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Date: 18 Oct 2006 06:12:04
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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I bottled a lager recently and it came out very cidery. The yeast had
gone dormant so I had pitched dry yeast. On top of that, I bottled with
sugar. I think the combination has caused a cidery beer. This doesn't
scare me off using regular sugar, since I think it was the combination
that caused this--most of the yeast nutrients probably had excused
itself during the first two fermentations.
I have a batch I want to bottle this weekend with table sugar again. If
I add some yeast nutrient with the sugar, will I minimize the risk of a
cider flavor? In this case, I'm using the yeast from the same carboy
since it still seems awake.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 15:26:41
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Wed, 18 2006 06:12:04 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I bottled a lager recently and it came out very cidery. The yeast had
> gone dormant so I had pitched dry yeast. On top of that, I bottled with
> sugar. I think the combination has caused a cidery beer. This doesn't
> scare me off using regular sugar, since I think it was the combination
> that caused this--most of the yeast nutrients probably had excused
> itself during the first two fermentations.
>
> I have a batch I want to bottle this weekend with table sugar again. If
> I add some yeast nutrient with the sugar, will I minimize the risk of a
> cider flavor? In this case, I'm using the yeast from the same carboy
> since it still seems awake.
Sugar does not cause cidery flavors (despite the myth). I'd look elsewhere
for your problem. Was it an extract batch or all grain? If extract, how
old was it. If all grain, were they your homemade grains?
How long did you lager, and/or did you rack off of the yeast particularly
early? Removing the yeast from a batch too soon can leave behind some
odd flavors, often a "green apple" type thing which could be described
as cidery. I would guess that bottling a lager too quickly before it
has had a chance for the yeast to clean up left over fermentation by-products
(which is what it does during "lagering") would cause the same thing.
I think blaming the sugar is going down the wrong path.
John.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 08:39:39
From: Dan Listermann
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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The sugar did not cause the cidery flavor. Stale extract did.
Dan
"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:UAjZg.3218$um6.2217@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>I bottled a lager recently and it came out very cidery. The yeast had gone
>dormant so I had pitched dry yeast. On top of that, I bottled with sugar.
>I think the combination has caused a cidery beer. This doesn't scare me
>off using regular sugar, since I think it was the combination that caused
>this--most of the yeast nutrients probably had excused itself during the
>first two fermentations.
>
> I have a batch I want to bottle this weekend with table sugar again. If I
> add some yeast nutrient with the sugar, will I minimize the risk of a
> cider flavor? In this case, I'm using the yeast from the same carboy
> since it still seems awake.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 07:28:43
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:UAjZg.3218$um6.2217@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>I bottled a lager recently and it came out very cidery. The yeast had gone
>dormant so I had pitched dry yeast. On top of that, I bottled with sugar.
>I think the combination has caused a cidery beer. This doesn't scare me
>off using regular sugar, since I think it was the combination that caused
>this--most of the yeast nutrients probably had excused itself during the
>first two fermentations.
>
> I have a batch I want to bottle this weekend with table sugar again. If I
> add some yeast nutrient with the sugar, will I minimize the risk of a
> cider flavor? In this case, I'm using the yeast from the same carboy
> since it still seems awake.
I don't think that the cidery flavour will come from using such a small
amount of sugar for bottling.
I've used quite a bit of cane sugar in a couple of my beers at boil
time(1-2Kg) without any cidery flavours. I reckon something else is doing
it - not the sugar. Maybe just time is all takes for the roundness of
flavour to properly develop in your beer. Just MO.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:57:36
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Steve/Aus wrote:
> I don't think that the cidery flavour will come from using such a small
> amount of sugar for bottling.
There's some debate in sugar causing the taste by itself. Rather, it's
the lack of nutrients after fermentation that causes the yeast to
release the compounds that cause the flavor. That's what I was
suspecting here.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 14:38:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Thu, 19 2006 01:57:36 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Steve/Aus wrote:
>> I don't think that the cidery flavour will come from using such a small
>> amount of sugar for bottling.
>
> There's some debate in sugar causing the taste by itself.
I'm not sure how much of a debate I'd really call it. It's more like
some people believing an old myth that was thrown around alot in older
books.
> Rather, it's the lack of nutrients after fermentation that causes the
> yeast to release the compounds that cause the flavor.
Is it? Where did you read this, I'd be interested in seeing their data
since I've never really seen a definitive answer for what causes this.
I've seen lots of speculation on causes (usually old extract), but I think
this is the first time I've heard "lack of nutrients after fermentation".
John.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:08:38
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> Is it? Where did you read this, I'd be interested in seeing their data
> since I've never really seen a definitive answer for what causes this.
> I've seen lots of speculation on causes (usually old extract), but I think
> this is the first time I've heard "lack of nutrients after fermentation".
I'm starting to think it's an acetaldehyde issue, which will resolve
itself, but here an old link:
http://tinyurl.com/ymdk35
I was searching around before posting and came up with that first. I
wasn't recording everything because I wasn't expect anybody to ask about
it. My assumption going in to this was the yeast didn't have enough
nutrients, and I had wondered if adding nutrient when bottling would
prevent the off flavor.
To be honest, we can probably sort this out by pitching some of this
slurry I'm about to harvest into a gallon of sugar water.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 11:10:16
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> I was searching around before posting and came up with that first. I
> wasn't recording everything because I wasn't expect anybody to ask about
> it. My assumption going in to this was the yeast didn't have enough
> nutrients, and I had wondered if adding nutrient when bottling would
> prevent the off flavor.
You have some other issue than sugar used at priming. I've not followed
the thread close enough to know what that might be, but for sure it
wasn't table sugar related.
>
> To be honest, we can probably sort this out by pitching some of this
> slurry I'm about to harvest into a gallon of sugar water.
What would that prove exactly? That you pitched a crapload of yeast to a
sugar solution? Unless you wash the yeast to get rid of any trub and
leftover beer, you would have characteristics from those in the sugar
after it ferments. I have carried out sugar fermentations and can attest
that cidery was not an aromatic character after the ferment. It was
alcoholic and a bit fruity due to the very hot ferment I put it through.
Cheers,
Mike
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 03:12:09
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Sat, 21 2006 02:08:38 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> Is it? Where did you read this, I'd be interested in seeing their data
>> since I've never really seen a definitive answer for what causes this.
>> I've seen lots of speculation on causes (usually old extract), but I think
>> this is the first time I've heard "lack of nutrients after fermentation".
>
> I'm starting to think it's an acetaldehyde issue, which will resolve
> itself, but here an old link:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ymdk35
>
> I was searching around before posting and came up with that first. I
> wasn't recording everything because I wasn't expect anybody to ask about
> it. My assumption going in to this was the yeast didn't have enough
> nutrients, and I had wondered if adding nutrient when bottling would
> prevent the off flavor.
I don't know who the guy is that posted that. It's not something I've
heard before. Even if he's right, he's talking about nutrient defficiency
in extracts from 12 years ago. I don't think this would apply to an
all grain beer, and probably doesn't apply to extracts anymore either (if
it was ever true in the first place).
I have heard of yeast issues causing acetaldehyde, but it's mainly due to
not giving the yeast a chance to clean up by-products post fermentation. IE
filtering/pasteurizing the beer too early or racking it off a significant
portion of the yeast during fermentation.
What makes you assume that your yeast were low on nutrients?
John.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 07:03:06
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I don't know who the guy is that posted that. It's not something I've
> heard before. Even if he's right, he's talking about nutrient defficiency
> in extracts from 12 years ago. I don't think this would apply to an
> all grain beer, and probably doesn't apply to extracts anymore either (if
> it was ever true in the first place).
It was quite a bit old.
> I have heard of yeast issues causing acetaldehyde, but it's mainly due to
> not giving the yeast a chance to clean up by-products post fermentation. IE
> filtering/pasteurizing the beer too early or racking it off a significant
> portion of the yeast during fermentation.
>
> What makes you assume that your yeast were low on nutrients?
The batch had fully fermented, racked, and lagered for awhile. On top
of this, I added a pack of dry yeast, and I think that was the problem.
If the existing yeast had some fight in them left, I imagine
carbonation would have been uneventful. My thoughts are that the packet
I added caused a problem. I believe the yeast would try to initially
multiply, and could cause a problem given the original yeast would have
depleted some of those nutrients.
I tested one of the beers again and it looks like this particular flavor
is tapering off. I am assuming now it was just a problem with acetaldehyde.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 15:57:06
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Sat, 21 2006 07:03:06 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> The batch had fully fermented, racked, and lagered for awhile. On top
> of this, I added a pack of dry yeast, and I think that was the problem.
> If the existing yeast had some fight in them left, I imagine
> carbonation would have been uneventful. My thoughts are that the packet
> I added caused a problem. I believe the yeast would try to initially
> multiply, and could cause a problem given the original yeast would have
> depleted some of those nutrients.
I don't know why you think this would be an issue. Lots of people have added
additional dry yeast before bottling for carbonation. It doesn't cause
a problem.
John.
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 19:24:13
From: David Edge
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On 19 2006 14:38:19 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net >
wrote:
>> Rather, it's the lack of nutrients after fermentation that causes the
>> yeast to release the compounds that cause the flavor.
>
>Is it? Where did you read this, I'd be interested in seeing their data
>since I've never really seen a definitive answer for what causes this.
>I've seen lots of speculation on causes (usually old extract), but I think
>this is the first time I've heard "lack of nutrients after fermentation".
While I can't give chapter and verse for it, I can add some detail.
The theory is that the yeast has to excrete invertase to break down
the sucrose. Brewers presumably had *some* reason in the past for
using invert rather than sucrose,,,
David Edge, Derby
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 23:18:13
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Fri, 20 2006 19:24:13 GMT, <david.j.edge@ntlworld.com > wrote:
> On 19 2006 14:38:19 GMT, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> Rather, it's the lack of nutrients after fermentation that causes the
>>> yeast to release the compounds that cause the flavor.
>>
>>Is it? Where did you read this, I'd be interested in seeing their data
>>since I've never really seen a definitive answer for what causes this.
>>I've seen lots of speculation on causes (usually old extract), but I think
>>this is the first time I've heard "lack of nutrients after fermentation".
>
> While I can't give chapter and verse for it, I can add some detail.
> The theory is that the yeast has to excrete invertase to break down
> the sucrose. Brewers presumably had *some* reason in the past for
> using invert rather than sucrose,,,
I've heard that theory before, although I don't necessarily believe it. That
doesn't seem to be what the OP above was saying though. That would occur
during fermentation, not after.
John.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:02:12
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> I've heard that theory before, although I don't necessarily believe it. That
> doesn't seem to be what the OP above was saying though. That would occur
> during fermentation, not after.
Well, it is a bottle fermentation. Before adding the sugar and yeast,
the flavor/aroma wasn't present. Or at least it wasn't present in such
a strong magnitude.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 03:04:35
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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On Sat, 21 2006 02:02:12 GMT, <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>> I've heard that theory before, although I don't necessarily believe it. That
>> doesn't seem to be what the OP above was saying though. That would occur
>> during fermentation, not after.
>
> Well, it is a bottle fermentation. Before adding the sugar and yeast,
> the flavor/aroma wasn't present. Or at least it wasn't present in such
> a strong magnitude.
The amount of sugar you use for priming compared to the size of the rest
of the batch is insignificant. I seriously doubt it's going to cause
the flavor you are noticing.
There are a lot of flavor/aroma changes that will occur in the bottles
just from normal aging. If you had some flaw in the batch, it is not
out of the question for it to only show up later after bottling.
John.
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 13:23:15
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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David Edge wrote:
> While I can't give chapter and verse for it, I can add some detail.
> The theory is that the yeast has to excrete invertase to break down
> the sucrose. Brewers presumably had *some* reason in the past for
> using invert rather than sucrose,,,
Ignorance? ;)
----------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:56:43
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Some supplemental notes.
This was an all-grain batch, with 50% of the grist corn malt. I had
lagered it for about 3 months before deciding to bottle. A second batch
had been bottled earlier and doesn't have this taste. There I didn't
add new yeast, but assumed there was enough yeast awake and alive to
restart. I used cane sugar that time as well. I think that was bottled
a little under a month ago, but it hadn't lagered at ~35 for as long.
It is slowly carbonating.
For this batch, I had added some dry yeast a few days before with the
priming sugar. I then bottled with it starting to foam up again.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 08:51:35
From: Dan Listermann
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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With that much corn ( I don't know what corn malt might do - where did you
get it?), you might be confusing cidery with DMS, I don't know.
Why did you prime days before bottling? This will greatly reduce the
carbonation level.
Dan
"Adam Preble" <rockobonaparte@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:vXAZg.825$xF1.656@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Some supplemental notes.
>
> This was an all-grain batch, with 50% of the grist corn malt. I had
> lagered it for about 3 months before deciding to bottle. A second batch
> had been bottled earlier and doesn't have this taste. There I didn't add
> new yeast, but assumed there was enough yeast awake and alive to restart.
> I used cane sugar that time as well. I think that was bottled a little
> under a month ago, but it hadn't lagered at ~35 for as long. It is slowly
> carbonating.
>
> For this batch, I had added some dry yeast a few days before with the
> priming sugar. I then bottled with it starting to foam up again.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 01:59:41
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Dan Listermann wrote:
> With that much corn ( I don't know what corn malt might do - where did you
> get it?), you might be confusing cidery with DMS, I don't know.
Everything I read indicates that can happen with corn, but I boiled this
wort without a lid for two hours. On top of that, a corn flavor was
never present in either this batch or the other one that had fermented
off the same wort.
> Why did you prime days before bottling? This will greatly reduce the
> carbonation level.
I prime my lagers a little in advance to make sure the yeast has the
gusto to carbonate. My first lager failed to carbonate, so I like to
protect myself. I overcompensate by adding a little bit extra sugar.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 11:12:26
From: MDixon
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Some supplemental notes.
>
> This was an all-grain batch, with 50% of the grist corn malt. I had
> lagered it for about 3 months before deciding to bottle. A second batch
> had been bottled earlier and doesn't have this taste. There I didn't
> add new yeast, but assumed there was enough yeast awake and alive to
> restart. I used cane sugar that time as well. I think that was bottled
> a little under a month ago, but it hadn't lagered at ~35 for as long. It
> is slowly carbonating.
>
> For this batch, I had added some dry yeast a few days before with the
> priming sugar. I then bottled with it starting to foam up again.
Hold on a second, let me make sure I have a grasp on the situation. You
are using home malted grains and are trying to attribute an
off-flavor/aroma to sugar used at priming?
Bottom line, it ain't the sugar...
Cheers,
Mike
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 16:51:48
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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MDixon wrote:
> Hold on a second, let me make sure I have a grasp on the situation. You
> are using home malted grains and are trying to attribute an
> off-flavor/aroma to sugar used at priming?
I give up. I made a 10 gallon batch using 50% homemade corn malt and
50% 6-row. They were fermented at the same time with the same yeast and
were OK. They were OK in the secondary as well, where I had them
pressured in kegs and drew from them occasionally. The first batch was
bottled earlier with the existing yeast. The second batch didn't take
to priming sugar alone and needed yeast; it had been resting much
longer. This second one had the off flavor.
At any rate, it looks like it was just acetaldehyde since the flavor is
dropping out over the course of a few days.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 10:06:15
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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MDixon wrote:
> Hold on a second, let me make sure I have a grasp on the situation. You
> are using home malted grains and are trying to attribute an
> off-flavor/aroma to sugar used at priming?
>
> Bottom line, it ain't the sugar...
Astute analysis, Mr. D! Adam, I think you've alreadyt made up your mind
on this, and no amount of discussion is gonna change it.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 04:34:07
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Denny Conn wrote:
> Astute analysis, Mr. D! Adam, I think you've alreadyt made up your mind
> on this, and no amount of discussion is gonna change it.
Well I'm just frustrated that everybody is jumping on the malt, when
this was half of a 10 gallon batched that used it. The first half was
perfectly fine. It was a 50/50 6-row/corn malt mix. If somebody can
prove to me that the 6-row portion all went into the first batch and the
corn into the other, then I'll concede! ;)
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Date: 23 Oct 2006 09:07:29
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Well I'm just frustrated that everybody is jumping on the malt, when
> this was half of a 10 gallon batched that used it. The first half was
> perfectly fine. It was a 50/50 6-row/corn malt mix. If somebody can
> prove to me that the 6-row portion all went into the first batch and the
> corn into the other, then I'll concede! ;)
I certainly don't necessarily blame it on the malt, but I can't blame it
on the sugar, either.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 17:10:06
From: stephen
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> I bottled a lager recently and it came out very cidery. The yeast had
> gone dormant so I had pitched dry yeast. On top of that, I bottled with
> sugar. I think the combination has caused a cidery beer. This doesn't
> scare me off using regular sugar, since I think it was the combination
> that caused this--most of the yeast nutrients probably had excused
> itself during the first two fermentations.
>
> I have a batch I want to bottle this weekend with table sugar again. If
> I add some yeast nutrient with the sugar, will I minimize the risk of a
> cider flavor? In this case, I'm using the yeast from the same carboy
> since it still seems awake.
The amount of sugar would have had to be more than 1/3 of your
fermentables to cause it to taste cidery in my experience. Stale extract
as previously mentioned or acetylhyde (green apple flavor) mistaken as
cidery (I haven't done any lagers due to a lack of equipment, but don't
you have to raise the temp for a day or two to take care of off products
by the yeast?).
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 07:12:04
From: mike g
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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Adam Preble wrote:
> Some supplemental notes.
>
> This was an all-grain batch, with 50% of the grist corn malt. I had
> lagered it for about 3 months before deciding to bottle. A second batch
> had been bottled earlier and doesn't have this taste. There I didn't
> add new yeast, but assumed there was enough yeast awake and alive to
> restart. I used cane sugar that time as well. I think that was bottled
> a little under a month ago, but it hadn't lagered at ~35 for as long.
> It is slowly carbonating.
>
> For this batch, I had added some dry yeast a few days before with the
> priming sugar. I then bottled with it starting to foam up again.
Corn malt? I haven't used it myself, but I found this quote in a BYO
article on making your own malt:
"malted corn will produce a disagreeable cidery flavor if it
exceeds 20 percent"
from the article located here: http://byo.com/feature/284.html
Also, I prime every batch with cane sugar - light ales, dark ales,
lagers, no problems yet.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:01:02
From: Adam Preble
Subject: Re: Can I use cane sugar with nutrient to avoid cider flavor?
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mike g wrote:
> Corn malt? I haven't used it myself, but I found this quote in a BYO
> article on making your own malt:
> "malted corn will produce a disagreeable cidery flavor if it
> exceeds 20 percent"
I didn't get this in the other 5 gallon carboy of of this stuff, so I am
doubting it. The more I taste it though, the more I think it's more
like apple juice--acetaldehyde.
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