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Date: 16 Nov 2006 10:34:46
From: Sportinus
Subject: Chiller Pros and Cons
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As I try to decide what chiller to get (probably over analyzing), I
came up with these pros and cons. Are there others?
Immersion
Pros - cheap, easy to clean, no siphon or pump needed
Cons - not the most efficient, wort is used to sanitize
CF
Pros - more efficient, uses less water than immersion, "better" cold
break
Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey, cannot visual see wort path, need to
be carefully of clogging during cooling (boil pot hot break and hop
matter), must sanitize wort path
Plate
Pros - most efficient, small size, "better" cold break, uses less water
than CF
Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey(therminator), cannot visual see wort
path, need to be carefully of clogging, must sanitize wort path
Taking this information into consideration, I'm leaning towards and
immersion chiller of the shirron plate chiller. I currently do 5 gal
extract batches and want to expand to 10 gal batches.
Thanks!
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 19:56:55
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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"Sportinus" <sportinus@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1163702086.435712.154370@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> As I try to decide what chiller to get (probably over analyzing), I
> came up with these pros and cons. Are there others?
>
> Immersion
> Pros - cheap, easy to clean, no siphon or pump needed
> Cons - not the most efficient, wort is used to sanitize
>
> CF
> Pros - more efficient, uses less water than immersion, "better" cold
> break
> Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey, cannot visual see wort path, need to
> be carefully of clogging during cooling (boil pot hot break and hop
> matter), must sanitize wort path
>
> Plate
> Pros - most efficient, small size, "better" cold break, uses less water
> than CF
> Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey(therminator), cannot visual see wort
> path, need to be carefully of clogging, must sanitize wort path
>
> Taking this information into consideration, I'm leaning towards and
> immersion chiller of the shirron plate chiller. I currently do 5 gal
> extract batches and want to expand to 10 gal batches.
What's really cheap is setting your fermentation bucket in an ice bath in
your sink for a half hour. Works like a charm, and boy is it ever cheap.
--
Dave
"Fill your cup with whatever bitter brew you're drinking." -- Brad Paisley
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 06:38:48
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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There IS something to be said for moving the entire mass of hot wort out of
the hot boil pot but unless U stir the cooling wort and/or the ice bath to
break up the stratification of heat that occurs,it takes quite a while to
drop the temp,esp with 10 G--
Thanks
Hank
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 14:33:55
From: Jerry Z
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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I've always enjoyed building my own equipment, and have built both CF
and immersion chillers. I tried CF first, because I believed that it
would be better than an immersion chiller -- I had read that CF-type
would chill faster than immersion. It worked very well. However, I
ended up breaking the dang thing after a half-dozen uses, and scrapped
it. Frustrated with the amount of work it took to build, I decided to
give a 2-stage immersion chiller a try. This one is simple to make, and
works every bit as well as my old CF, as long as I stir the wort during
the chilling process.
All I did was buy 2 (pre-coiled) lengths of copper tubing (I think they
are each 25 feet long). I attached an in hose and an out hose on coil
#1. The out hose from #1 then becomes the in hose for the coil #2. Add
another out hose for the second coil, and clamp them all tight with
hose clamps. Coil #1 goes into a bucket of ice water. Coil #2 goes into
the boiling wort. Attach the garden hose to coil #1 (get proper
attachments at hardware store when you're buying the copper tubing,
flexible hose and hose clamps). Make sure you give yourself enough hose
between the coils.
When I use this setup and stir the wort as the water flows through the
chiller, I get a fantastic rate of cooling. From 200 deg. F. down to 70
deg. F in about 10 minutes. Now I just need to fabricate a way to
automatically stir the wort gently without aerating it (while it's
still hot). I'm currently stirring by hand.
My point is that I wouldn't go back to CF chillers for anything --
immersion is practically as fast, and you don't have to worry about
clogging.
Jerry
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 19:43:58
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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Jerry is describing a prechiller which I, among many have tried and
discarded because if one measures the outflow temp from tube #1 after the
first couple of minutes when the tubing of #1 has begun to warm up from the
hose water (which for us on the Gulf Coast can be in the mid 80s) one will
soon see that there is very little difference between intake/output because
the water flow is too rapid for the hose water to chill much.Generally
speaking if the liquids are within 20-25 degrees there will be little
thermal exchange so assuming a 45 degree ice bath the hose water will have
to be mid 70's to matter and it won't be much,perhaps bringing the 75 down
to 70.Whether you agree with this statement or not you can certainly accept
that the prechiller outlet water is warmer than the ice bath.So why not just
recirculate the ice water with a cheap pond pump?
.... Best use of that fine coil of Cu that was the prechiller would be to
make it an auxiliary chiller via a Tee and run TWO parallel coils which in
time as one approaches 100 would be fed by the ice water system.Remember the
further apart the coolant and cooled are the quicker chilling occurs so hose
water works great until about 100
Please see my recent post from a few weeks ago-a new kind of IC from 11/8.
--
Thanks
Hank
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 19:47:25
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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For some reason Kaptn salty's note wasn't up when I composed/sent my
note...I agree with everything he says
--
Thanks
Hank
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Date: 17 Nov 2006 08:44:42
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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hankus wrote:
> For some reason Kaptn salty's note wasn't up when I composed/sent my
> note...I agree with everything he says
>
Will you marry me?
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 17:08:00
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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Jerry Z wrote:
> I've always enjoyed building my own equipment, and have built both CF
> and immersion chillers. I tried CF first, because I believed that it
> would be better than an immersion chiller -- I had read that CF-type
> would chill faster than immersion. It worked very well. However, I
> ended up breaking the dang thing after a half-dozen uses, and scrapped
> it. Frustrated with the amount of work it took to build, I decided to
> give a 2-stage immersion chiller a try. This one is simple to make, and
> works every bit as well as my old CF, as long as I stir the wort during
> the chilling process.
>
> All I did was buy 2 (pre-coiled) lengths of copper tubing (I think they
> are each 25 feet long). I attached an in hose and an out hose on coil
> #1. The out hose from #1 then becomes the in hose for the coil #2. Add
> another out hose for the second coil, and clamp them all tight with
> hose clamps. Coil #1 goes into a bucket of ice water. Coil #2 goes into
> the boiling wort. Attach the garden hose to coil #1 (get proper
> attachments at hardware store when you're buying the copper tubing,
> flexible hose and hose clamps). Make sure you give yourself enough hose
> between the coils.
>
> When I use this setup and stir the wort as the water flows through the
> chiller, I get a fantastic rate of cooling. From 200 deg. F. down to 70
> deg. F in about 10 minutes. Now I just need to fabricate a way to
> automatically stir the wort gently without aerating it (while it's
> still hot). I'm currently stirring by hand.
>
> My point is that I wouldn't go back to CF chillers for anything --
> immersion is practically as fast, and you don't have to worry about
> clogging.
>
> Jerry
>
Note that rather than using a submerged "pre-chiller" coil, you can get
much faster (and lower) chilling by using a cheap submersible pump to
recirc ice water directly through the IC chiller coils (you can also do
this with a CF). Using either type of chiller I can cool all the way
down to the mid 40s this way.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 14:32:37
From: El Bastardo
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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I have the Chillzilla Convoluted Chiller...
If you can afford it it's the greatest piece of equipment I own...
I boil in a converted 1/2 barrel with a gooseneck for transfer.
Hang that sucker off the side of the keg...
Start a siphon and it chills it while it siphons into your fermenter...
Rinse it out with hot water and sanitizer when done...
Never clogged...Never had a cleaning issue...
Seriously...If you can afford it it rules...
no more standing over the immersion chiller waiting for the wort to
cool...then dealing with hop leaves stuck in between the coils...
Whoa that's a lot of elipses...sorry...
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 12:58:46
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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Sportinus wrote:
> As I try to decide what chiller to get (probably over analyzing), I
> came up with these pros and cons. Are there others?
>
> Immersion
> Pros - cheap, easy to clean, no siphon or pump needed
> Cons - not the most efficient, wort is used to sanitize
The sanitation aspect is a non issue -- in fact, boil sanitation is
a good bit simpler than pother methods.
I'm not convinced that efficiency is really a huge issue (at least for
10 gallons or less) if you can keep the wort moving during the cooling
phase. See http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php. I'm thinking of giving
this a try in a few batches, just to see if he's right.
Larger ICs can be bulky.
>
> CF
> Pros - more efficient, uses less water than immersion, "better" cold
> break
> Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey, cannot visual see wort path, need to
> be carefully of clogging during cooling (boil pot hot break and hop
> matter), must sanitize wort path
One potential con is that some grists can produce DMS while the hot wort
is in a closed pot waiting to exit the chiller. Typically, this is an
more of an issue with largely Pilsener and other two-row grists,
although DMS production seems to vary a lot across malts.
>
> Plate
> Pros - most efficient, small size, "better" cold break, uses less water
> than CF
> Cons - "harder" to clean, pricey(therminator), cannot visual see wort
> path, need to be carefully of clogging, must sanitize wort path
>
> Taking this information into consideration, I'm leaning towards and
> immersion chiller of the shirron plate chiller. I currently do 5 gal
> extract batches and want to expand to 10 gal batches.
I'd start with an IC and see if it meets your needs before moving to a
plate chiller. I use a Therminator and love it for most things, but ICs
work extremely well also. Try to get some feedback on the Shirron before
plunking down the money. Note that all of the plate chillers are
problematic if you use pellets (I only use whole because they just work
better in my system).
Hope that helps -- m
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 15:18:11
From: hankus
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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..but if U don't have a pump that can handle hot liquids then it's back to
IC versus counterflow chiller.Having had it with trying to clean cold break
out of CFC (mine was really a coil in an ice bath) I have returned to IC but
this time a double barreled one-see my recent posts "a new type of immersion
chiller".
Kap, having communicated with U in the past and recalling U also use a
cheap pump for circulating ice water in the late phases of IC,I thought that
U used an IC.
--
Thanks
Hank
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Date: 16 Nov 2006 15:45:48
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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hankus wrote:
> ..but if U don't have a pump that can handle hot liquids then it's back to
> IC versus counterflow chiller.Having had it with trying to clean cold break
> out of CFC (mine was really a coil in an ice bath) I have returned to IC but
> this time a double barreled one-see my recent posts "a new type of immersion
> chiller".
> Kap, having communicated with U in the past and recalling U also use a
> cheap pump for circulating ice water in the late phases of IC,I thought that
> U used an IC.
>
Actually, I usually use a Therminator these days. No need for a pump,
though (although I don't use pellet hops). I don't see clogging issues
with the therminator, even using gravity to feed it.
I recirc ice water through the Therminator with a submersible pump, just
as I did through the IC, although with the therminator, I redirect some
of the ice water away from the tub periodically as the tub ice melts.
Gets 6 gallons down to lager pitch temps (46F or so) in around 15-minutes.
On the other hand, I've had some minor DMS problems lately with my
all-pilsener malt beers, and may go back to the IC for those beers. No
issues with pale malt grists or vienna/munich.
Mystic Krewe of Brew meets tonight at the Columbia Tap room in
Covington, btw. 7:30pm on the back patio.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 21 Nov 2006 16:50:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Chiller Pros and Cons
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On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:58:46 -0600, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> Sportinus wrote:
>> As I try to decide what chiller to get (probably over analyzing), I
>> came up with these pros and cons. Are there others?
>>
>> Immersion
>> Pros - cheap, easy to clean, no siphon or pump needed
>> Cons - not the most efficient, wort is used to sanitize
> The sanitation aspect is a non issue -- in fact, boil sanitation is
> a good bit simpler than pother methods.
>
> I'm not convinced that efficiency is really a huge issue (at least for
> 10 gallons or less) if you can keep the wort moving during the cooling
> phase. See http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php. I'm thinking of giving
> this a try in a few batches, just to see if he's right.
I'd agree. I'm not sure why "wort is used to sanitize" is listed as a Con
above? Also, the efficiency thing is not really that big a deal, at least
not to me.
Other than that, I think they've basically got it right.
Oh, and I also agree with the "probably over analyzing" part too. ;)
John.
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