to accomplish?
--------------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 23:50:28
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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"Denny Conn" <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote in message
news:45058ADE.DBBC6BD4@ci.eugene.or.us...
> Steve/Aus wrote:
>> Personally, I want to try FWH, removing the hops before the boil and
>> bittering with hop extract, with no further hop additions.
>
> Why do you want to do that way? What do you hope to accomplish?
>
> --------------->Denny
The reason is over the last year I have been exploring unwanted flavours in
light style lagers & pilsners. I have managed to produce these styles with
no off flavours but only with low levels of bittering.
I have produced three lagers of late with no bittering hop additions. One
had a very late (5min) addition and the other two had no hop additions at
all. The two without hops were fermented and lagered for a few weeks and
exhibited absolutely no unwanted flavours. All three were later bittered
with hop extract mixed with a little vodka.
The one with the late hop addition exhibited a slight unwanted flavour that
eventually matured out.
Although these experiments are far from conclusive at this stage, I do
believe that hops can add unwanted flavours to light style beers where there
is no place for off-tastes to bury themselves.
I have another two lagers on the go as I continue with this experiment.
I have read sketchy info regarding vegetable-like tastes from the hop petals
as well as tannin extraction.
I note that beers like Bittburger use hops and hop extract and I dare say
that many more commercial breweries do as well. The reasons we can only
guess at, but a cleaner finish and shorter maturation times would no doubt
be close to the top of the list.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 13 Sep 2006 09:58:45
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> The reason is over the last year I have been exploring unwanted flavours in
> light style lagers & pilsners. I have managed to produce these styles with
> no off flavours but only with low levels of bittering.
> I have produced three lagers of late with no bittering hop additions. One
> had a very late (5min) addition and the other two had no hop additions at
> all. The two without hops were fermented and lagered for a few weeks and
> exhibited absolutely no unwanted flavours. All three were later bittered
> with hop extract mixed with a little vodka.
> The one with the late hop addition exhibited a slight unwanted flavour that
> eventually matured out.
> Although these experiments are far from conclusive at this stage, I do
> believe that hops can add unwanted flavours to light style beers where there
> is no place for off-tastes to bury themselves.
> I have another two lagers on the go as I continue with this experiment.
> I have read sketchy info regarding vegetable-like tastes from the hop petals
> as well as tannin extraction.
> I note that beers like Bittburger use hops and hop extract and I dare say
> that many more commercial breweries do as well. The reasons we can only
> guess at, but a cleaner finish and shorter maturation times would no doubt
> be close to the top of the list.
> Steve W (in Aus)
Very interesting. I have to admit that I've never run inot that
problem, but about the lightest lager I make is German pils, where I'm
going for a very upfront hop character.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 15 Sep 2006 17:18:39
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> "Denny Conn" <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote in message
> The reason is over the last year I have been exploring unwanted flavours in
> light style lagers & pilsners. I have managed to produce these styles with
> no off flavours but only with low levels of bittering.
Let's compare notes then. I've been trying to make a dry, light lager
for awhile. My latest batch has used some homemade corn malt, and was
bittered a little more than my last batch. The real test for this beer
is if the girlfriend likes it. It could have been more bitter last time
(~12 IBU) and this time it was perhaps too bitter or hoppy (~20 IBU). I
didn't FWH either time.
This batch hasn't carbonated as well. It was my first experience with
kegging, and my first keg had a chip in the out valve. This caused all
beer passing through it to turn to foam, and I think it sucked out all
the CO2 in the process. When I bottled the remains, it was very fizzy
coming out of the siphon. I think the low carbonation in the class made
the beer seem more bitter; it would have probably been refreshing had it
been in a fizzy beer.
My second keg dispenses very well, but isn't fully carbonated yet. I
can update when I think it's ready.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 15:07:27
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:53:02 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>
> Following on from the thread 'FWH Extract brews' I have a couple of
> questions.
>
> Firstly, I have tried this on a few occasions and the results have been
> quite stunning, especially with noble hops.
>
> But, do you still get the same level of bitterness from the hops as you
> would with a normal 60min addition?
You do get bitterness from the FWH, but it's not the same as you get from
a normal 60 minute addition. Various sources give different estimates, but
the most common one I've seen is that FWH give a bitterness contribution
equivalent to a 20 minute addition.
> Also, will the flavour remain if I remove the hops before I start the boil.
I've never tried it, but I would guess that the flavor would remain. You
will not get much bitterness from them though.
> Has anyone really experimented with first wort hopping such as FWH only, FWH
> plus additions etc. and any other useful information.
I've never tried FWH only, but I do use it all the time in my house IPA. I
basically do FWH and then a bitterness addition only. Optionally followed
by dry hopping in the secondary if I'm in the mood.
> Personally, I want to try FWH, removing the hops before the boil and
> bittering with hop extract, with no further hop additions.
That would probably work fine, but just out of curiosity why do you want to
remove them before the boil?
John.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 21:03:55
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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From what I've read, you don't want to remove the hops before the boil.
Appararently, the hops serve as some type of "nucleation" site for hot
break, thus taking more of the proteins out of your wort.
"Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote in message
news:OY5Ng.27027$rP1.10082@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> Following on from the thread 'FWH Extract brews' I have a couple of
> questions.
>
> Firstly, I have tried this on a few occasions and the results have been
> quite stunning, especially with noble hops.
>
> But, do you still get the same level of bitterness from the hops as you
> would with a normal 60min addition?
> Also, will the flavour remain if I remove the hops before I start the
> boil.
>
> Has anyone really experimented with first wort hopping such as FWH only,
> FWH plus additions etc. and any other useful information.
>
> Personally, I want to try FWH, removing the hops before the boil and
> bittering with hop extract, with no further hop additions.
>
> SteveW (in Aus)
>
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 14:51:03
From: Bill Riel
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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In article <%akNg.2266$Rw2.1455@trnddc02 >, nasacpa@verizon.net says...
> From what I've read, you don't want to remove the hops before the boil.
> Appararently, the hops serve as some type of "nucleation" site for hot
> break, thus taking more of the proteins out of your wort.
Indeed - one thing I observe when I fwh is that there is much lower
probability of boil over at hot break.
--
Bill
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 22:29:22
From: Brian Bartz
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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This is true! The other thing that will work are glass marbles...just like
the ones kids play with. Apparently, they're tempered, and so won't
shatter. They act as nucleation sites, and so help to prevent boilovers.
"Bill Riel" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:MPG.1f6f7a1eb62b25a1989685@news.individual.net...
> In article <%akNg.2266$Rw2.1455@trnddc02>, nasacpa@verizon.net says...
>> From what I've read, you don't want to remove the hops before the boil.
>> Appararently, the hops serve as some type of "nucleation" site for hot
>> break, thus taking more of the proteins out of your wort.
>
> Indeed - one thing I observe when I fwh is that there is much lower
> probability of boil over at hot break.
>
> --
> Bill
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Date: 15 Sep 2006 11:47:11
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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"brian@yahoo.com" wrote:
> If FWH results in the flavor and bittering of a 20 minute addition,
> then what is the difference between FWH and a 20 min addition? Is
> there more flavor from the FWH? Id the flavor different? Is the
> bitterness different?
>
> I have absolutely 0 experience with FWH, just looking to get some info.
To me, it's more "upfront" flavor and "smoother" (there's that word
again!) than a 20 min. addition. I also find the bittering smoother.
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 15 Sep 2006 11:32:39
From: brian@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Steve/Aus wrote:
> > "Denny Conn" <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote in message
> > The reason is over the last year I have been exploring unwanted flavours in
> > light style lagers & pilsners. I have managed to produce these styles with
> > no off flavours but only with low levels of bittering.
>
> Let's compare notes then. I've been trying to make a dry, light lager
> for awhile. My latest batch has used some homemade corn malt, and was
> bittered a little more than my last batch. The real test for this beer
> is if the girlfriend likes it. It could have been more bitter last time
> (~12 IBU) and this time it was perhaps too bitter or hoppy (~20 IBU). I
> didn't FWH either time.
>
> This batch hasn't carbonated as well. It was my first experience with
> kegging, and my first keg had a chip in the out valve. This caused all
> beer passing through it to turn to foam, and I think it sucked out all
> the CO2 in the process. When I bottled the remains, it was very fizzy
> coming out of the siphon. I think the low carbonation in the class made
> the beer seem more bitter; it would have probably been refreshing had it
> been in a fizzy beer.
>
> My second keg dispenses very well, but isn't fully carbonated yet. I
> can update when I think it's ready.
If FWH results in the flavor and bittering of a 20 minute addition,
then what is the difference between FWH and a 20 min addition? Is
there more flavor from the FWH? Id the flavor different? Is the
bitterness different?
I have absolutely 0 experience with FWH, just looking to get some info.
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Date: 15 Sep 2006 19:05:05
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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On 15 Sep 2006 11:32:39 -0700, <brian.sico@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> If FWH results in the flavor and bittering of a 20 minute addition,
> then what is the difference between FWH and a 20 min addition?
Only the bitterness is the same as a 20 minute addition. The flavor is much
more intense than a 20 minute addition, which is the reason for FWHing.
John.
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 06:26:33
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> Only the bitterness is the same as a 20 minute addition. The flavor is much
> more intense than a 20 minute addition, which is the reason for FWHing.
So if I was Saaz-crazy, and my favorite variety was 3.3%-3.6% AA, I
could stretch out less hops with more at 60 minutes, and just FWH a
small amount to get a flavor addition? To be more clear, is there a
method for using FWH to use less hops for flavor overall?
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:25:50
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping - more mystery
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On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:26:33 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> Only the bitterness is the same as a 20 minute addition. The flavor is much
>> more intense than a 20 minute addition, which is the reason for FWHing.
>
> So if I was Saaz-crazy, and my favorite variety was 3.3%-3.6% AA, I
> could stretch out less hops with more at 60 minutes, and just FWH a
> small amount to get a flavor addition? To be more clear, is there a
> method for using FWH to use less hops for flavor overall?
You could probably do it that way. Generally I FWH beers because I want a
lot of flavor (IPAs, etc). However, you could probably aim for the same
total flavor as a traditional 15 minute flavor addition, but use FWHing in
order to cut back on the amount. You'll probably have to experiment some
in order to find out how much to use in order to get an equivalent effect.
John.
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