Dry VS Liquid Yeast

brewing-forum.net
Promoting brewing discussion.

Main

Date: 21 Oct 2006 18:14:59
From: Brian Foster
Subject: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
temp related.

I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?

I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast significantly
(when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?

Appreciate your feedback.

Thanks

Date: 21 Oct 2006 15:42:01
From: Gerard Eberlein
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in message
news:Dst_g.8886$ta3.4392@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
> liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
> used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
> temp related.
>
> I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?
>
> I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
> wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast
significantly
> (when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?
>
> Appreciate your feedback.
>
> Thanks

I have used dry and liquid yeasts over my 8 batches and with liquid I have
never used a starter and with the dry, always nottingham, I have scoffed the
directions and rehydrated the yeast in 75F 2 cups of boiled off wort after I
chill it. I haven't noticed any off flavours or problems with either way I
have done my yeast pitching. I can only compare my brews to others at my
beer club meetings but in general I think mine are as high a quality as
theirs and they do all grain. My OGs for both types of yeast have been as
high as 1.091. The main thing I have noticed though when it comes to
pitching yeast try to pitch low, like 66F and keep it temp controlled if
possible so the wort doesn't go past 68F. That alone has improved the clean
taste, don't know how to explain it...you can just tell. I haven't had a
stuck ferment yet. Many here would say I use bad methods for my yeast but I
say why argue with good results?

Gerard

Date: 21 Oct 2006 17:17:03
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Gerard Eberlein wrote:
> "Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Dst_g.8886$ta3.4392@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>> I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
>> liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
>> used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
>> temp related.
>>
>> I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?
>>
>> I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
>> wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast
> significantly
>> (when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?
>>
>> Appreciate your feedback.
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> I have used dry and liquid yeasts over my 8 batches and with liquid I have
> never used a starter and with the dry, always nottingham, I have scoffed the
> directions and rehydrated the yeast in 75F 2 cups of boiled off wort after I
> chill it. I haven't noticed any off flavours or problems with either way I
> have done my yeast pitching. I can only compare my brews to others at my
> beer club meetings but in general I think mine are as high a quality as
> theirs and they do all grain. My OGs for both types of yeast have been as
> high as 1.091. The main thing I have noticed though when it comes to
> pitching yeast try to pitch low, like 66F and keep it temp controlled if
> possible so the wort doesn't go past 68F. That alone has improved the clean
> taste, don't know how to explain it...you can just tell. I haven't had a
> stuck ferment yet. Many here would say I use bad methods for my yeast but I
> say why argue with good results?

The main thing is to keep the temps reasonable for an ale, as you are
doing. If you decrease the viability of the yeast a little by proofing
it in 75F wort, the effect won't be noticeable given the massive amount
of yeast that is present in a dry packet.

Of course the proofing is really an unnecessary step; not "bad", just
unnecessary.

Keep pitching the liquid yeast without a starter, however, and you'll
eventually get bitten -- particularly if the viability in the tube or
smack pack is on the low side. You'll also get bitten if you do a lager
this way. Ales can be pretty forgiving in this regard.

--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)

Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html

Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!

Date: 21 Oct 2006 19:01:48
From: Norm J
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Sat, 21 2006 18:14:59 GMT, "Brian Foster"
<brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote:

>I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
>liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
>used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
>temp related.
>
Temperature control is one of the big keys to improving beer quality
and consistency. Yeast don't like temperature variation. High
fermentation temps increase production of undesireable esters and
phenols and fusel alcohols.

>I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?
>
I've used Nottingham once and didn't like the results in an IPA (it
leaves a tangy note that wasn't well suited to an IPA, but I think it
might work nice in a stout).

I love the new SAF US56 dry yeast. It is pretty much exchangeable
with WLP001 or WY1056, and produces nice clean well attenuated ales in
the American tradition. I use this yeast a lot.

I've also used Safale S04 in an old ale and did not like the results
(Two packets, good aeration and temperature control on what should
have been a fairly fermentable wort went from 1.070 to 1.020 and
stopped. It was too sweet and I have heard that this yeast can have
attenuation problems.

I've also used SAF W34/70 yeast four times now and really like the
results. It produces clean lagers and ferments well at 48-50 degrees.
I have a nice oberfest and a Dortmunder on tap now brewed using
that yeast.

>I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
>wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast significantly
>(when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?
Never pitch dry yeast to a starter. Dry yeast are dried at optimum
health with plenty of sterol reserves for growth. In fact, some
manufacturers recommend against aerating the wort because the yeast is
already at optimal health for growth. Always rehydrate at 85-95
degrees in dechlorinated tap water to ensure highest counts of viable
yeast being pitched. I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort
without ill effects and the US56 packets even instructs to do this ,
but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
50% or more. Why not take such an easy step to insure the highest
counts of healthy yeast? All dry yeast manufacturers recommend
rehydrating for peak viablity and yeast health.

Date: 21 Oct 2006 14:11:23
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Norm J wrote:
>> I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
>> wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast significantly
>> (when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?
> Never pitch dry yeast to a starter. Dry yeast are dried at optimum
> health with plenty of sterol reserves for growth. In fact, some
> manufacturers recommend against aerating the wort because the yeast is
> already at optimal health for growth. Always rehydrate at 85-95
> degrees in dechlorinated tap water to ensure highest counts of viable
> yeast being pitched. I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort
> without ill effects and the US56 packets even instructs to do this ,
> but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
> rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
> 50% or more. Why not take such an easy step to insure the highest
> counts of healthy yeast? All dry yeast manufacturers recommend
> rehydrating for peak viablity and yeast health.

Actually, the rehydration temp will vary a lot by strain. If you're
rehydrating the 34/70, the ideal temp is actually around 74 degrees
(maybe 75-80?). According to Cone et al, the temp is actually fairly
critical to the rehydration process.

I've only bothered rehydrating the 34/70. With US-56 and Nottingham I
just pitch two packets.

--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)

Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html

Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!

Date: 22 Oct 2006 10:54:10
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Sat, 21 2006 19:01:48 GMT, <fishface876@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Never pitch dry yeast to a starter. Dry yeast are dried at optimum
> health with plenty of sterol reserves for growth.

A starter won't hurt dry yeast, but it's not really necessary.

> In fact, some
> manufacturers recommend against aerating the wort because the yeast is
> already at optimal health for growth.

IMO, I would always aerate dry yeast. I don't believe that there is no
benefit to doing so.

> Always rehydrate at 85-95
> degrees in dechlorinated tap water to ensure highest counts of viable
> yeast being pitched. I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort
> without ill effects and the US56 packets even instructs to do this ,

Personally, I would just skip rehydration. I don't think it's a necessary
step.

> but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
> rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
> 50% or more.

Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
near that high.

> Why not take such an easy step to insure the highest
> counts of healthy yeast? All dry yeast manufacturers recommend
> rehydrating for peak viablity and yeast health.

Because it's not necessary, and if done wrong can actually cause more
harm than good.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 08:09:41
From: Norm J
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:

>> but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>> rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>> 50% or more.
>
>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>near that high.
>John.
From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:

How important is it to rehydrate the yeast before adding it to the
fermenter?

Very important! Extensive research shows that the yeast cell wall is
very fragile during the first few minutes of rehydration. Some of the
components of the yeast are going from a dry crystalline form to a gel
like state and can go through this transformation successfully if
rehydrated properly (refer to our 3 easy steps rehydration protocol).
With rehydration water at lower temperatures the transformation from
crystalline to gel is less successful, the cell wall becomes porous
and leaches out vital parts of its insides. Rehydration in 60�F water
can result in a loss of 60% of the yeast viability.

Rehydration in distilled or deionized water is lethal to the yeast.
The cell walls require the presence of some minerals, sodium, calcium,
magnesium and or potassium, during rehydration. Tap water at 250 ppm
hardness is optimum. Most tap water has enough hardness to do the job.
The presence of 1/2% yeast extract, yeast hulls, autolyzed yeast or
peptone in the rehydration water will give the yeast an added boost
that will get it through its lag phase quicker. After the yeast cell
wall has been reconstituted, the yeast returns to its normal ability
to be selective.

Most fermentations should start with an inoculation of 3 - 4 million
viable yeast cells per milliliter of must. A normal healthy
fermentation will reach the stationary phase with a cell population up
to 100 - 150 million viable yeast cells per milliliter. Because of
this significant increase in biomass, it is critical that the active
dried yeast gets off to a good start. Winemakers that carefully
rehydrate their active dried yeast are taking a key preventative step
to avoiding stuck and sluggish fermentations. Remember to use only
clean 104�F tap water and please refer to our Easy 3 Steps Protocol
for more information.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 15:05:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Mon, 23 2006 08:09:41 GMT, <fishface876@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>>> rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>>> 50% or more.
>>
>>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>>near that high.
>>John.
> From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:

I've read that before. Nowhere in there does he say what the viability
loss is if you don't rehydrate. He does say that if you rehydrate in water
incorrectly you can seriously harm the yeast (which is one of the reasons for
not doing it). But he does not say anything specific about viability from
pitching straight into wort.

In my experience, pitching straight into the wort does not cause any
significant harm to the lag time and fermentation. I never noticed any
difference to the beer by rehydrating correctly or skipping rehydration,
so these days I just skip it. As Dr Cone mentions, rehydrating incorrectly
can cause significant viability loss.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 18:55:04
From: timmy
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Norm J wrote:
> On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>>>rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>>>50% or more.
>>
>>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>>near that high.
>>John.
>
> From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:
>
> How important is it to rehydrate the yeast before adding it to the
> fermenter?
>
> Very important! Extensive research shows that the yeast cell wall is
> very fragile during the first few minutes of rehydration. Some of the
> components of the yeast are going from a dry crystalline form to a gel
> like state and can go through this transformation successfully if
> rehydrated properly (refer to our 3 easy steps rehydration protocol).
> With rehydration water at lower temperatures the transformation from
> crystalline to gel is less successful, the cell wall becomes porous
> and leaches out vital parts of its insides. Rehydration in 60�F water
> can result in a loss of 60% of the yeast viability.

dry yeast packets contain many many times more cells then you need. a
loss of 50% or 60% generally won't result in a stuck fermentation.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 15:07:58
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Mon, 23 2006 18:55:04 +1000, < > wrote:
> Norm J wrote:
>> On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>>>>rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>>>>50% or more.
>>>
>>>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>>>near that high.
>>>John.
>>
>> From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:
>>
>> and leaches out vital parts of its insides. Rehydration in 60�F water
>> can result in a loss of 60% of the yeast viability.
>
> dry yeast packets contain many many times more cells then you need. a
> loss of 50% or 60% generally won't result in a stuck fermentation.

Even then, Dr Cone is *not* saying that pitching into wort results in a
60% loss. He's saying that rehydrating at the wrong temp can cause
that loss.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 19:19:33
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>On Mon, 23 2006 18:55:04 +1000, <> wrote:
>> Norm J wrote:
>>> On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>>>>>but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>>>>>rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>>>>>50% or more.
>>>>
>>>>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>>>>near that high.
>>>>John.
>>>
>>> From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:
>>>
>>> and leaches out vital parts of its insides. Rehydration in 60�F water
>>> can result in a loss of 60% of the yeast viability.
>>
>> dry yeast packets contain many many times more cells then you need. a
>> loss of 50% or 60% generally won't result in a stuck fermentation.
>
>Even then, Dr Cone is *not* saying that pitching into wort results in a
>60% loss. He's saying that rehydrating at the wrong temp can cause
>that loss.

The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
--
Joel Plutchak

"Things just fall apart." - Now They'll Sleep (Belly)

Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:04:26
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Mon, 23 2006 19:19:33 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote:
>>On Mon, 23 2006 18:55:04 +1000, <> wrote:
>>> Norm J wrote:
>>>> On 22 2006 10:54:10 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
>>>>>>but according to yeast expert Dr Clayton Cone, not properly
>>>>>>rehydrating the dry yeast in water can reduce viable yeast counts by
>>>>>>50% or more.
>>>>>
>>>>>Where does he say this? I don't believe that the viability hit is anywhere
>>>>>near that high.
>>>>>John.
>>>>
>>>> From Lallemand's Library attributed to Clayton Cone:
>>>>
>>>> and leaches out vital parts of its insides. Rehydration in 60�F water
>>>> can result in a loss of 60% of the yeast viability.
>>>
>>> dry yeast packets contain many many times more cells then you need. a
>>> loss of 50% or 60% generally won't result in a stuck fermentation.
>>
>>Even then, Dr Cone is *not* saying that pitching into wort results in a
>>60% loss. He's saying that rehydrating at the wrong temp can cause
>>that loss.
>
> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?

Yes, but rehydrating in wort is not the same thing as rehydrating in water.
There are definitely differences that would make it a mistake to assume
that it has the same loss for the same reasons. There are entirely different
things going on in the rehydrating cells in the two environments.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:46:24
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 23 2006 21:04:26 GMT, <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>
> Yes, but rehydrating in wort is not the same thing as rehydrating in water.
> There are definitely differences that would make it a mistake to assume
> that it has the same loss for the same reasons. There are entirely different
> things going on in the rehydrating cells in the two environments.

Joel, you may not remember, but FYI we had this exact same conversation
about a year ago on here. The thread was titled "Safale US-56 -- I'm sold"
and started around 11/30 2005. I don't know how groups.google.com formats
the postings for your browser, but on mine it shows a total of 49 posts with
them split equally on two pages. The start of the second page gets into
the posts specifically about the exact same quote from Dr Cone, and why
rehydrating in wort is not the same thing as rehydrating in water, and why
the 60% loss he quotes doesn't apply to wort.

I'd forgotten about that thread too, but it's basically the exact same
question/answer about the same quote from Dr Cone. At least we're consistent!

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 12:27:08
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Joel wrote:

> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?

Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?

--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:20:08
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Mon, 23 2006 12:27:08 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>
>> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>
> Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
> pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?

There are basically three scenarios that would be useful to think of:

1) Rehydrating yeast in water.

2) Rehydrating yeast in a simple sugar solution (IE, table sugar and water).

3) Rehydrating yeast in a complex sugar solution (IE, wort).

In a water solution, the primary cause of viability loss is the internal
components of the cell leaching out into the water. If enough of it leaches
out, it can kill the cell. If only some leaches out the cell can survive
and then later in the process start trying to regain those components from
the water around it. This is the scenario Dr Cone is talking about. This is
not the main reason for rehydrating dry beer yeast though. We rehydrate to
protect against sugars entering the cell while it is reconstituting (see
below), the idea of internals leaching is an added risk that rehydrating in
water introduces to the mix. That's why the temp is important.

In a simple sugar solution, the primary cause is that sugar enters directly
through the cell wall before the yeast has reconstituted enough to control
the flow of sugars through it. I believe if you get enough sugar into
the cell it will essentially kill it.

In a complex sugar solution, many of the sugars are actually larger than
the openings in the yeast cell's wall (this is why we don't get 100%
attenuations in beer, one reason the yeast cannot consume complex sugars
because they will not pass into it). What happens here is rather
interesting. The complex sugars are attracted to the cell, but will not pass
into it, acting as a "blanket" of sorts to plug the openings in the cell
wall. This actually has the effect of protecting the cell during rehydration
from some of the harm that the simple sugars cause. Rehydrating in wort
is not nearly as fatal to yeast as rehydrating in a simple sugar solution.

Assuming that rehydration will impact the cells the same way in the different
scenarios is a mistake. Just because 60F water will cause a 60% loss does
not imply that wort will do the same thing.

I may not have all of the details 100% though. Most of this information
comes from conversations with my wife about this topic. She is a biologist
and used to work in a yeast lab doing these exact types of things. I
believe the gist of it is correct though. Mainly, just because Dr Cone
says that 60F water causes a 60% loss does *not* imply that we have a 60%
loss from wort. There are different things going on during rehydration
between the two.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:51:22
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 23 2006 21:20:08 GMT, <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
> On Mon, 23 2006 12:27:08 -0700, <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote:
>> Joel wrote:
>>
>>> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>>
>> Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
>> pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?
>
> There are basically three scenarios that would be useful to think of:
>
> 1) Rehydrating yeast in water.
>
> 2) Rehydrating yeast in a simple sugar solution (IE, table sugar and water).
>
> 3) Rehydrating yeast in a complex sugar solution (IE, wort).

If it helps, here is a post I made about a year ago when the above conversation
with my wife was still fresh in my mind, it might explain it a little more
clearly:

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:28:25 +0000, <snaf...@lycos.com > wrote:
> Makes sense. Rehydrating with 1.000 SG water, the osmotic gradient is
> pulling stuff out of the yeast whilst their cell wall integrity is
> fragile. From memory I think further on in that article there is mention
> that rehydrating into wort results in the osmotic gradient reversing, ie
> stuff from the wort getting into the fragile yeasties, which also is a
> bad thing.

I asked my wife's opinion (Biology teacher, and also spent some time working
in a yeast lab) on this. Keep in mind it's midnight here, we're both tired,
and it's been quite a few years since her last biology class in college...

Her description is that when you rehydrate yeast cells in cold water,
the internal components (she had a name for them, which I don't remember
and probably couldn't spell if I did) will leak out of the cells. However,
the same thing will be much less likely to happen when rehydration occurs
in a sugar solution. The reason is that glucose is too big to pass through
the cell wall. Also, glucose tends to be attracted to the cells, forming a
layer around them. This "plugs up" the breaks in the cell wall during
rehydration, and helps to prevent those same "internal components" from
leaking out. The drawback to rehydrating in wort is that sucrose is small
enough to pass through, and is toxic to the yeast while it is rehydrating.

In her opinion, rehydrating in 60F wort would probably yield a higher
viability than rehydrating in 60F water. Ideally, rehydrating in 100F water
would be best, but she said that it would probably not make a noticable
difference based on a relatively high pitching rate.

John.

Date: 24 Oct 2006 06:37:52
From: Norm J
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 23 2006 21:51:22 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:

>In her opinion, rehydrating in 60F wort would probably yield a higher
>viability than rehydrating in 60F water. Ideally, rehydrating in 100F water
>would be best, but she said that it would probably not make a noticable
>difference based on a relatively high pitching rate.
>
and this is generally true when pitching dry yeast, one 11 gram packet
has roughly 220 billion yeast cells if at 100% viability and this is
equivalent to what a 2 liter starter can produce if done properly. But
the dry yeast is usually in ideal condition to multiply in the wort as
well where starters may not be. That is why people generally don't
have problems using dry yeast with a less than optimal pitching
scenario, i.e., not rehydrating in warm water. If they do have
problems its many times old and poorly stored dry yeast. Still I
prefer to rehydrate as I like to have as close to ideal pitching rate
as possible. Most of the literature says you need 750,000 to 1,000,000
cells per ml/degree Plato for ales and about double that for lagers
which works out to about 240,000,000,000 for 5.25 gallons of 1.048
wort at the 1,000,000 rate.

Date: 24 Oct 2006 12:56:37
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote:
>Joel wrote:
>
>> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>
>Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
>pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?

That's what I've heard. But in context, the implication
was that only rehydrating (in straight water) in cool water
would damage the yeast. My point being that putting it in
65F wort would be at least as damaging.
--
Joel Plutchak

"Things just fall apart." - Now They'll Sleep (Belly)

Date: 25 Oct 2006 14:49:11
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Tue, 24 2006 12:56:37 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> Denny Conn <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us> wrote:
>>Joel wrote:
>>
>>> The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>>
>>Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
>>pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?
>
> That's what I've heard. But in context, the implication
> was that only rehydrating (in straight water) in cool water
> would damage the yeast. My point being that putting it in
> 65F wort would be at least as damaging.

Not really. There are two completely different things going on in plain
water vs wort. IE, the cause of viability loss is completely different.
There's no reason to assume any association between the viabiliity loss.

John.

Date: 22 Oct 2006 10:50:01
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Sat, 21 2006 18:14:59 GMT, <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote:
> I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
> liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
> used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
> temp related.

IMO, fermentation temp makes a big difference.

> I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?

Nottingham is good stuff, but I've heard some bad things about Doric. There
are lots of other brands though.

> I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
> wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast significantly
> (when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?

Starters are not necessary for dry yeast. A typical 10gm packet of dry
yeast contains 2-4 times as much as a pack/tube of liquid. The dry yeast
has enough that you can just pitch it straight into a 5 gallon batch, unlike
liquid yeast.

John.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 06:30:39
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnejmjem.pl6.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> Starters are not necessary for dry yeast. A typical 10gm packet of dry
> yeast contains 2-4 times as much as a pack/tube of liquid. The dry yeast
> has enough that you can just pitch it straight into a 5 gallon batch,
> unlike
> liquid yeast.
>
>
> John.

Although, I agree that a dry yeast starter is not really necessary, even
to the point I have never used a starter for dry yeast, I still wonder if
better results might be gained from using a starter.
When I make a liquid yeast starter, I step up twice (on average) using a 4
litre demijon. This results in a good amount of slurry which most brewers
would agree is optimal. It is certainly a lot more than a 7g packet of dry
yeast. Also you are pitching active yeast where with dry yeast you do not.
I probably would still not bother with dry yeast starters as I mainly
use Nottingham which I buy direct from Lallemand in 500g packets so, I just
chuck in as much as I want -usually more like 40g/5gal so fermenation is
pretty quick.
Steve W (in Aus)

Date: 23 Oct 2006 06:48:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On Mon, 23 2006 06:30:39 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
>
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnejmjem.pl6.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>> Starters are not necessary for dry yeast. A typical 10gm packet of dry
>> yeast contains 2-4 times as much as a pack/tube of liquid. The dry yeast
>> has enough that you can just pitch it straight into a 5 gallon batch,
>> unlike
>> liquid yeast.
>>
>>
>> John.
>
> Although, I agree that a dry yeast starter is not really necessary, even
> to the point I have never used a starter for dry yeast, I still wonder if
> better results might be gained from using a starter.

It probably wouldn't make much difference for ales. Lagers might be
another story though. If you're really worried about the cell count (which
should be plenty with dry yeast) you can always just pitch two packets. Dry
yeast is fairly cheap.

> When I make a liquid yeast starter, I step up twice (on average) using a 4
> litre demijon. This results in a good amount of slurry which most brewers
> would agree is optimal. It is certainly a lot more than a 7g packet of dry
> yeast. Also you are pitching active yeast where with dry yeast you do not.

Pitching "active" yeast doesn't really make much difference. It only takes
the yeast cells around 30 minutes to "wake up" and start activity. In terms
of a typical lag time, 30 minutes is not a big deal.

John.

Date: 24 Oct 2006 06:45:33
From: Norm J
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 23 2006 06:48:35 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:

r results might be gained from using a starter.
>
>It probably wouldn't make much difference for ales. Lagers might be
>another story though. If you're really worried about the cell count (which
>should be plenty with dry yeast) you can always just pitch two packets. Dry
>yeast is fairly cheap.
>

2 packets of 11g dry yeast is proper pitching rate for 5 gallons of
lager

Date: 23 Oct 2006 16:45:02
From: timmy
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Steve/Aus wrote:
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnejmjem.pl6.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>
>>Starters are not necessary for dry yeast. A typical 10gm packet of dry
>>yeast contains 2-4 times as much as a pack/tube of liquid. The dry yeast
>>has enough that you can just pitch it straight into a 5 gallon batch,
>>unlike
>>liquid yeast.
>>
>>
>>John.
>
>
> Although, I agree that a dry yeast starter is not really necessary, even
> to the point I have never used a starter for dry yeast, I still wonder if
> better results might be gained from using a starter.
> When I make a liquid yeast starter, I step up twice (on average) using a 4
> litre demijon. This results in a good amount of slurry which most brewers
> would agree is optimal. It is certainly a lot more than a 7g packet of dry
> yeast. Also you are pitching active yeast where with dry yeast you do not.
> I probably would still not bother with dry yeast starters as I mainly
> use Nottingham which I buy direct from Lallemand in 500g packets so, I just
> chuck in as much as I want -usually more like 40g/5gal so fermenation is
> pretty quick.
> Steve W (in Aus)
>
>

i've never had an infection but i've heard anicdotal evidence that
pitching dry yeast in a starter helps beat out infections due to the
high cell count, but i really don't think there is a need for it.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 13:57:11
From: alebrewer
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Denny Conn wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>
> > The yeast rehydrates in the wort, no?
>
> Yes, but my understanding is that the sugar in the wort places too much
> pressure on the yeast cells, causing them to rupture. Whaddya think?
>
> --------->Denny
> --
> Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.

My understanding is that the sugar content of wort is much less than a
wine must, so pitching on wort is better than on must. Further, the
wort contains many of the minerals needed for proper rehydration.

My own experience is that 11g of Nottingham pitched on 5 gal of 70 F
1.045 wort will result in a lag time of 10 to 18 hours while pitching
on 5 gal of 90 F 1.045 wort gives a lag time of less than 6 hours. Of
course, once pitching on the 90 F wort, it is cooled to 65 F within a
few hours. While there may be some increase in activity due to the few
hours spent at a higher temperature, the fermentation activity (and the
length of time for fermentation) of both at 65 F seems to be
comparable.

I don't believe that using a liquid yeast will produce a better beer
than a dry yeast. Yes, some yeast strains are only available as a
liquid, so if you want to go for a style that would use those yeasts,
you don't have much choice. For a beginner, however, I recommend
staying with a specific dry yeast until you become consistant with your
results (and you have tweaked your recipies/processes for optimum
results). I wish someone had given me that advice ten years ago. I
would have spent more time improving my process and less time fooling
with starters.

ab

Date: 24 Oct 2006 10:13:01
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Scotty B wrote:
>
> Norm J wrote:
> > ...I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort without ill effects...
>
> Is it best to sprinkle onto the wort before or after aeration?

Makes absolutely no difference.

-------- >Denny

--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.

Date: 24 Oct 2006 04:45:25
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Norm J wrote:
> ...I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort without ill effects...

Is it best to sprinkle onto the wort before or after aeration?

Scotty B

Date: 25 Oct 2006 14:46:56
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 24 2006 04:45:25 -0700, <michaellasalle@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> Norm J wrote:
>> ...I know a lot of people sprinkle right on the wort without ill effects...
>
> Is it best to sprinkle onto the wort before or after aeration?

Probably doesn't make any difference.

John.

Date: 24 Oct 2006 04:43:14
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Steve/Aus wrote:
> I probably would still not bother with dry yeast starters as I mainly
> use Nottingham which I buy direct from Lallemand in 500g packets so, I just
> chuck in as much as I want -usually more like 40g/5gal so fermenation is
> pretty quick.
> Steve W (in Aus)

How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?

Scotty B

Date: 24 Oct 2006 23:44:15
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

"Scotty B" <michaellasalle@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161690194.485321.128160@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Steve/Aus wrote:
>> I probably would still not bother with dry yeast starters as I mainly
>> use Nottingham which I buy direct from Lallemand in 500g packets so, I
>> just
>> chuck in as much as I want -usually more like 40g/5gal so fermenation is
>> pretty quick.
>> Steve W (in Aus)
>
> How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?
>
> Scotty B

In a zip-lock bag in the fridge.
Steve W (in Aus)

Date: 25 Oct 2006 05:17:53
From:
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Brian Foster wrote:
> I've tried both now and it would seem that my better results come from
> liquid. However, I did not have a fermentation fridge when I started (and
> used dry yeast) so I'm not sure if my results were yeast or fermentation
> temp related.
>
> I've tried Doric and Nottingham dry yeast. Are there also others? Better?
>
> I've also gotten into the habit of using a starter for the yeast and I
> wonder if that might improve the performance of the Dry yeast significantly
> (when I used dry yeast , I did not do a starter)?
>
> Appreciate your feedback.
>
> Thanks

Actually Brian both yeast are quite good yet with proper
handling you will discover a much wider range of flavors and beer types
that can be produced with the liquid variety. In addition "yes"
separating the fermentation temp factor from mear yeast selection is a
great way to understand what influences the flavor of your beers. Dry
yeast offer a lot of convenience and less handling concerns than liquid
yeast do but again you'll find if you wish to immulate that one special
beer that exacting flavor profile is very likely achieved with the use
of a good quality liquid yeast. Don't rely solely on the yeast for as
you mentioned earlier your use of a fermentation fridge will also have
a major influence on ester production. Some feel this offers a negative
element to the finished product, I on the other hand like the flavors
produced from some elevated ferm temps. but hey, that's just me.

Date: 25 Oct 2006 04:16:20
From: Scotty B
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

> > How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?
> >
> > Scotty B
>
> In a zip-lock bag in the fridge.
> Steve W (in Aus)

How long is that good for then?

Date: 25 Oct 2006 23:32:57
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

"Scotty B" <michaellasalle@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161774979.974539.154050@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> > How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?
>> >
>> > Scotty B
>>
>> In a zip-lock bag in the fridge.
>> Steve W (in Aus)
>
> How long is that good for then?
>
The packet I have now is 18 months old - mostly used up now, but it's still
very viable.
At a wild guess, and using info from their website, I would have lost
between 25% and maybe 40% viability.
That's the reason I chuck in more than recommended.
Bulk dried yeast is very cheap.
Steve W (in Aus)

Date: 26 Oct 2006 05:41:20
From: trequites
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Date: 26 Oct 2006 05:32:11
From:
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

Scotty B wrote:
> > > How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?
> > >
> > > Scotty B
> >
> > In a zip-lock bag in the fridge.
> > Steve W (in Aus)
>
> How long is that good for then?

I have not known anyone to use only a portion of a dried yeast
pac once it had been opened. They are typicaly portioned in an amount
good for one time use. I believe useing a bit now and saving the rest
for later is begging for contamination in the unused portion. I suppose
your idea of a ziplock bag in the fridge could minimize the risk. I've
never seen packets that contain more than 7grams of yeast which is
sufficient for one pitch. I can only imagine that if everything was
sanitary the unused portion could survive for months.

Steve

Date: 26 Oct 2006 17:49:03
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Dry VS Liquid Yeast

On 26 2006 05:32:11 -0700, <smhoneydo@aol.com > wrote:
>
> Scotty B wrote:
>> > > How do you store your remaining yeast once the packet is opened?
>> > >
>> > > Scotty B
>> >
>> > In a zip-lock bag in the fridge.
>> > Steve W (in Aus)
>>
>> How long is that good for then?
>
> I have not known anyone to use only a portion of a dried yeast
> pac once it had been opened. They are typicaly portioned in an amount
> good for one time use. I believe useing a bit now and saving the rest
> for later is begging for contamination in the unused portion. I suppose
> your idea of a ziplock bag in the fridge could minimize the risk. I've
> never seen packets that contain more than 7grams of yeast which is
> sufficient for one pitch. I can only imagine that if everything was
> sanitary the unused portion could survive for months.

That's true for single use packets (typically 7 - 11 grams), I believe the
above poster is talking about buying dry yeast in bulk 500 grams or so at a
time. Obviously that's not just for one batch.

John.