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Date: 19 Jun 2006 04:26:25
From: QD Steve
Subject: Extra Dy Beer
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Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures and
is bone dry. Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness. (1) Mash at
low to medium temperatures. (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice
are mainly used in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here. (3) Use a
Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Steve W (in Aus)
(I must admit though, when it's Plus Forty degrees C and you've just come in
from sweating your bollocks off pandering to the Mrs whims in the backyard,
these dry beers do hit the spot well)
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Date: 18 Jun 2006 21:33:35
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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QD Steve wrote:
> (3) Use a
> Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
> additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
I forgot to add... A high alcohol tolerance does not necessarily imply
a high attenuation. I have no experience using champagne yeast to
ferment beer, but just because it is tolerant of high alcohol doesn't
mean it will be able to ferment the particular sugars found in wort. It
might work fine (if you discount the bizarre flavor characteristics)
but that can't really be inferred from its alcohol tolerance.
Scott
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Date: 18 Jun 2006 21:30:16
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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QD Steve wrote:
> Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
> fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures and
> is bone dry. Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness. (1) Mash at
> low to medium temperatures. (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice
> are mainly used in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here. (3) Use a
> Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
> additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Dilution, but this dilutes the alcohol as well... That could be
corrected by addition of food-grade ethanol (Everclear).
Scott
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 04:46:49
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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Scott L <scott-sp02@neuralnw.com > wrote:
> QD Steve wrote:
>> Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
>> fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures and
>> is bone dry. Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
>> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
>> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness. (1) Mash at
>> low to medium temperatures. (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice
>> are mainly used in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here. (3) Use a
>> Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
>> additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
>> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
> Dilution, but this dilutes the alcohol as well... That could be
> corrected by addition of food-grade ethanol (Everclear).
And that would make it 'fortified beer' LoL
Dick
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 05:10:20
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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QD Steve <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
> Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
> fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures
> and is bone dry.
This is sad, but that's what marketing will do to the masses.
> Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
I agree, but you will need people to willing to drink it.
> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness.
> (1) Mash at low to medium temperatures.
What do you mean by low to medium temperatures? The only range
I know is 149F to 158F (65C to 70). What are you expecting a
low temp (65C) mash to do for your wort.
> (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice are mainly used
> in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here.
When making swill for my friends, I use rice solids because they
don't go into the mash - just added to the boil! Admittedly cane
sugar is less expensive, obviously has more sugar content, and
thins out anything.
> (3) Use a Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers
> yeast.
I don't know. I'm primarily a Mead guy so I use those yeasts.
IMO Beano (mentioned below) will thin your brew out without a
risk of wine yeast flavor machinations. If you do use a wine
yeast, my suggestion is Lalvin EC-1118 or Lalvin K1V-1116.
> (4) Use an additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
Beano sounds great for this one.
> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Beano will really do the job!
> (I must admit though, when it's Plus Forty degrees C and you've
> just come in from sweating your bollocks off pandering to the
> Mrs whims in the backyard, these dry beers do hit the spot well)
So does Kool-Aid spiked with vodka :) I once wrote a recipe for
a qick, cheap alcoholic drink called Chateau Trailer Park.
Google for it. If you can't find it, I'll send you a copy.
Dick
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 15:47:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:10:20 -0000, <rdadams@smart.net > wrote:
>> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness.
>> (1) Mash at low to medium temperatures.
>
> What do you mean by low to medium temperatures? The only range
> I know is 149F to 158F (65C to 70). What are you expecting a
> low temp (65C) mash to do for your wort.
Low temp mashes make the wort more attenuative.
John.
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 05:46:21
From: QD Steve
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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"Dick Adams" <rdadams@smart.net > wrote in message
news:129ccds3tb1rs1f@corp.supernews.com...
> QD Steve <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
>
>> Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
>> fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures
>> and is bone dry.
>
> This is sad, but that's what marketing will do to the masses.
Indeed, it's very sad but what can ya do.
>> Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
>> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
>
> I agree, but you will need people to willing to drink it.
It doesn't matter, it's a challange and like it or not the brewers skills in
making this stuff must be applauded.
>> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness.
>> (1) Mash at low to medium temperatures.
>
> What do you mean by low to medium temperatures? The only range
> I know is 149F to 158F (65C to 70). What are you expecting a
> low temp (65C) mash to do for your wort.
To be more precise, mash at 63C for 1 hour and increase the temp to to 68C
for the last hour to help reduce dextrins to the lowest possible level
>> (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice are mainly used
>> in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here.
>
> When making swill for my friends, I use rice solids because they
> don't go into the mash - just added to the boil! Admittedly cane
> sugar is less expensive, obviously has more sugar content, and
> thins out anything.
Rice solids are not so easy to come by here but, we're awash with sugar so,
sugar it is.
>> (3) Use a Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers
>> yeast.
>
> I don't know. I'm primarily a Mead guy so I use those yeasts.
> IMO Beano (mentioned below) will thin your brew out without a
> risk of wine yeast flavor machinations. If you do use a wine
> yeast, my suggestion is Lalvin EC-1118 or Lalvin K1V-1116.
I will keep that in mind, thanks for the advice.
>> (4) Use an additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
>
> Beano sounds great for this one.
>
>> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
>
> Beano will really do the job!
Can't get Beano here but I might be able to find some sort of equivilent.
I'll check the health food stores
>> (I must admit though, when it's Plus Forty degrees C and you've
>> just come in from sweating your bollocks off pandering to the
>> Mrs whims in the backyard, these dry beers do hit the spot well)
>
> So does Kool-Aid spiked with vodka :) I once wrote a recipe for
> a qick, cheap alcoholic drink called Chateau Trailer Park.
> Google for it. If you can't find it, I'll send you a copy.
>
> Dick
Thanks, if I want something cheap and alcoholic I'll go Chateau Cardboard
which IS dirt cheap.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 17:24:03
From: Scott L
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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QD Steve wrote:
> >Personally
> >I'd spend my time and effort on making good beer, and just go out and buy
> >the cheap stuff if I really wanted to drink it.
>
> I tend to agree with you John, but the challange to make this style is too
> strong. I've just got have a go. As bland as this beer may be, I still 'tip
> my hat' to the brewers skills in making it.
As I say, it takes real skill to start with malt, hops, and yeast and
end up with something with hardly any flavor at all! And to keep the
character of that "non-flavor" as consistent as possible from batch to
batch. What the megabrewers are doing is by no means easy.
Scott
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 19:01:16
From: David Edge
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 04:26:25 GMT, "QD Steve"
<adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Suggest thin mash will encourage beta amylase as will low mash pH, ie
circa pH5.
David Edge, Derby
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 23:51:21
From: QD Steve
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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"David Edge" <david.j.edge@ntlworld.com > wrote in message
news:s5td921hhsnud14h5tjg0a66qau60n43io@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 04:26:25 GMT, "QD Steve"
> <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
>
>>Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
>
> Suggest thin mash will encourage beta amylase as will low mash pH, ie
> circa pH5.
>
> David Edge, Derby
Yes, I already acidify my sparge water with lagers and it does make a
difference, mainly with tannins though.
> Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
>Why?
At this point in time, it is being sold on 'special' pub taps, the ones
reserved for premium beers and it's more expensive than the usual swill.
Same with case beer, a case of this is more expensive. The trendies drink it
a bit but generally most drinkers stick to their 'usual'.
> IMO, just go with a neutral ale yeast.
This beer is very definitely a lager so an ale yeast is not appropriate. I
will take your advice and avoid wine strains. I've got a Wyeast Danish
strain that might fit the bill nicely. Anyway, I plan to use pils malt,
sugar, a long 2 step mash schedule (63C & 67C), short boil, say 45-60mins,
sugar added at beginning of boil and hopping with hop extract at racking
time to about 12IBU. (hop extract is very neutral bittering). I will floc
the wort with Irish Moss - twice as much as usual, and floc the finished
beer, probably with gelatine.
>Personally
>I'd spend my time and effort on making good beer, and just go out and buy
>the cheap stuff if I really wanted to drink it.
I tend to agree with you John, but the challange to make this style is too
strong. I've just got have a go. As bland as this beer may be, I still 'tip
my hat' to the brewers skills in making it. As you recommend to new brewers
to make a stout, porter or PA because these styles can hide faults, the
opposite is true with this dry lager style. It's a good beer to make to
improve brewing skills.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 13:50:52
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:21 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
> I tend to agree with you John, but the challange to make this style is too
> strong. I've just got have a go. As bland as this beer may be, I still 'tip
> my hat' to the brewers skills in making it. As you recommend to new brewers
> to make a stout, porter or PA because these styles can hide faults, the
> opposite is true with this dry lager style. It's a good beer to make to
> improve brewing skills.
I guess it depends on your view point. Is it technically difficult to
make a beer with absolutely no flavor and/or character? Definitely. I'm
not sure I would call this "brewing skill" though. I have much more respect
for a brewer that makes a really good tasting beer than I do for the bio
chemist that can ferment sugar without any side effects (like flavor).
IMO, it's like going to a gourmet chef and asking him to make you a fillet
mignon that tasted just like a McDonalds hamburger. It would certainly be
difficult to do, but I wouldn't say it proved he was a good chef. Assuming
he didn't get really offended, he might ask you "What's the point"?
To each their own though. If you see this as a worthy challenge, then go
for it.
John.
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 05:44:03
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I guess it depends on your view point. Is it technically difficult to
> make a beer with absolutely no flavor and/or character? Definitely. I'm
> not sure I would call this "brewing skill" though. I have much more respect
> for a brewer that makes a really good tasting beer than I do for the bio
> chemist that can ferment sugar without any side effects (like flavor).
I don't think that's a very fair comparison. I would assume everybody
else here that tries to do these kind of beers is using the same kind of
equipment, ingredients, and techniques they employ in their regular
homebrewing. Putting that all together to make this kind of beer is
certainly not cranking something out of a lab.
It's also a little unfair to claim these beers taste entirely like
nothing. I don't think you made that comparison first in the thread so
I'm not trying to poop on you or anybody else in particular. The
flavors aren't strong, but they have to be there and they have to be
just right.
The praline beer idea I tried looks like a very forgiving kind of beer
because it's just overwhelmingly malty and high in alcohol. If it were
a little more or less malty, it wouldn't make that much of a difference.
Same for the caramel flavor for that matter. But that kind of
tolerance in a light lager isn't going to fly.
(And so I continue to make horrible light lagers)
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 17:35:23
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 04:26:25 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>
> Australia's 'in vogue' beer of the moment is extra dry. A fairly thin,
> fairly tasteless low hopped light lager served at freezing temperatures and
> is bone dry.
Sounds like most mass produced commercial US beer as well.
> Although this trendy beer will not go the distance and is not
> really on my horizon, I see a challange in trying to brew one.
Why?
> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness. (1) Mash at
> low to medium temperatures. (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice
> are mainly used in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here. (3) Use a
> Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
> additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
Sounds like you're on the right track. I'll echo comments by others on
your yeast selection though. High alcohol tolerance doesn't imply high
attenuation, and it's high attenuation that you're really after here. IMO,
the odd flavors from using a wine/champagne yeast probably won't give you what
you want. IMO, just go with a neutral ale yeast.
> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Sounds like you've hit the basics. Mash low, highly attenuative adjuncts,
use an enzyme additive if you really want it dry. Unless you really like
this kind of beer though, it sounds like a waste of time to me. Personally
I'd spend my time and effort on making good beer, and just go out and buy
the cheap stuff if I really wanted to drink it.
John.
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 17:05:33
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Extra Dy Beer
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QD Steve wrote:
> I've been thinking the best way to achieve the super dryness. (1) Mash at
> low to medium temperatures. (2) Plenty of adjunct - although corn and rice
> are mainly used in the US, cane sugar is the brewers choice here. (3) Use a
> Champagne or dry white wine yeast or even a distillers yeast. (4) Use an
> additive enzyme to reduce complex sugars.
> Can anyone suggest any other way to get the beer really dry.
Have you actually measured the SG of this style? I figured if you were
planning to make 10 gallons of it (you're 10 gallons right?), you could
sacrifice a bottle/can of the stuff.
You're probably already aware of the BYO Yeast guide, but I'll post for
posterity and to bookmark for myself:
http://byo.com/referenceguide/yeaststrains/lager1.html
Seems like the best lager attenuation you can expect is 80%. I wouldn't
use the other yeasts unless you're not lagering. At the cooler
temperature, I'd expect they wouldn't attenuate as strongly.
That being said, I know white wine yeast can get pretty damn dry at ale
temperatures. I made some guava wine that had an FG of .996 to about
.994.
I don't know anything about what additive enzymes you could use. What I
know of amylase enzyme is it'll gobble that stuff up but leave nothing
behind to ferment.
> (I must admit though, when it's Plus Forty degrees C and you've just come in
> from sweating your bollocks off pandering to the Mrs whims in the backyard,
> these dry beers do hit the spot well)
I've been making lagers for the Austin weather. I haven't been too
successful yet. The first batch didn't carbonate (yeast went dormant).
The second batch was a failure with the turkey fryer I had just got.
The third is too sour due to being too gung-ho on the acid rest.
I will probably stick to the basic idea of that recipe. However, it
requires corn and rice, which you want to avoid. I compared the color
to a glass of Tecate, and mine is much lighter. You will probably need
a slight tad of crystal malt to yellow it up. It is true that lagers
are pretty merciless though.
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