| |
Main
Date: 07 Aug 2006 11:35:34
From: Don Levey
Subject: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
Yesterday, I decided to do my first all-grain batch. Well, not the
first, but the last one was about a decade ago so for all intents and
purposes I was starting almost from scratch. Everything *seemed* to
work out well, with a few notable exceptions.
For the mash/lauter tun, I was using a pair of nested buckets a la
Papazian. I mashed at 154F; after an hour I dropped to 152. So far,
so good. I decided to try a batch sparge, as it seemed easier and less
time-consuming. After recirculating about 6 or 7 quarts, though, I
was only getting minimal clarity in the runoff (mostly, the large
chunks stopped coming through). I decided to go ahead, though, and
took just about 6 gallons out for the boil.
My recipe originally called for English Brown malt, but my LHBS
didn't have any and recommended Victory as a replacement. While
I don't know enough to know if this is way off, I do know that
the colour is different, and added anout 1.5 ounces of Black Patent
to compensate.
The boil went well, though I mixed up my bittering and aroma hops.
I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
with the add-in) were the same. Also interestingly, the efficiency
(per StrangeBrew) was just shy of 80%. The last batch I did in '96
was hovering around 62% with fly sparging.
I also decided to use a bucket for primary, rather than a carboy.
Splash splash splash to transfer, pitch, and away we go. After
4 hours I had a nice krausen on top, sort of like a latte made from
chocolate milk and flecks of cocoa. I'm assuming that the cocoa
flecks are grain chunkies that made it through.
Now, I'm not worrying - worrying is bad for the beer (and my blood
pressure). Things just weren't quite the way I expected them is all.
Will the grain pieces contribute to off-flavours, or will they simply
settle out?
Oh, by the way, the recipe was for a Southern English Brown:
British 2-row 6 lbs
Victory 1 lb
British Chocolate 0.5 lb
Black Patent 0.1 lb
Kent Goldings 1 oz for 60 minutes
Fuggles 0.7 oz for 5 minutes
Wyeast 1318 London Ale III
OG 1.041 at pitching
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
|
| |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 12:35:20
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
Don Levey wrote:
> I also decided to use a bucket for primary, rather than a carboy.
> Splash splash splash to transfer, pitch, and away we go. After
> 4 hours I had a nice krausen on top, sort of like a latte made from
> chocolate milk and flecks of cocoa. I'm assuming that the cocoa
> flecks are grain chunkies that made it through.
>
> Now, I'm not worrying - worrying is bad for the beer (and my blood
> pressure). Things just weren't quite the way I expected them is all.
> Will the grain pieces contribute to off-flavours, or will they simply
> settle out?
You're bound to get some interesting differences of opinion on this! My
advice, regardless of what else you might hear, is to not worry!
The problem (for me) is that I cannot see what you are talking about, so
cannot be 100% sure of what it is. A little bit of grain and/or husks
getting all the way through to your fermenter is not going to create a
serious problem, although a *LOT* of it probably would! The damage would
most likely take the form of astringency from leaching tannin out of the
husks.
But, it might be nothing more than spent hops you are seeing. Since we
cannot be sure, I would simply suggest that you let it go, assume it will
settle out, and rack the beer into your secondary as soon as the krausen
settles enough to let you.
You know, beer has been made for thousands of years by people who did not
have nearly the sort of technical knowledge and sophistication that we have
in the modern world. I get the sense that one also has to *TRY* to make a
beer go bad (excluding sanitation issues). All of this technical knowledge
can do is help us make it better and more consistently than they made it
way back when.
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| | |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 13:47:34
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
Larry Bristol <larry.remove@remove.doubleluck.com > writes:
>
> The problem (for me) is that I cannot see what you are talking about, so
> cannot be 100% sure of what it is. A little bit of grain and/or husks
> getting all the way through to your fermenter is not going to create a
> serious problem, although a *LOT* of it probably would! The damage would
> most likely take the form of astringency from leaching tannin out of the
> husks.
>
I should have taken pictures. I wouldn't say a *lot*, where "lot"
would be, say, 20 or more in a cup. It may be that the cloudiness
is grain flour/dust from the grind.
> But, it might be nothing more than spent hops you are seeing. Since we
> cannot be sure, I would simply suggest that you let it go, assume it will
> settle out, and rack the beer into your secondary as soon as the krausen
> settles enough to let you.
>
That's the intent (the first time I'm doing a secondary, and the reason
I wanted that extra half-gallon). The hops were from plugs, so there
may have been some contribution but I think it's mostly grain.
> You know, beer has been made for thousands of years by people who did not
> have nearly the sort of technical knowledge and sophistication that we have
> in the modern world.
That's what I told my wife about childbirth, but somehow that wasn't
much of a help...
> I get the sense that one also has to *TRY* to make a
> beer go bad (excluding sanitation issues). All of this technical knowledge
> can do is help us make it better and more consistently than they made it
> way back when.
>
Mostly I want to *understand* what I'm doing, so that I can be
consistent. Thanks for the help!
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 14:56:45
From: Larry Bristol
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
Don Levey wrote:
> I should have taken pictures. I wouldn't say a *lot*, where "lot"
> would be, say, 20 or more in a cup. It may be that the cloudiness
> is grain flour/dust from the grind.
From what you described, I would say that is very likely the cause of any
cloudiness. And you also indicate that there are clear signs of an active
fermentation, so you will have some cloudiness associated with the yeast in
suspension. 20 or so of these "blobs" in a cup does not sound like a huge
quantity to me. Definitely *NOT* time to panic here! <g >
> That's the intent (the first time I'm doing a secondary, and the reason
> I wanted that extra half-gallon). The hops were from plugs, so there
> may have been some contribution but I think it's mostly grain.
Most likely from the grain. I would expect anything that comes from either
whole hops or plugs to settle out very quickly.
I remember when I put a little "extra" in the primary so I would be able to
completely fill that carboy when I racked it over. Somehow, I just could
not bear the thought of adding a little water to the secondary (to bring
the level up to the neck to minimize the surface space). The silly thing
is that if you do the math, it makes no difference at all! Whether you put
a quart of extra water in the primary or in the secondary, you are still
diluting the beer! It's just a matter of when you do it.
One of the things that never ceases to amaze people is how dramatically your
accuracy in measuring the *VOLUME* of the wort impacts the SG reading. Put
one extra quart of water into a 5 gallon batch, and you lower the SG by 5%!
It's obvious when you think about! So be as accurate as possible when you
add water to bring your volume up to your target (whatever that target
might be).
> That's what I told my wife about childbirth, but somehow that wasn't
> much of a help...
For some reason, women do seem to take childbirth rather personally. :-)
> Mostly I want to *understand* what I'm doing, so that I can be
> consistent.
That's easy! Study, ask questions, and above all, practice, practice,
practice! Well, true "understanding" may actually be an impossibility, but
it's fun for us to *THINK* we know what we're doing, anyway.
> Thanks for the help!
You are very welcome!
--
Larry Bristol --- The Double Luck
http://www.doubleluck.com
|
| |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 17:27:36
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
On 07 Aug 2006 11:35:34 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us > wrote:
> Yesterday, I decided to do my first all-grain batch. Well, not the
> first, but the last one was about a decade ago so for all intents and
> purposes I was starting almost from scratch. Everything *seemed* to
> work out well, with a few notable exceptions.
>
> For the mash/lauter tun, I was using a pair of nested buckets a la
> Papazian.
Is this what you used when you did all-grain before? I started with this
method (I think he calls it Zapap, or something similar), but had nothing but
problems with it. It was really prone to stuck sparges. Eventually I got
so frustrated with it I gave up and went to a cooler/manifold.
> I mashed at 154F; after an hour I dropped to 152. So far,
> so good. I decided to try a batch sparge, as it seemed easier and less
> time-consuming. After recirculating about 6 or 7 quarts, though, I
> was only getting minimal clarity in the runoff (mostly, the large
> chunks stopped coming through). I decided to go ahead, though, and
> took just about 6 gallons out for the boil.
Might just be a side effect of the bucket in a bucket thing. A lot of it
probably has to do with the size/number of holes you drilled.
> My recipe originally called for English Brown malt, but my LHBS
> didn't have any and recommended Victory as a replacement. While
> I don't know enough to know if this is way off, I do know that
> the colour is different, and added anout 1.5 ounces of Black Patent
> to compensate.
>
> The boil went well, though I mixed up my bittering and aroma hops.
>
> I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
> 5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
> gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
> with the add-in) were the same.
That seems really weird. Theoretically, the gravity couldn't have been the
same if the amount of water changed.
> Also interestingly, the efficiency
> (per StrangeBrew) was just shy of 80%. The last batch I did in '96
> was hovering around 62% with fly sparging.
That's believable. 62% is fairly low. Batch sparging is easier to get
right.
> I also decided to use a bucket for primary, rather than a carboy.
> Splash splash splash to transfer, pitch, and away we go. After
> 4 hours I had a nice krausen on top, sort of like a latte made from
> chocolate milk and flecks of cocoa. I'm assuming that the cocoa
> flecks are grain chunkies that made it through.
>
> Now, I'm not worrying - worrying is bad for the beer (and my blood
> pressure). Things just weren't quite the way I expected them is all.
> Will the grain pieces contribute to off-flavours, or will they simply
> settle out?
Grain particles in the boil can leach tannins. I would assume that the
particles will settle out in the fermenter though. I don't think they'll
continue to contribute off-flavors. Anything they did probably already
happened in the boil.
John.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 13:43:39
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > writes:
> On 07 Aug 2006 11:35:34 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> > Yesterday, I decided to do my first all-grain batch. Well, not the
> > first, but the last one was about a decade ago so for all intents and
> > purposes I was starting almost from scratch. Everything *seemed* to
> > work out well, with a few notable exceptions.
> >
> > For the mash/lauter tun, I was using a pair of nested buckets a la
> > Papazian.
>
> Is this what you used when you did all-grain before? I started with this
> method (I think he calls it Zapap, or something similar), but had nothing but
> problems with it. It was really prone to stuck sparges. Eventually I got
> so frustrated with it I gave up and went to a cooler/manifold.
>
I even used the same equipment (replaced a spigot, though). The holes
were fairly small - perhaps 3/32"? Lots of them. The last '96 batch
was an oatmeal stout, and I don't think I had a stuck sparge (though, as
noted, efficiency was poor).
> > I mashed at 154F; after an hour I dropped to 152. So far,
> > so good. I decided to try a batch sparge, as it seemed easier and less
> > time-consuming. After recirculating about 6 or 7 quarts, though, I
> > was only getting minimal clarity in the runoff (mostly, the large
> > chunks stopped coming through). I decided to go ahead, though, and
> > took just about 6 gallons out for the boil.
>
> Might just be a side effect of the bucket in a bucket thing. A lot of it
> probably has to do with the size/number of holes you drilled.
>
That could be. I want a few more batches under my belt before I
go and get a cooler (easier to justify to my wife that way!).
> > I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
> > 5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
> > gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
> > with the add-in) were the same.
>
> That seems really weird. Theoretically, the gravity couldn't have been the
> same if the amount of water changed.
>
I understand. I'd have expected a slight raise, unless I was
driving off some sugars in addition to the water.
> > Also interestingly, the efficiency
> > (per StrangeBrew) was just shy of 80%. The last batch I did in '96
> > was hovering around 62% with fly sparging.
>
> That's believable. 62% is fairly low. Batch sparging is easier to get
> right.
>
With numbers around 80%, I may not need to go back to fly...
> > I also decided to use a bucket for primary, rather than a carboy.
> > Splash splash splash to transfer, pitch, and away we go. After
> > 4 hours I had a nice krausen on top, sort of like a latte made from
> > chocolate milk and flecks of cocoa. I'm assuming that the cocoa
> > flecks are grain chunkies that made it through.
> >
> > Now, I'm not worrying - worrying is bad for the beer (and my blood
> > pressure). Things just weren't quite the way I expected them is all.
> > Will the grain pieces contribute to off-flavours, or will they simply
> > settle out?
>
> Grain particles in the boil can leach tannins. I would assume that the
> particles will settle out in the fermenter though. I don't think they'll
> continue to contribute off-flavors. Anything they did probably already
> happened in the boil.
>
Well, I guess we'll see in a few weeks...
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 17:57:56
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
On 07 Aug 2006 13:43:39 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us > wrote:
>> > I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
>> > 5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
>> > gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
>> > with the add-in) were the same.
>>
>> That seems really weird. Theoretically, the gravity couldn't have been the
>> same if the amount of water changed.
>>
> I understand. I'd have expected a slight raise, unless I was
> driving off some sugars in addition to the water.
I don't think you can drive off sugars during the boil. Were the temps
the same when you measrured the SG, or did you correctly adjust for the
different temps? When you topped up the water to reach 5.5 gallons, did
you make sure that it was evenly dissolved before taking a gravity reading?
This gets a lot of partial boil extract brewers confused, and is the same
principle here. The plain water and wort don't want to mix well together,
and you end up with the heavier wort on the bottom with the water on top.
It can throw off your SG readings. Normally all-grain brewers don't run
into this, but mainly because they don't usually top off after the boil.
I don't think it's anything to really worry about though. The gravity
difference between 6 gallons and 5.5 gallons should be relatively small,
it just struck me as odd that they came out the same.
John.
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Aug 2006 15:27:32
From: Don Levey
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > writes:
> On 07 Aug 2006 13:43:39 -0400, <Don_RCB@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >> > I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
> >> > 5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
> >> > gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
> >> > with the add-in) were the same.
> >>
> >> That seems really weird. Theoretically, the gravity couldn't have been the
> >> same if the amount of water changed.
> >>
> > I understand. I'd have expected a slight raise, unless I was
> > driving off some sugars in addition to the water.
>
> I don't think you can drive off sugars during the boil. Were the temps
> the same when you measrured the SG, or did you correctly adjust for the
> different temps? When you topped up the water to reach 5.5 gallons, did
> you make sure that it was evenly dissolved before taking a gravity reading?
> This gets a lot of partial boil extract brewers confused, and is the same
> principle here. The plain water and wort don't want to mix well together,
> and you end up with the heavier wort on the bottom with the water on top.
> It can throw off your SG readings. Normally all-grain brewers don't run
> into this, but mainly because they don't usually top off after the boil.
>
I corrected for each, and made sure to stir before removing for the
second reading (I added to the pot before transferring to the
fermenter). I'm not really worried; I just found it curious.
> I don't think it's anything to really worry about though. The gravity
> difference between 6 gallons and 5.5 gallons should be relatively small,
> it just struck me as odd that they came out the same.
>
Yeah... we'll see how it comes out. I've got a second batch of grain
queued up for another try (this time _with_ the English Brown).
--
Don Levey $ cd /pub
Framingham, MA $ more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to salearn@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
|
| | | | |
Date: 09 Aug 2006 03:01:32
From: Dick Adams
Subject: Re: An odd experience with All-Grain
|
>>>> I lost about a gallon of wort to the boil (evaporation), and wanted
>>>> 5.5 gallons total, so I added another 2 quarts. Interestingly, the
>>>> gravity before the boil (6 gallons) and the gravity afterwards (5.5
>>>> with the add-in) were the same.
>>> That seems really weird. Theoretically, the gravity couldn't have
>>> been the same if the amount of water changed.
>> I understand. I'd have expected a slight raise, unless I was
>> driving off some sugars in addition to the water.
> I don't think you can drive off sugars during the boil. Were the temps
> the same when you measrured the SG, or did you correctly adjust for the
> different temps? When you topped up the water to reach 5.5 gallons, did
> you make sure that it was evenly dissolved before taking a gravity reading?
> This gets a lot of partial boil extract brewers confused, and is the same
> principle here. The plain water and wort don't want to mix well together,
> and you end up with the heavier wort on the bottom with the water on top.
> It can throw off your SG readings. Normally all-grain brewers don't run
> into this, but mainly because they don't usually top off after the boil.
I think you are right on point with the temperature corrections.
> I don't think it's anything to really worry about though. The gravity
> difference between 6 gallons and 5.5 gallons should be relatively small,
> it just struck me as odd that they came out the same.
If the temperature is the same for both gravity readings, you
should expect a 10.99% increase UNLESS you drove off sugars
during the boil.
Dick
|
|
