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Date: 24 Jun 2006 14:40:42
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Combining yeasts
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Hi gang,
Just sitting here with a brewing buddy having a few of the latest
experiment.
Just a question: How many of you have, or do now ferment with two different
kinds of yeast?
What yeasts and what brew?
Just curious, I'll go back to "testing"
Tom
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 03:44:04
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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Tom Biasi wrote:
> Hi gang,
> Just sitting here with a brewing buddy having a few of the latest
> experiment.
> Just a question: How many of you have, or do now ferment with two different
> kinds of yeast?
> What yeasts and what brew?
I've bottled with a strain different from the primary/secondary and it
has been a problem becusue I hadn't calculated the difference in
attenuation. This came up more than once, so I will give a single
example. For a stout, I used a British ale yeast that did its normal
job. However, I bottled with a packet of Nottingham ale yeast, which is
notoriously aggressive. This yeast ended up screwing up my bottling and
created a few gushers. It ended up metabolizing more sugars than the
original yeast, so my calculations for bottling sugar were too generous.
Outside of this, I haven't played around with it. However, I like to
give this warning to others when they try different yeasts. Watch your
bottling.
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 13:24:41
From: rb
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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never triedTom Biasi wrote:
> Hi gang,
> Just sitting here with a brewing buddy having a few of the latest
> experiment.
> Just a question: How many of you have, or do now ferment with two different
> kinds of yeast?
> What yeasts and what brew?
> Just curious, I'll go back to "testing"
> Tom
>
>
never tried any, but Whitelabs has a few
eg
http://www.whitelabs.com/results.asp?PageNo=2&zip=&Beverage+Type=&name=&company=&Mv=Next+Page
American Ale Yeast Blend
(WLP060)
Our most popular strain is WLP001-California Ale yeast. This blend
celebrates the strengths of California - clean, neutral fermentation,
versatile usage and adds two other strains that belong in the same"
clean/neutral" flavor category. The additional strains create complexity
to the finished beer, and will taste more lager like than just WLP001.
Hops flavors and bitterness are accentuated, but to the extreme of
WLP001. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation.
Attenuation: 72-80; Flocculation: medium; Optimum Ferm. Temp: 68-73
of course for some Belgian styles
Belgian Sour Mix
(WLP655)
A unique blend perfect for Belgian style beers. Includes Brettanomyces,
Saccharomyces, and the bacterial strains Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.
Attenuation: N/A; Flocculation: N/A; Optimum Ferm. Temp: N/A
cheers
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 14:47:08
From: Eric Scantlebury
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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"rb" <snafu_1@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:449e019e$0$15080$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com...
> Attenuation: 72-80; Flocculation: medium; Optimum Ferm. Temp: 68-73
Quick question off OP's topic if I may. When you read the optimum Ferm temp
as 68-73 is that the ambient air surrounding the Ferm vessel or is that the
actual temp the wort should be fermenting at internal to the vessel. As I
understand if I have ambient air at 68 the wort is going to be warmer (by
say 10 degrees or so) due to the fermentation process so which way do you
measure for Optimum Ferm temp?
Thanks,
Eric
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 15:42:16
From: Stoutman
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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> Quick question off OP's topic if I may. When you read the optimum Ferm
> temp as 68-73 is that the ambient air surrounding the Ferm vessel or is
> that the actual temp the wort should be fermenting at internal to the
> vessel. As I understand if I have ambient air at 68 the wort is going to
> be warmer (by say 10 degrees or so) due to the fermentation process so
> which way do you measure for Optimum Ferm temp?
Fermentation temp is the temperature of the wort. I usually place a
thermocouple temperature probe on the outside of the carboy held in place
with a rubber band. I adjust the temperature of my freezer until I have the
right temperature. Once the fermentation is over the temperature of the
carboy will fall.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:47:08 GMT, <Eric_Scantlebury@verizon.net > wrote:
>
> "rb" <snafu_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:449e019e$0$15080$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com...
>> Attenuation: 72-80; Flocculation: medium; Optimum Ferm. Temp: 68-73
>
> Quick question off OP's topic if I may. When you read the optimum Ferm temp
> as 68-73 is that the ambient air surrounding the Ferm vessel or is that the
> actual temp the wort should be fermenting at internal to the vessel. As I
> understand if I have ambient air at 68 the wort is going to be warmer (by
> say 10 degrees or so) due to the fermentation process so which way do you
> measure for Optimum Ferm temp?
I don't know which way they mean it, but I would interpret it as the beer
temp, not the ambient air temp. Also, IMO, most of the temp ranges printed
with yeasts tend to be on the high side. I think you'd get best results at
the bottom end of their range, or even slightly lower.
John.
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 19:16:02
From: Lefty Skywalker
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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Tom Biasi wrote:
> Hi gang,
> Just sitting here with a brewing buddy having a few of the latest
> experiment.
> Just a question: How many of you have, or do now ferment with two different
> kinds of yeast?
> What yeasts and what brew?
> Just curious, I'll go back to "testing"
> Tom
I'm curious too... I haven't seen any recipes that use two yeasts yet,
in my week or so of surfing. Will one out-compete the other and dominate?
--
Daniel O. Miller
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
WWYD? (-o-) <* > Genesis 49:17
Real email address: darth dot lefty at golf mike able india lima.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 14:28:28
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:02 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm curious too... I haven't seen any recipes that use two yeasts yet,
> in my week or so of surfing. Will one out-compete the other and dominate?
Yeah, that's basically what happens. Whichever yeast takes hold first usually
out competes the other yeast. Which one dominates is also fairly
unpredictable. You don't tend to see very many recipes using multiple yeasts
unless someone made a recipe like that just to be different. IMO, you'll
get much more predictable/consistent results only using one yeast.
John.
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 17:32:40
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrne9vrrk.61o.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:02 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm curious too... I haven't seen any recipes that use two yeasts yet,
>> in my week or so of surfing. Will one out-compete the other and
>> dominate?
>
> Yeah, that's basically what happens. Whichever yeast takes hold first
> usually
> out competes the other yeast. Which one dominates is also fairly
> unpredictable. You don't tend to see very many recipes using multiple
> yeasts
> unless someone made a recipe like that just to be different. IMO, you'll
> get much more predictable/consistent results only using one yeast.
>
>
> John.
How about when your fermentation temperature will swing between the optimum
for each yeast?
Tom
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 14:05:25
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:40 -0400, <tombiasi@********optonline.net > wrote:
>
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrne9vrrk.61o.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:02 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm curious too... I haven't seen any recipes that use two yeasts yet,
>>> in my week or so of surfing. Will one out-compete the other and
>>> dominate?
>>
>> Yeah, that's basically what happens. Whichever yeast takes hold first
>> usually
>> out competes the other yeast. Which one dominates is also fairly
>> unpredictable. You don't tend to see very many recipes using multiple
>> yeasts
>> unless someone made a recipe like that just to be different. IMO, you'll
>> get much more predictable/consistent results only using one yeast.
>>
>>
>> John.
>
> How about when your fermentation temperature will swing between the optimum
> for each yeast?
Optimum temp doesn't have as much to do with how active they are as it does
with the flavor profile they create. IE, if one strain becomes dominant,
usually because it reproduces to a higher population, it will most likely
remain dominant regardless of any temp changes. The only way I can see a
temp swing making a significant difference is if you pitched an ale and
lager strain for some reason. You could start it out at ale temps and
the strains would be on fairly equal footing regarding which one will dominate,
then if you cooled it down to lager temps the lager strain should be much
more tolerant and take over, assuming that it reproduced enough to have
any effect. If the ale yeast dominated during the warm ferment, there may
not be enough of a cell count of the lager strain to really do anything
useful when you drop it down to lager temps.
I don't think I've ever heard of someone doing anything like that though, and
am not sure what the results would be. At best it would be fairly
unpredictable. You may get a nice effect from it on one ferment, but
something completely different the next time you try it. As homebrewers, we
just don't have enough control over what happens during the initial growth
phase of the yeast to make any sort of repeatable scenario.
John.
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Date: 27 Jun 2006 15:12:58
From: Tom Biasi
Subject: Re: Combining yeasts
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnea2esf.bc1.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:40 -0400, <tombiasi@********optonline.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
>> news:slrne9vrrk.61o.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:02 -0700, <dmille15@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm curious too... I haven't seen any recipes that use two yeasts yet,
>>>> in my week or so of surfing. Will one out-compete the other and
>>>> dominate?
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's basically what happens. Whichever yeast takes hold first
>>> usually
>>> out competes the other yeast. Which one dominates is also fairly
>>> unpredictable. You don't tend to see very many recipes using multiple
>>> yeasts
>>> unless someone made a recipe like that just to be different. IMO,
>>> you'll
>>> get much more predictable/consistent results only using one yeast.
>>>
>>>
>>> John.
>>
>> How about when your fermentation temperature will swing between the
>> optimum
>> for each yeast?
>
> Optimum temp doesn't have as much to do with how active they are as it
> does
> with the flavor profile they create. IE, if one strain becomes dominant,
> usually because it reproduces to a higher population, it will most likely
> remain dominant regardless of any temp changes. The only way I can see a
> temp swing making a significant difference is if you pitched an ale and
> lager strain for some reason. You could start it out at ale temps and
> the strains would be on fairly equal footing regarding which one will
> dominate,
> then if you cooled it down to lager temps the lager strain should be much
> more tolerant and take over, assuming that it reproduced enough to have
> any effect. If the ale yeast dominated during the warm ferment, there may
> not be enough of a cell count of the lager strain to really do anything
> useful when you drop it down to lager temps.
>
> I don't think I've ever heard of someone doing anything like that though,
> and
> am not sure what the results would be. At best it would be fairly
> unpredictable. You may get a nice effect from it on one ferment, but
> something completely different the next time you try it. As homebrewers,
> we
> just don't have enough control over what happens during the initial growth
> phase of the yeast to make any sort of repeatable scenario.
>
>
> John.
Thanks Shaggy,
You opinions are always appreciated.
Tom
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