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Main
Date: 23 Jul 2006 09:42:25
From: Mark R
Subject: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Looks like he might be getting back to normal business. I placed my order on
the 10th of July and because of the problems discussed in the previous
thread I figured I would give him some time before I started tracking down
my order. It was a pleasant surprise when I returned home yesterday to find
that my order had arrived. Only 12 days with ground shipping, can't complain
about that.
Now I need to get my CO2 cylinder filled and decide what to brew to properly
break in my new kegging system. :-) :-) :-)
Mark R
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Date: 23 Jul 2006 08:44:29
From:
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Mark R wrote:
> Looks like he might be getting back to normal business. I placed my order on
> the 10th of July and because of the problems discussed in the previous
> thread I figured I would give him some time before I started tracking down
> my order. It was a pleasant surprise when I returned home yesterday to find
> that my order had arrived. Only 12 days with ground shipping, can't complain
> about that.
>
> Now I need to get my CO2 cylinder filled and decide what to brew to properly
> break in my new kegging system. :-) :-) :-)
>
> Mark R
Ahhh, it's nice to see they are still in business. Thats
where I got my first bunch of kegs. A while back they had this CRAZY
deal going on on ebay. They had a picture of several pallets of them
stacked five or six high and and I couldn't even count how deep. They
were going for around 20 to 30 bucks apiece. Yeah! To good to pass up
so I got six.
Steve
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Date: 23 Jul 2006 23:50:21
From: Isaac
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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smhoneydo@aol.com wrote:
> Mark R wrote:
> > Looks like he might be getting back to normal business. I placed my order on
> > the 10th of July and because of the problems discussed in the previous
> > thread I figured I would give him some time before I started tracking down
> > my order. It was a pleasant surprise when I returned home yesterday to find
> > that my order had arrived. Only 12 days with ground shipping, can't complain
> > about that.
> >
> > Now I need to get my CO2 cylinder filled and decide what to brew to properly
> > break in my new kegging system. :-) :-) :-)
> >
> > Mark R
>
>
> Ahhh, it's nice to see they are still in business. Thats
> where I got my first bunch of kegs. A while back they had this CRAZY
> deal going on on ebay. They had a picture of several pallets of them
> stacked five or six high and and I couldn't even count how deep. They
> were going for around 20 to 30 bucks apiece. Yeah! To good to pass up
> so I got six.
>
> Steve
I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
Isaac
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:13:59
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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On 23 Jul 2006 23:50:21 -0700, <isaacsorge@gmail.com > wrote:
> I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
> homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
> of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
Here we go again.
John.
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Date: 26 Jul 2006 10:10:33
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnec9lgu.bg6.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On 23 Jul 2006 23:50:21 -0700, <isaacsorge@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
> > homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
> > of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
>
> Here we go again.
And all I wanted to do was let the group know that Brewers Discount seemed
to be back to normal operation. Mama Mia!
Mark R
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 08:24:43
From: Craig Bennett
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Isn't that stealing?
"Isaac" <isaacsorge@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1153723821.414896.198980@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> smhoneydo@aol.com wrote:
>> Mark R wrote:
>> > Looks like he might be getting back to normal business. I placed my
>> > order on
>> > the 10th of July and because of the problems discussed in the previous
>> > thread I figured I would give him some time before I started tracking
>> > down
>> > my order. It was a pleasant surprise when I returned home yesterday to
>> > find
>> > that my order had arrived. Only 12 days with ground shipping, can't
>> > complain
>> > about that.
>> >
>> > Now I need to get my CO2 cylinder filled and decide what to brew to
>> > properly
>> > break in my new kegging system. :-) :-) :-)
>> >
>> > Mark R
>>
>>
>> Ahhh, it's nice to see they are still in business. Thats
>> where I got my first bunch of kegs. A while back they had this CRAZY
>> deal going on on ebay. They had a picture of several pallets of them
>> stacked five or six high and and I couldn't even count how deep. They
>> were going for around 20 to 30 bucks apiece. Yeah! To good to pass up
>> so I got six.
>>
>> Steve
>
> I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
> homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
> of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
>
> Isaac
>
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 09:54:49
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Craig Bennett wrote:
> Isn't that stealing?
[Webster] stealing: (1) To take, and carry away, feloniously; to take
without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal
the personal goods of another. (2) To take, and carry away, feloniously;
to take without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to
steal the personal goods of another. (3) To gain by insinuating arts or
covert means. (4) To get into one's power gradually and by imperceptible
degrees; to take possession of by a gradual and imperceptible
appropriation; -- with away. (5) To accomplish in a concealed or
unobserved manner; to try to carry out secretly; as, to steal a look.
None of those seem to apply to me. Maybe #4?
OTOH, do you remember the days when you had to pay a $0.05 deposit on the
glass bottle that contained a soft drink? If someone threw that bottle out
of their car window rather than returning it, would you say they were
stealing, or just being a pig? Would you say the antique dealers who are
currently selling those bottles are stealing?
Technically, all of those glass bottles and the steel kegs belong to some
Coca Cola bottling company (or similar). In a lot of cases, it is even
embossed right into the steel --- "Property of Coca Cola".
When someone demands a deposit in order to give you physical control of
their property, aren't they legally implying that they are both (1) willing
to sell that item for that price, and (2) willing to buy it back for the
same price? There is no "contract" between you that says you have to
return it within any given time frame. You do not "own" the item, but the
owner (probably) has no legal recourse if you should decide to keep it
permanently. [However, that might not be true if you should *damage* his
property!]
These make interesting legal questions. Maybe we should submit them to
Judge Judy! [Sorry for those of you who have no idea who she is. OTOH,
perhaps *you* are the lucky ones!]
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 15:29:14
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:54:49 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> Craig Bennett wrote:
>
>> Isn't that stealing?
>
> [Webster] stealing: (1) To take, and carry away, feloniously; to take
> without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal
> the personal goods of another. (2) To take, and carry away, feloniously;
> to take without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to
> steal the personal goods of another.
>
> None of those seem to apply to me. Maybe #4?
Both of the above apply. Paying a deposit does not mean you own the item.
> OTOH, do you remember the days when you had to pay a $0.05 deposit on the
> glass bottle that contained a soft drink? If someone threw that bottle out
> of their car window rather than returning it, would you say they were
> stealing, or just being a pig? Would you say the antique dealers who are
> currently selling those bottles are stealing?
That is a completely different situation. In that case, you were sold the
bottle. They are just offering a $.05 incentive for you to return it so
that it can be recycled or reused. If you don't want their $.05 then
you can do anything you want with the bottle since you own it.
When you pay a deposit on a keg, you do not own the keg. They are only
selling you the beer, not the keg itself. New corny kegs cost around $80.
> Technically, all of those glass bottles and the steel kegs belong to some
> Coca Cola bottling company (or similar). In a lot of cases, it is even
> embossed right into the steel --- "Property of Coca Cola".
The kegs do, but the bottles don't.
> When someone demands a deposit in order to give you physical control of
> their property, aren't they legally implying that they are both (1) willing
> to sell that item for that price, and (2) willing to buy it back for the
> same price?
Absolutely not. Paying the deposit is in no way the same thing as
purchasing the keg. The deposit on a corny is $10, brand new corny kegs
cost $80+. Do you really thing they're going to sell everyone kegs for
$10? That would be stupid.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 11:02:36
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> That is a completely different situation. In that case, you were sold the
> bottle. They are just offering a $.05 incentive for you to return it so
> that it can be recycled or reused. If you don't want their $.05 then
> you can do anything you want with the bottle since you own it.
How on earth do you figure that? A deposit is a deposit, regardless of
whether it is $1000 or $0.05. If I accept your reasoning, I could easily
argue that the deposit for a keg is the same as that for a bottle, and that
they in fact *did" sell me the keg, and are offering a $10 "incentive" for
me to return it to them. You and I both know that is nonsense. The same
applies to the bottles, or *did* apply back when the cost of manufacturing
a glass bottle was more than the cost of the cola inside it!
> When you pay a deposit on a keg, you do not own the keg. They are only
> selling you the beer, not the keg itself. New corny kegs cost around $80.
I never said you own the keg. In fact, I have emphasized repeatedly that
you do *not* own the keg. [BTW: they would be selling "Coca Cola", not
beer.]
> The kegs do, but the bottles don't.
Once again, a deposit is a deposit. You did *not* own the bottle the soda
came in. Perhaps that changed sometime later when glass bottles became
much cheaper to manufacturer, but not in the early days, not for those
bottles that are now being sold as antique collectibles.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 16:24:07
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:02:36 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> That is a completely different situation. In that case, you were sold the
>> bottle. They are just offering a $.05 incentive for you to return it so
>> that it can be recycled or reused. If you don't want their $.05 then
>> you can do anything you want with the bottle since you own it.
>
> How on earth do you figure that? A deposit is a deposit, regardless of
> whether it is $1000 or $0.05.
The $.05 isn't a deposit. At least not anymore. You don't even see
returnable bottles that often. The $.05 thing per can/bottle is just
a recycling incentive.
Even back in the day when it was a deposit, there is still a big difference
between keeping a glass bottle and an $80 corny keg ($100+ for Sankey kegs).
>> When you pay a deposit on a keg, you do not own the keg. They are only
>> selling you the beer, not the keg itself. New corny kegs cost around $80.
>
> I never said you own the keg. In fact, I have emphasized repeatedly that
> you do *not* own the keg. [BTW: they would be selling "Coca Cola", not
> beer.]
In this context, it's the same thing. The 1000 other times we've had
this discussion with someone trying to justify stealing kegs, it's been
Sankey kegs. Same principle for soda cornies though.
Personally, I don't care if someone wants to steal kegs from a brewery or
soda company. Why should I? I just get tired of hearing people come up
with lame justifications for why it's OK. If you want to steal kegs,
then steal kegs. Just don't try and claim it isn't theft. We get
tired of hearing about it on here.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:08:55
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>Personally, I don't care if someone wants to steal kegs from a brewery or
>soda company. Why should I? I just get tired of hearing people come up
>with lame justifications for why it's OK. If you want to steal kegs,
>then steal kegs. Just don't try and claim it isn't theft. We get
>tired of hearing about it on here.
Ayup.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 12:25:05
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> The $.05 isn't a deposit. At least not anymore. You don't even see
> returnable bottles that often. The $.05 thing per can/bottle is just
> a recycling incentive.
It *was* a deposit, and if you did not return that bottle, let's say for
example that you decided to put a flower in it, then by your logic, you
*were* stealing it.
> Even back in the day when it was a deposit, there is still a big
> difference between keeping a glass bottle and an $80 corny keg ($100+ for
> Sankey kegs).
The monetary difference is not significant. You cannot call it stealing in
one case, but not in the other.
> Personally, I don't care if someone wants to steal kegs from a brewery or
> soda company. Why should I? I just get tired of hearing people come up
> with lame justifications for why it's OK. If you want to steal kegs,
> then steal kegs. Just don't try and claim it isn't theft. We get
> tired of hearing about it on here.
Sorry. There is no justification for calling it theft. Look at that
definition of "stealing" again.
I am not a lawyer, but there are some rather obvious and simple principles
of law involved here. Paying a deposit for an item is an implied contract.
The only stipulation to that contract is that the deposit will be returned
when the item is returned in undamaged condition. There is no implied
timeline for its return, nor are there any implied restrictions on the use
of that item, unless these stipulations are agreed to as part of that
contract.
I can assure you that if *I* were allowing someone to take possession of
*my* property, I would either (1) explicitly state such items as how long
they could keep it and what they could do with it, or (2) demand a deposit
sufficiently large that I would not really care whether it was returned or
not! Evidently, the "Coca Cola" company, which certainly has many more
lawyers than I have, is either not concerned about such things, or is
satisfied with the provisions of the original contract. Since I have a
good understanding of the accounting principle of depreciation, I have a
pretty good idea which of those is applicable.
"Possession" is not the same as, and does not imply "ownership". One does
not acquire the right to damage the item, such as by making permanent
modifications to it, thereby making it unsuitable for purposes of the
actual owner. For example, cutting the top off a beer keg to transform it
into a boil kettle makes it rather unsuitable as a beer keg. If this is
the point you are trying to make, then we are in complete agreement.
Otherwise, just who is this "we" to whom you refer? Do you have a mouse in
your pocket, or have you appointed yourself as the UseNet police? I would
suggest that "you" get a better understanding of the law before you accuse
someone of stealing. There are some *other* aspects of law you apparently
do not understand. I personally get tired of hearing lame claims that one
is breaking the law (civil or moral) just because they don't play by the
rules some other party wants to impose.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 17:44:19
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:25:05 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> The $.05 isn't a deposit. At least not anymore. You don't even see
>> returnable bottles that often. The $.05 thing per can/bottle is just
>> a recycling incentive.
>
> It *was* a deposit, and if you did not return that bottle, let's say for
> example that you decided to put a flower in it, then by your logic, you
> *were* stealing it.
Clearly that is different than what I was talking about then. You were
referring historically, I was speaking about today. Two different things.
>> Even back in the day when it was a deposit, there is still a big
>> difference between keeping a glass bottle and an $80 corny keg ($100+ for
>> Sankey kegs).
>
> The monetary difference is not significant. You cannot call it stealing in
> one case, but not in the other.
Again, we were talking about different things. In todays world, it is
not a deposit, therefore it is not stealing. It may have been in the
past. I don't know, that's not what I was referring to.
>> Personally, I don't care if someone wants to steal kegs from a brewery or
>> soda company. Why should I? I just get tired of hearing people come up
>> with lame justifications for why it's OK. If you want to steal kegs,
>> then steal kegs. Just don't try and claim it isn't theft. We get
>> tired of hearing about it on here.
>
> Sorry. There is no justification for calling it theft.
Other than the fact that it is a theft? There may have been no specific
restriction put on the time to return it, but you can't just make the
time infinite then. Planning on never returning it and stealing it
are the same thing.
BTW, many breweries these days are starting to put restrictions in place
because the theft of kegs has become a real problem. Coca-cola, Bud,
Coors, etc might not notice. But an $80 corny or $100+ Sankey starts to
get significant to your local microbrewery. The last time I bought a
keg of beer from a local microbrewery they had me sign a contract stating
that I would return the keg within 90 days or they would charge my
credit card for the full value.
Clearly your argument that if they charged you a $10 deposit then it implied
that they would be willing to sell you the same keg for $10 is false. The
value of the keg is much higher than the deposit.
> I am not a lawyer, but there are some rather obvious and simple principles
> of law involved here. Paying a deposit for an item is an implied contract.
> The only stipulation to that contract is that the deposit will be returned
> when the item is returned in undamaged condition. There is no implied
> timeline for its return, nor are there any implied restrictions on the use
> of that item, unless these stipulations are agreed to as part of that
> contract.
It is also implied that the timeline is not "forever".
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 13:13:50
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> Other than the fact that it is a theft?
Not according to the definition in Webster. Sorry, John, but I do not
recognize your authority to redefine this word just because it suits your
purpose or psyche.
> There may have been no specific restriction put on the time to return it,
> but you can't just make the time infinite then. Planning on never
> returning it and stealing it are the same thing.
Ah! Let me assure you I have no intention of keeping them forever! Just to
make sure of this, I will stipulate in my will that they be returned to the
Coca Cola Co. in a completely unharmed condition. This is assuming, of
course, that they also return to my estate the deposit paid for them.
Which I sincerely doubt, BTW, since they no longer use these things, and
especially since recovering them would result in more accounting fees than
the kegs are currently worth! You see, I will also stipulate in my will
that the IRS be informed that they are repossessing some items that they
have previously depreciated to zero. You know, now that I think about it,
I might could get Coca Cola to pay *me* to keep quiet about this! <grin >
> BTW, many breweries these days are starting to put restrictions in place
> because the theft of kegs has become a real problem. Coca-cola, Bud,
> Coors, etc might not notice. But an $80 corny or $100+ Sankey starts to
> get significant to your local microbrewery. The last time I bought a
> keg of beer from a local microbrewery they had me sign a contract stating
> that I would return the keg within 90 days or they would charge my
> credit card for the full value.
Good for them! Like I said, that's what I would do if it were my property!
John, I don't doubt for a minute that microbreweries face a problem in this
regard. The solution for them is obvious, and it sounds like some of them
have figured this out.
I have seen with my own eyes Sankey kegs being cut up for various purposes,
and I do not approve of this. Personally, I call this "vandalism".
[Webster: The spirit or conduct of the Vandals; ferocious cruelty;
hostility to the arts and literature, or willful destruction or defacement
of any object of beauty or value.] Let's just be a little more careful
with that "theft" word, shall we?
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 18:58:23
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:13:50 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> Other than the fact that it is a theft?
>
> Not according to the definition in Webster. Sorry, John, but I do not
> recognize your authority to redefine this word just because it suits your
> purpose or psyche.
And I don't recognize your authority to interpret law. Go tell a lawyer that
you are going to pay the deposit for an item you don't own with the intention
of keeping it forever. See what they call it.
> Ah! Let me assure you I have no intention of keeping them forever! Just to
> make sure of this, I will stipulate in my will that they be returned to the
> Coca Cola Co. in a completely unharmed condition.
So you've done this yourself? No wonder you're being so defensive about it.
As I said before, personally I don't care. I just get tired of the stupid
excuses people try and use to make themselves feel better about it.
John.
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:14:11
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> And I don't recognize your authority to interpret law.
Fair enough. But my ability to interpret law is obviously better than your
ability to read and understand a dictionary.
> Go tell a lawyer that you are going to pay the deposit for an item you
> don't own with the intention of keeping it forever. See what they call
> it.
I suspect they would call it "good for business".
> So you've done this yourself? No wonder you're being so defensive about
> it.
No, as a matter of fact, I have not. See my post to some idiot named George
who criticized without gaining the facts.
> As I said before, personally I don't care. I just get tired of the stupid
> excuses people try and use to make themselves feel better about it.
Don't put yourself into the same category.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 15:08:46
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
>Craig Bennett wrote:
>> Isn't that stealing?
>
>[Webster] stealing: (1) To take, and carry away, feloniously; to take
>without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal
>the personal goods of another.
>None of those seem to apply to me. Maybe #4?
That one qualifies.
>Technically, all of those glass bottles and the steel kegs belong to some
>Coca Cola bottling company (or similar). In a lot of cases, it is even
>embossed right into the steel --- "Property of Coca Cola".
Exactly. The use of the word "technically" is not necessary.
>When someone demands a deposit in order to give you physical control of
>their property, aren't they legally implying that they are both (1) willing
>to sell that item for that price, and (2) willing to buy it back for the
>same price?
No. It "implies" that it is the property of the company.
If they're still being used, the company has to replace then
at a cost significantly higher than the deposit amount.
To use an analogy, the fact that I have theft insurance
doesn't give somebody the right to steal my car, even if they
pay my deductible.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 10:31:17
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
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Joel wrote:
> No. It "implies" that it is the property of the company.
> If they're still being used, the company has to replace then
> at a cost significantly higher than the deposit amount.
> To use an analogy, the fact that I have theft insurance
> doesn't give somebody the right to steal my car, even if they
> pay my deductible.
That is not an analogous situation in the slightest! Not unless you are
suggesting that I tell the thief he can legally take possession of my
property if he is willing to pay me a deposit equal to the amount of my
insurance deductible. In that case, of course, he would *not* be stealing
it, and no court in the world would reasonably convict him of that crime.
My point is simply that the owner of the property has released control of
that property for use by another party. There were no stipulations as to
how that property might be used, the possessing party is under no
obligation to return it within any specified period of time, and there are
no restrictions on transferring possession of that property to yet another
(third) party. All that being said, the possessor does not have the right
to damage (or "alter") the property, just like your (supposed) car thief
would still be liable for any damages to my car while in his possession.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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Date: 24 Jul 2006 10:23:09
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Technically, all of those glass bottles and the steel kegs belong to some
> Coca Cola bottling company (or similar). In a lot of cases, it is even
> embossed right into the steel --- "Property of Coca Cola".
Wrong...the bottles belong to YOU! The deposit is to encourage
recycling. As far as I'm aware the bottle do not get returned to the
bottling companies.
---------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.
Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 12:33:45
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Denny Conn wrote:
> Wrong...the bottles belong to YOU! The deposit is to encourage
> recycling. As far as I'm aware the bottle do not get returned to the
> bottling companies.
Sorry, Denny, but back in the days when there *was* a deposit on bottles,
they *were* returned to the company and refilled with more product. This
was primarily because the cost of the bottle was more than the cost of the
product. Eventually, glass bottles got cheaper (and were replaced by cans,
plastics, and so forth), and the concept of a bottle deposit disappeared.
In some localities, this was changed into a recycling thing, but this was
certainly not universal.
But history is still history. Bottles did have a deposit on them, and when
you bought the Coca Cola (or whatever) you did not technically own the
bottle it came in.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:14:38
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:24:43 -0400, <craig_b@nospam.nowhere.com > wrote:
> Isn't that stealing?
That's why they're cheap.
John.
|
| | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 11:17:27
From: George
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Isaac wrote:
>
> I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
> homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
> of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
>
> Isaac
>
Isaac, your boss probably doesn't charge a deposit on his pitchers and
glasses so you should feel free to take as many of those as you may
want, too. He probably doesn't charge for use of the bathroom so It is
okay for you to remove any fixtures or supplies that you may want from
there, too. While you're at it take home a few bar stools. Wow, you
sure fell into a sweet deal!
George
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 20:45:59
From: Isaac
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
George wrote:
> Isaac wrote:
>
> >
> > I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
> > homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
> > of their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
> >
> > Isaac
> >
>
> Isaac, your boss probably doesn't charge a deposit on his pitchers and
> glasses so you should feel free to take as many of those as you may
> want, too. He probably doesn't charge for use of the bathroom so It is
> okay for you to remove any fixtures or supplies that you may want from
> there, too. While you're at it take home a few bar stools. Wow, you
> sure fell into a sweet deal!
> George
Ah yes, the sarcasm. I'm sure if I my boss was to pay a deposit on
those items, she would have no problem with me reimbursing her the
deposit in order to borrow them for a week or two, assuming they were
returned unharmed.
Of course, in your example, I'd be blatantly stealing the items as no
deposit is paid and my boss hasn't expressly given me permission to
take them home, nor is any arrangement made to return them.
Isaac
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| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2006 05:01:59
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
"Isaac" <isaacsorge@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1153799159.099937.219020@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
I actually wasn't going to weigh in to this debate because of the baises
posted. However I have two statements and one question.
As some seem quite fond of quoting wikipedia, one obvious word left out is
'deposit' so, to quote wikipedia,
a.. A deposit is also money paid by someone who rents or lends a good, e.g.
a car or a shopping cart. The money is returned when the good is returned,
after deduction of any rent not paid yet, and compensation for small damage.
In some cases, the deposit may not actually be collected, but a preliminary
hold may be placed on a credit card which functions as a deposit. Small
deposits are sometimes required on beverage containers in order to promote
recycling via container deposit legislation.
a.. A deposit can also be money paid up front when committing to buy a
product or service (similar to down payment). In the event that the product
or service is actually purchased, the deposit is deducted from the total
payable; if the product or service is not purchased, the purchaser forfeits
the deposit.
Second. On my kegs it states that 'This the property of ....... ' If that
ain't a disclaimer, I don't know what is.
And one question.
Do they still make Corny Kegs?
Steve W (in Aus)
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| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2006 07:10:59
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Steve/Aus wrote:
> As some seem quite fond of quoting wikipedia, one obvious word left out is
> 'deposit' so, to quote wikipedia,
> [...]
Thanks!
> Do they still make Corny Kegs?
Somebody does. Brand new ones are available on the market. For example:
http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=18196 [NAJASC]
And of course, there is:
http://www.amazon.com/Cornelius-Keg-System-with/dp/B0007IDUVQ/sr=8-2/qid=1153915496/ref=sr_1_2/103-1372851-7231841?ie=UTF8
[NAANEASC]
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
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| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2006 22:55:41
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 05:01:59 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit > wrote:
> Do they still make Corny Kegs?
You can still buy new corny kegs (they're really expensive though), but I
don't know if they are left over stock or if they are still actively
making them.
John.
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| | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2006 10:10:12
From: Mark R
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrnecfsr3.c0f.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 05:01:59 GMT, <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit>
wrote:
> > Do they still make Corny Kegs?
>
> You can still buy new corny kegs (they're really expensive though), but I
> don't know if they are left over stock or if they are still actively
> making them.
I think I ran across some info on the web that indicated that there is still
one company actually making new kegs. Don't remember the who, when, or
where.
Mark R
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| |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 20:39:38
From: Isaac
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
> My point is simply that the owner of the property has released control of
> that property for use by another party. There were no stipulations as to
> how that property might be used, the possessing party is under no
> obligation to return it within any specified period of time, and there are
> no restrictions on transferring possession of that property to yet another
> (third) party. All that being said, the possessor does not have the right
> to damage (or "alter") the property, just like your (supposed) car thief
> would still be liable for any damages to my car while in his possession.
>
> --
> Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
> http://www.doubleluck.com
I certainly didn't mean to start such a debate. I should clarify - the
deal is I pay the bar the $10 deposit, use the kegs for a batch or two,
and then return them cleaned to be returned into rotation at Coke. I'm
not buying them per se, just renting them. This is more or less a
temporary solution until I can get enough money to buy my own, which
probably won't be for some time.
Isaac
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| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2006 07:25:27
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Isaac wrote:
> I certainly didn't mean to start such a debate. I should clarify - the
> deal is I pay the bar the $10 deposit, use the kegs for a batch or two,
> and then return them cleaned to be returned into rotation at Coke. I'm
> not buying them per se, just renting them. This is more or less a
> temporary solution until I can get enough money to buy my own, which
> probably won't be for some time.
The subject is practically a 100% guarantee to cause a debate. I've seen it
before, and I'm sure I'll see it again. Like most of the time, my advice
is very simple: Don't worry about it. Life is too short to worry about
such insignificant junk. Besides, worrying is bad for your beer, right?
The vast majority of people in this world can easily determine for
themselves whether or not they are doing anything "wrong". It seems to me
that about 99% of the troubles in this old world are caused by those who
think *they* should be able to decide what is right and what is wrong for
everyone else.
BTW: Where do you live that Coke still uses those kegs? I thought they
stopped using them sometime back in the late 1980's.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 12:27:46
From: George
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
>I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
>homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
>for their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
>Isaac
Sorry Larry, this post and the responses to it are what I was
responding to (or thought I was),was not my intention to offend anyone
or to imply that those who obtain legal kegs are somehow doing
something illegal.
George
Larry Bristol wrote:
> George wrote:
>
> > Bottom line is, the owners of the kegs sell you the contents and ask a
> > small deposit as a good faith gesture that you will return the keg and
> > a small incentive for you to do so, the vast majority of honest people
> > do, there are however a few who think like you do and will justify
> > their actions in their own minds, any discussion on this board is
> > unlikely to change them.
>
> You're quite right that you are unlikely to change my mind, especially not
> with moralistic drivel such as the above, that demonstrates your
> willingness to pass judgment without first ascertaining the truth. Even
> Judge Judy seeks the truth before making her rulings.
>
> Let's set the record straight, shall we?
>
> The "bottom line" is that the Coca Cola company did not sell me any Coca
> Cola in the kegs I happen to possess. The kegs were quite empty other than
> the fact that they were somewhat dirty, and they knew full well I had no
> intention of ever returning them. You see, these kegs were destined for
> the scrap heap. I *bought* them as scrap, even though they first tried to
> give them to me, and then refurbished them into a usable condition.
>
> To tell the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if the money I gave them went
> into their own pockets rather than into the company coffers. But that is
> probably just as well, as the accounting costs for that transaction
> undoubtedly exceeded the amount of money changing hands in the first place.
>
> So get off your high horse, George. Your "holier than thou" attitude does
> not impress me in the least. Next time, get the facts straight before you
> criticize someone.
>
> --
> Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
> http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:47:36
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
George wrote:
> Sorry Larry, this post and the responses to it are what I was
> responding to (or thought I was),was not my intention to offend anyone
> or to imply that those who obtain legal kegs are somehow doing
> something illegal.
Thank you, George. Apology accepted. And I am equally sorry for my rather
"short" response to you. It was totally uncalled for.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:35:47
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
On 24 Jul 2006 12:27:46 -0700, <gschwab@florida-knife.com > wrote:
>>I recently started working at a local bar and while talking about
>>homebrew my boss agreed to give me four or five corny kegs for the cost
>>for their deposit to Coke ($10 per keg). Can't beat that deal!
>
>>Isaac
>
> Sorry Larry, this post and the responses to it are what I was
> responding to (or thought I was),was not my intention to offend anyone
> or to imply that those who obtain legal kegs are somehow doing
> something illegal.
Don't worry about it George. I thought it was fairly clear what you
were responding to. I think Larry just got confused, or was assuming
everybody was talking about him.
John.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 10:54:18
From: George
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Larry Bristol wrote:
> Craig Bennett wrote:
>
> > Isn't that stealing?
>
> [Webster] stealing: (1) To take, and carry away, feloniously; to take
> without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal
> the personal goods of another. (2) To take, and carry away, feloniously;
> to take without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to
> steal the personal goods of another. (3) To gain by insinuating arts or
> covert means. (4) To get into one's power gradually and by imperceptible
> degrees; to take possession of by a gradual and imperceptible
> appropriation; -- with away. (5) To accomplish in a concealed or
> unobserved manner; to try to carry out secretly; as, to steal a look.
>
> None of those seem to apply to me. Maybe #4?
>
I would argue that they all apply to you except for perhaps #4
> OTOH, do you remember the days when you had to pay a $0.05 deposit on the
> glass bottle that contained a soft drink? If someone threw that bottle out
> of their car window rather than returning it, would you say they were
> stealing,
Yes
> or just being a pig?
Yes
> Would you say the antique dealers who are
> currently selling those bottles are stealing?
>
Dealing in stolen property for sure, problem is the value of these
items is so low no one ever did or would press the issue but that does
not change the fact that they were stolen.
> Technically, all of those glass bottles and the steel kegs belong to some
> Coca Cola bottling company (or similar).
True
> In a lot of cases, it is even
> embossed right into the steel --- "Property of Coca Cola".
>
> When someone demands a deposit in order to give you physical control of
> their property, aren't they legally implying that they are both (1) willing
> to sell that item for that price, and (2) willing to buy it back for the
> same price? There is no "contract" between you that says you have to
> return it within any given time frame. You do not "own" the item, but the
> owner (probably) has no legal recourse if you should decide to keep it
> permanently. [However, that might not be true if you should *damage* his
> property!]
>
Soooo if I rent you a house and charge you a security deposit equal to
two months rent you would take that to mean that I would sell you the
house for that amount??
When you rent a car they place a hold on your credit card for a pre
determined amount as security , Just try keeping the car and see what
happens.
Bottom line is, the owners of the kegs sell you the contents and ask a
small deposit as a good faith gesture that you will return the keg and
a small incentive for you to do so, the vast majority of honest people
do, there are however a few who think like you do and will justify
their actions in their own minds, any discussion on this board is
unlikely to change them.
George
> These make interesting legal questions. Maybe we should submit them to
> Judge Judy! [Sorry for those of you who have no idea who she is. OTOH,
> perhaps *you* are the lucky ones!]
>
> --
> Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
> http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 13:41:58
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
George wrote:
> Bottom line is, the owners of the kegs sell you the contents and ask a
> small deposit as a good faith gesture that you will return the keg and
> a small incentive for you to do so, the vast majority of honest people
> do, there are however a few who think like you do and will justify
> their actions in their own minds, any discussion on this board is
> unlikely to change them.
You're quite right that you are unlikely to change my mind, especially not
with moralistic drivel such as the above, that demonstrates your
willingness to pass judgment without first ascertaining the truth. Even
Judge Judy seeks the truth before making her rulings.
Let's set the record straight, shall we?
The "bottom line" is that the Coca Cola company did not sell me any Coca
Cola in the kegs I happen to possess. The kegs were quite empty other than
the fact that they were somewhat dirty, and they knew full well I had no
intention of ever returning them. You see, these kegs were destined for
the scrap heap. I *bought* them as scrap, even though they first tried to
give them to me, and then refurbished them into a usable condition.
To tell the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if the money I gave them went
into their own pockets rather than into the company coffers. But that is
probably just as well, as the accounting costs for that transaction
undoubtedly exceeded the amount of money changing hands in the first place.
So get off your high horse, George. Your "holier than thou" attitude does
not impress me in the least. Next time, get the facts straight before you
criticize someone.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:02:40
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:41:58 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> The "bottom line" is that the Coca Cola company did not sell me any Coca
> Cola in the kegs I happen to possess. The kegs were quite empty other than
> the fact that they were somewhat dirty, and they knew full well I had no
> intention of ever returning them. You see, these kegs were destined for
> the scrap heap. I *bought* them as scrap, even though they first tried to
> give them to me, and then refurbished them into a usable condition.
Buying the kegs from the company as scrap has absolutely nothing to do with
paying a deposit and keeping them. It's not even close to the same
situation. Yes, if you buy them from the company as scrap then they are
perfectly legal. Where do you think all of the legal corny kegs that
homebrewers use come from?
> So get off your high horse, George. Your "holier than thou" attitude does
> not impress me in the least. Next time, get the facts straight before you
> criticize someone.
He wasn't criticizing you, nor was he even talking about your situation. In
fact, given your paragraph above, this entire discussion has absolutely
nothing to do with you.
John.
|
| | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:20:20
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> He wasn't criticizing you, nor was he even talking about your situation.
Come on, John. Read what he said again. He was very personal about his
accusations and criticisms.
> In fact, given your paragraph above, this entire discussion has absolutely
> nothing to do with you.
No, it doesn't have anything to do with me personally. Nor does it have to
do with the vast majority of homebrewers who might have various kegs in
their possession. As I will simply state *ONE* *MORE* *TIME*, let's be a
little more careful with the word "theft" and a LOT more careful about
criticizing someone before knowing the facts.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 19:31:37
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:20:20 -0500, <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> He wasn't criticizing you, nor was he even talking about your situation.
>
> Come on, John. Read what he said again. He was very personal about his
> accusations and criticisms.
George can correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't want to speak for him.
However, it was fairly clear to me from his post that he was talking to
the person getting the kegs from the bar he works at, not you. Up to
that point you never even mentioned that you had any kegs, let alone
how you got them.
>> In fact, given your paragraph above, this entire discussion has absolutely
>> nothing to do with you.
>
> No, it doesn't have anything to do with me personally.
That's not what you said in another post, but OK.
> Nor does it have to
> do with the vast majority of homebrewers who might have various kegs in
> their possession.
True, since I would assume most homebrewers purchase their kegs legally.
> As I will simply state *ONE* *MORE* *TIME*, let's be a
> little more careful with the word "theft" and a LOT more careful about
> criticizing someone before knowing the facts.
IMO, you're just clueless on the legal ramifications. Fair enough. Obviously
we're just wasting our time with this discussion.
John.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2006 14:45:23
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
> [..]
> it was fairly clear to me from his post that he was talking to the person
> getting the kegs from the bar he works at, not you. Up to that point you
> never even mentioned that you had any kegs, let alone how you got them.
Reread this:
Message-ID: <1153763658.104183.318200@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >
in which he says in a response to me:
>> I would argue that they all apply to you except for perhaps #4
and
>> there are however a few who think like you do and will justify
>> their actions in their own minds, any discussion on this board is
>> unlikely to change them.
Still think he was not speaking to me? Is English not your primary
language?
> That's not what you said in another post, but OK.
What post are you referring to, John? I've reread all of them, and the
nearest I can come to anything I said that might in the slightest imply it
might apply to me was my joke about putting it in my will that the kegs be
returned to them.
> True, since I would assume most homebrewers purchase their kegs legally.
I'm not going to go on and on about this. Coming into possession of a keg
by paying a deposit on it *is* legal, whether you think so, or not.
> IMO, you're just clueless on the legal ramifications. Fair enough.
> Obviously we're just wasting our time with this discussion.
At least we agree on that.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2006 10:26:35
From: Isaac
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
>
> BTW: Where do you live that Coke still uses those kegs? I thought they
> stopped using them sometime back in the late 1980's.
>
> --
> Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
> http://www.doubleluck.com
Perhaps I shouldn't say lest someone call the cops ;)
East Coast of Canada. They use syrup boxes for some mixes but Sprite,
ginger ale, and Coke/Diet Coke all come in corny kegs.
Isaac
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2006 12:51:32
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: Brewers Discount...RCB Equipment continued
|
Isaac wrote:
> Perhaps I shouldn't say lest someone call the cops ;)
LOL!
> East Coast of Canada. They use syrup boxes for some mixes but Sprite,
> ginger ale, and Coke/Diet Coke all come in corny kegs.
That's a long way from the Double Luck! :-)
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
|
